Originally Posted by Big Time (Post 3576213)

Ouch....

I'm really surpised that there were actually people who didn't at least throw him a bone.... if you can't afford to leave at least a little something, then you probably shouldn't go.

Originally Posted by 4195 (Post 3576236)

I am gonna buy Adams 525's:evilb:

Originally Posted by 4195 (Post 3576167)

We came to the conclusion that we want higher cruising speeds, good mid range and decent top end while keeping reliability and low maintenance costs.

Originally Posted by madhatter42 (Post 3576172)

Bigger power = higher cruise speed...

Your torque/hp numbers go up exponentially however this creates a new predicament. Just because you're running more boost, doesn't mean allot will change...

Big cubic inch gives more torque, for instance, 4000 for a 502 with a blower will make probably in the ball park of 550-600torque at cruise...a 600/632/588/98 will do with a blower, probably around 900torque....hp obviously following, this equates to more cruise speed at a lower rpm. It's not the top end, if you want to cruise fast, you have to over build, but take into consideration, more boost won't necessarily get you there, understand what your blocks are capable of and where your blower kicks in...be it roots or screw it all makes a variation.

Personally I like the acceleration and the ability to have endless power, so therefore building up is the way to go. I've always thought, find where you want to cruise, then figure your top end, add 10-15mph to that, that's what you build your motors to.

It's all about combination, propping etc. Torque is what makes cruise speed, not hp...look at the ilmors...they routinely run 5000+ but they run fine there, more hp than torque...wind em up they'll push the boat but it takes a minute to get there...

My boat runs fine at a cruise, but the hull difference , efficiency, it's a different setup, each setup is unique...if that sheds any light. The original Madhatter was fine @ cruise at 95-100....but the hp difference was drastic...I cruise now 70-80 no issue.....

It's not lugging the motor at 3500-4000...it is at 3k....in my opinion...

You want to let the block breathe, then the boost will do more, if the block is breathing it makes more hp naturally and the boost will go down...then your boost will make a larger difference if you have efficient heads etc.

REMEMBER THIS: FAST, CHEAP, RELIABLE
YOU GET TWO...YOU ONLY EVER GET 2...

if it's fast and cheap it's not reliable....
if it's reliable and cheap, it's not fast...
if it's reliable and fast, it aint cheap...

Originally Posted by kreed (Post 3576214)

Personally, I cant afford big power. High maintainence, high fuel bills, high risk of breakin sh!t, and poor reliability........unless you use quality parts and a quality builder who stands behind his work. Makes all the difference IMO. Really kind of a waste though if your not using the power to its potential..... Example: I love Scots boat, but he would boat the same way with 600HP a side. Besides that,he would save gas, reliability, less maintainence, less worry... So when hes ready to unload those monsters, Ill trade him my 700's and ILL use those things to their potential! Man, am I slamming everone today?...PMS.

Originally Posted by scarab63 (Post 3576231)

Ya I was always under the impression to at least roughly pay for yourself & your guests dinner plate. Then anymore youd like to give is a bonus.
Idk????

Originally Posted by 302Sport (Post 3576282)

Frank bought my 525's and I'm taking his Zul's. The AT should be in the triple digits now boys......

Originally Posted by 302Sport (Post 3576302)

It sounded good though haha.....well you guys are talking about building bigger motors and babying them so they don't blow up. All I'm saying is that even if they don't blow up they still cost more to run, so you mind as well build smaller motors for a lot less money and beat the piss out of them . I would much rather run that civic like it was stolen, than drive a ferrari around like grandma cause I was worried that if I missed one shift my year was over.

Originally Posted by 302Sport (Post 3576266)

You guys are forgetting a big part of the equation which is price of parts and initial purchase price of the motor itself. You can blow up a stock 454 every weekend of the summer and it will prolly cost less to run for the year than an annual freshen up on a pair of 1500's. I guess what I'm saying is that if you are one of the fortunate few to make it through a year running a very hi output motor, it will still cost more than the guy who blew up his little 454 five times.

Originally Posted by 10M (Post 3576273)

I just went through this, got married in September.
Generous people who understand what a wedding costs covered their plates. A few (out of 190) gave a little more. A bunch gave a plate and a half, and more than a few gave $50 or less.

It's tough for anybody like us, who appreciate expensive toys more than expensive ceremonies, to watch that much money kind of dissapear. Luckily I was engaged for a few years and seen it coming, so I got new cockpit upholstery and a few other updates beforehand, and i've already been testing the waters about new motors in the future.

