Results of the 750 vs 850 debate
 

With the thread disappearing off the OSS section and the birth of this new section, were there any results to what to do to bring the class back together?

pat W

That is 99% if you are looking at the glass almost empty.

You have the people that want to tinker and the people that want to take their boat in for service and a wax job.

This is racing isn't it or is it just a show.

pat W

I think the results of this thread are that unless you are puckering up and kissing the right hind quarters you can't write what is on your mind.

Gregg Reichman

Is that any 850 hp motor or Just a Merc? Is this along the lines of racing european style, Rudders ect...????

pat W

Only Merc 850, and i think only merc 6. If it was any 850 and any drive/rudder, it would be an awesome class.

The question was about the future of the sport. 850 hp ok, 750 ok. However you want to achieve that blown/aspirated/diesel V8/v10/v12 ect.... The ilmors are already 700 so it would not be a stretch to run 2 of those.

Or is this still dinosaur protection / guaranteed retirement fund for the guys in the straw hats.

pat W:hitfan:

Pat the Pro Series got its start because most of us had multiple sets of 750 motors and did not want to change to the Mercury 850 motors at a huge cost. Are group will look at any boat that would like to run with us, just have them get in touch with Bob, Tony, or Tom

Pat,

I think you are right...the crux of this discussion is about the future of the sport.

Mechanical based equipment and racing rules are dinosaurs…and about to become extinct. As we have seen in the P-Classes here in the States and P-1 in Europe, performance based rules using technology to monitor equipment to assure all competitors are competing within certain parameters is where everything is headed.

We have the technology to monitor everything from speed to RPM to acceleration. With rules based on these parameters, and a consistent monitoring system, it doesn't make any difference what engine package or drive system a Team uses...as long as they compete within the parameters of the performance based rules.

When we move to performance based rules (which I predict will be very soon) we will see very competitive racing with a myriad of manufacture's equipment being placed into the mix. We will bring back the tinkerers and guys working in their shops late into the night tweaking engine and drive systems they have built...instead being dependant on the designers of some one-size-fits-all engine/drive package that the corporate bean counters think will improve profits.

Back in the day when all we had was engine timing controlled by springs and weights in the distributor and fuel flow determined by the size of the jets in the carburetor...we didn't have GPS systems, data loggers, or on-board telemetry. Now this is standard equipment for every competitive team…and it is available at a very reasonable cost. For under $2k you can equip a boat with the latest GPS and data logger that will monitor and record everything from throttle position to the time it takes to go from 60 to 1000.

Teams will have the option to run either carbureted or ECM/PCM controlled engines with or without blowers...as long as they can maintain their equipment to perform within the performance criteria.

Now, before someone goes into orbit about controlling speed as part of the performance based rules....speed does not have to be controlled. With a boat that is set up to run within maximum RPM and acceleration criteria...there is no need for a speed limit...racecourse conditions will determine the maximum speed a boat can attain. It then comes down to the driver/throttleman abilities and ergonomics in the cockpit...not the brand/model of boat, engine, or drive system.

This is the future of Offshore racing...and something we should all embrace. It's time to quit thinking like a dinosaur and move on...into the rest of 21st Century.

record everything from throttle position to the time it takes to go from 60 to 1000. :p

I WANT TO SEE THAT BOAT!!
JK KEN
MIKE

Mike.

At the moment I wrote that line, I was thinking of you and your dad :eureka:

I feel so bad for you guys having to take the 850s or zip, I talked to a friend who left after 03 or 04 there were 2teams one f2, supercat, ones racing cars the other fishing with a very big boat. I hope to watch you guys next yr at the opa races and hope I maybe back. but your right about having those 750hps he had 6 motors for each season thats alot of cake. good luck art

Bill,
I know the reason behind the formation of the Pro series. I am looking for the direction.

I talked to Tony the other day to see if he was going to make it out here for Pittsburg this weekend.(NO) So I am Going to Primm to watch the offroad race its closer. We were talking about the worlds and I got to thinking after that then what??

What did you do with the diesel vee?

Ken,

If you want to run distributors and carburators or efi or a model T coil should be up to the individual not a dictatorship.

If you want to run the data it can be easily sent to the helicopters and stored or sent to shore for the tv broadcast so you can add some more detail to the tv. You might as well have a smell sensor to see when the guy craps his pants. By the look of the OB photos that happened alot. Good TV.

pat W

mike,
i believe it was craig arfons who tried that one at sebring. not a good day

Pat the race boat went overseas and the lighting is in Miami with it's new owner. The Pro Series plan for next year is still in the planing, should be better with more races over all groups. Wish we were coming to Pittsburg this weekend but we are still repairing the tramson from Sarasota. Hope to see ya in Key West.