Luckily we came out of it about a wash, although her parents and mine chipped in a few grand. I would be completely bull$hit pissed if I had to take debt for a wedding. I can say that now that I'm done with it :coolcowboy:

Anyways, i'll be back next summer (hopefully) with my rusty old slow motors and a wedding ring. :party-smiley-004:

Originally Posted by madhatter42 (Post 3576359)

Here's one for you too Frank...in the holiday spirit of course...:lolhit:

Originally Posted by 302Sport (Post 3576333)

Justin texted me asking how much for the 525's :eek:

Originally Posted by 4195 (Post 3576332)

I know Scot did not like this post but I think it says alot.

Originally Posted by 302Sport (Post 3576422)

Thus the need for overhead cam motors but for some reason marine engine builders are stuck in the dinosaur age. You guys haven't seen the mind blowing technology these guys are using lately????

- dual 4 barrels
- roots bulldozer superchargers
- distributors
- pushrods

Then for job security they cool it all with salt water to ensure that you will need everything replaced within 3 seasons.

Originally Posted by 302Sport (Post 3576422)

Thus the need for overhead cam motors but for some reason marine engine builders are stuck in the dinosaur age. You guys haven't seen the mind blowing technology these guys are using lately????

- dual 4 barrels
- roots bulldozer superchargers
- distributors
- pushrods

Then for job security they cool it all with salt water to ensure that you will need everything replaced within 3 seasons.

Originally Posted by SS930 (Post 3576416)

Why would I not like it? I'm not at all upset and I'm just giving my input since you seem to be asking for it. My sarcastic reply (which Adam knew I was joking around) was only because his post pointed out the obvious! Of course he it's far cheaper to run a stock 454 that 1500!!! I don't think many of us got into this sport for the economy of it!



I have all the receipts, build sheets, and dyno sheets from the previous owner. He paid someone more to build those engines and rebuild the drives than I paid for the boat. The life expectancy is hard to nail down with big power engines, but they have the potential to last a long time (or an hour like any other engine) if they are maintained and not abused. I choose to not beat the snot out of them because I don't have to run them hard to hang with most people in the area. Every so often I open them up to have a little fun, but there's little need to run WOT when you have that much on tap. When others are pushing their boats at 70-80 mph, my engines are pretty much loafing along. When I switch props I expect to pick up at least 10 mph in the midrange, which will drop the R's down further. If I had 600's I would probably treat them the same way, but I wouldn't be cruising at 70, I'd be cruising at 45 while letting you guys run on ahead.

Regarding the upkeep, I do all my own work so it's basically the cost of the parts and machine work. Tearing down engines is not something I have a lot of time to do, but I don't really mind doing it. The nice thing about BBC's is they are simple engines to work on... But obviously not everyone wants to, or even has the time or mechanical aptitude to do their own work.

Would I have paid all that money to build the engines that are in my boat? No F-ing way! If I were going to build something from scratch I'd probably end up with a real EFI version of something similar to what you're building if I had the drives to handle them. Maybe something a little more exotic. If I started with bravos I would stay under 700 hp or sell the boat and by something with the drives I wanted to run the power level I want to run (it's far cheaper to start off with the basic package you want than to convert everything IMO, but more on that below). But since I got the package I did I'll run them and enjoy them for what they are, but I know full well that they will always require a lot of up keep and will not be as cheap or as reliable to run as Adam's stock 454 analogy.



You have to remember that while big power engines are CAPABLE of making a lot of torque, as you mention it's probably only utilized a small fraction of the time. Only pushing them every so often, running the kind of number we're taking about here should not be an issue for #6 drives, especially in a boat the size of mine. Yes it costs more to rebuild them, but they are pretty much required with 1000+ hp engines and far more reliable than bravo based drives. They offset the cost of spitting a bravo every 20 hours real quick, not to mention have a significant performance advantage. With 800hp engines in a 42' boat, I think you're going to find it more costly to keep buying Bravos than it would be to upgrade them to something more stout, but it will take time for you to realize that cost difference. The alternative is to baby the **** out of it to make them last... which gets you back to your/Adam's point of 'why bother' if you HAVE to baby them.

EDIT: Another critical factor here is resale... selling a big power boat with bravo drives is a real tough sell. Likewise, people are willing to pay a premium for stout drives knowing they wont have to cough up $5k for a bravo every season at these power levels.



At the end of the day there's not much sanity in this type of boating... all but a few of the more privileged on here have to realize this. It all boils down to your priorities and budget regarding the basic three (fast, cheap, and reliable). There's no right answer here, you have to decide for yourself what your desires and goals are. I will say the base you buy into determines a lot of what your options are going forward, which is why I spent as long as I did to purchase my last boat. It basically summarized the overall package I wanted and offered me a decent platform within where I wanted to operate. I wasn't looking for the 'prettiest', biggest, fastest, nicest etc, but it was almost exactly what I was looking for in a overall package (power package, staggared, boat size, condition, and amenities) at a price point I was willing to buy at. I knew going into it that the engines in my boat were going to take some time and money to run. Obviously your priorities and mine (or anyone else's will differ) since I trailer my boats and maintain my own stuff. There are no right or wrong answers here, just individual preferences.

Again, I'm not offended or upset with anyone's posts on this topic, I'm just giving my two cents since you seem to be asking for it... nothing more. :kiss:

Originally Posted by SS930 (Post 3576416)

Why would I not like it? I'm not at all upset and I'm just giving my input since you seem to be asking for it. My sarcastic reply (which Adam knew I was joking around) was only because his post pointed out the obvious! Of course he it's far cheaper to run a stock 454 that 1500!!! I don't think many of us got into this sport for the economy of it!



I have all the receipts, build sheets, and dyno sheets from the previous owner. He paid someone more to build those engines and rebuild the drives than I paid for the boat. The life expectancy is hard to nail down with big power engines, but they have the potential to last a long time (or an hour like any other engine) if they are maintained and not abused. I choose to not beat the snot out of them because I don't have to run them hard to hang with most people in the area. Every so often I open them up to have a little fun, but there's little need to run WOT when you have that much on tap. When others are pushing their boats at 70-80 mph, my engines are pretty much loafing along. When I switch props I expect to pick up at least 10 mph in the midrange, which will drop the R's down further. If I had 600's I would probably treat them the same way, but I wouldn't be cruising at 70, I'd be cruising at 45 while letting you guys run on ahead.

Regarding the upkeep, I do all my own work so it's basically the cost of the parts and machine work. Tearing down engines is not something I have a lot of time to do, but I don't really mind doing it. The nice thing about BBC's is they are simple engines to work on... But obviously not everyone wants to, or even has the time or mechanical aptitude to do their own work.

Would I have paid all that money to build the engines that are in my boat? No F-ing way! If I were going to build something from scratch I'd probably end up with a real EFI version of something similar to what you're building if I had the drives to handle them. Maybe something a little more exotic. If I started with bravos I would stay under 700 hp or sell the boat and by something with the drives I wanted to run the power level I want to run (it's far cheaper to start off with the basic package you want than to convert everything IMO, but more on that below). But since I got the package I did I'll run them and enjoy them for what they are, but I know full well that they will always require a lot of up keep and will not be as cheap or as reliable to run as Adam's stock 454 analogy.



You have to remember that while big power engines are CAPABLE of making a lot of torque, as you mention it's probably only utilized a small fraction of the time. Only pushing them every so often, running the kind of number we're taking about here should not be an issue for #6 drives, especially in a boat the size of mine. Yes it costs more to rebuild them, but they are pretty much required with 1000+ hp engines and far more reliable than bravo based drives. They offset the cost of spitting a bravo every 20 hours real quick, not to mention have a significant performance advantage. With 800hp engines in a 42' boat, I think you're going to find it more costly to keep buying Bravos than it would be to upgrade them to something more stout, but it will take time for you to realize that cost difference. The alternative is to baby the **** out of it to make them last... which gets you back to your/Adam's point of 'why bother' if you HAVE to baby them.

EDIT: Another critical factor here is resale... selling a big power boat with bravo drives is a real tough sell. Likewise, people are willing to pay a premium for stout drives knowing they wont have to cough up $5k for a bravo every season at these power levels.



At the end of the day there's not much sanity in this type of boating... all but a few of the more privileged on here have to realize this. It all boils down to your priorities and budget regarding the basic three (fast, cheap, and reliable). There's no right answer here, you have to decide for yourself what your desires and goals are. I will say the base you buy into determines a lot of what your options are going forward, which is why I spent as long as I did to purchase my last boat. It basically summarized the overall package I wanted and offered me a decent platform within where I wanted to operate. I wasn't looking for the 'prettiest', biggest, fastest, nicest etc, but it was almost exactly what I was looking for in a overall package (power package, staggared, boat size, condition, and amenities) at a price point I was willing to buy at. I knew going into it that the engines in my boat were going to take some time and money to run. Obviously your priorities and mine (or anyone else's will differ) since I trailer my boats and maintain my own stuff. There are no right or wrong answers here, just individual preferences.

Again, I'm not offended or upset with anyone's posts on this topic, I'm just giving my two cents since you seem to be asking for it... nothing more. :kiss:

Originally Posted by 302Sport (Post 3576605)

Rhr post some pics of ur rig with ur best bow ornaments. We gotta see what you midwesterners are working with