I hope to see you in Key West. We have several teams coming to play. It should be fun.

Come next year for the Rum Run too.

pat W

That may happen

LOL, how did I miss this line before...


anyways back on point. I was trying to quickly explain to a classmate what happened with the supercat class but I didnt have enough time to fully get into it. Is there any factual description as to what happened when and why???
Thanks
-Rick

fact. Anyone can build and rebuild 750 motors several teams with lots of motors.

fact. The 850 company needs money, wants rebuilds all in house( no outside builders ) plus new motor sales and rebuilds on drives for new ratios and prop sales. Lets see 5 teams minimum 3 to 4 motors per team =$$$$$$$$$ several non supercat teams claim to race new 850 class.....

last straw. Shaft boat 1st place in first race (Destin) 2nd place a (Chuck engine, Weismann drive, boat ) not sure who was 3rd. No chance for sponsor to win (pulled lots of strings)= DQ 2nd place boat for 3 inches after being teched all year. I do not know what engine builder was in the 1st place boat. Easier to beat only one boat but it did not happen.

This was all covered in great detail by Powerboat, Extremeboat and H2o ...... sorry I made a mistake, they all had written that they had "no info at the time of publication" on their coverage of the races. I am sure they have filled in the blanks since then.

pat W

What about the 3 cats in Chattanooga, 3 different motors, and the mercury 750 won, coincidence??? How many seasons has that motor been running in SVL?? If its the boat I'M thinking it has been very successful with that motor! and OB torn up a lot of equipment! As for the 850 motors there hasnt been a rebuild yet!

Pete let me know when he gets the $58,000 bill for the pair.

Tom see ya in Key West next week

Tom,
When that happens maybe just another boat will leave the ranks due to cost! Again it will be the fans that suffer the fate of a political agenda.

So what is the solution? I believe just about every combination of motor/ drives etc, have been tried, and the end result has been someone has a huge advantage over the others, then money comes into play, then another mass exodus from the sport!

If the intrests of a individual is not to run Mercury racing parts, there are many options, including where you race. One of the many reasons poker runs have been so popular to the extremely wealthy, why risk life and limb for a $10 TROPHY.

But in the world of racing SC is money really a issue????
Common sense should dictate whether one can afford to run a SC.

MHO the best racing is in SCL and SVL, and thats where the sport needs to grow.

Are you going to KW??

With that being said why not go to Destin, at least there will be boats to compete against, and if it is the last hoorah, then be a part of the show.

What ever the inevitable is! I sure hope that we dont have a bunch of one boat classes, And the only races are a bunch of old resin buckets, with a few ego maniacs guiding the way.

Glad I enjoy drag boats too!

I think the people that have the money to own a Super Cat are not about to throw away money if they do not have too. Not that many people with that kind of money make bad business choices. Not ego maniacs just people watching how they spend their money. Trying to enjoy racing without breaking the bank not a bad idea.

Restricted racing (no tinkering)
SCL. With that you get severely underpowered racing with no room for error. The events that took place at LOTO , 4 accidents because the boats are being pushed too hard in the corner. What is the solution to that? Rudders? Race in a straight line without turns? Great big circle tracks? I am sure that what happened there was just a fluke. I am sure if there was a choice then all the boats would be running the same set-up they are restricted to now.

What fun is it knowing you have an unsafe ride coming, knowing that you cannot change your setup enough to stop the problem.

pat W

With all this knowledge of what works and doesnt work, you guys should get together invest some money and start your own professional series, Hell especially on the west coast where offshore is really hurting, you have the engine builders out there, boat builders, put up some prize money. and they will be beating the doors down.!

[QUOTE=Smiklos;2315568]I did that already. Remember the LLC? We had all of that - boat builders, racers, prize money, sponsors - until the boycott, remember? I don't think I am up for doing that again. Maybe you know somebody who has the money and will do it???

Steve[/QUOTE

Come on one more time, you only live once, and you cant take it with you. Just a SVL series, not Cats, no Super vee,
Just lights two days of racing fun, 10 times a year.

Poo call me

Steve,

The initial thought of the LLC. was ok. All boats ok, engines ok, drives ok, props ok, just guidelines. based around cost reduction ect....Then you started playing favorites.:rolleyes:

Was it greed, power or shortsidedness?

In 08 you should make a point of coming back to California for the Rum Run and a couple of other races for fun, like it used to be before the LLC. I am recruiting people to beat Kooper. :ernaehrung004:

pat W

Shortsidedness is the answer then or is it power to waive the magic wand.

If our products were not an advantage then why were we banned?

If you spent any time near our products you would know that there are no 90 degree changes.

Don't worry about us going mainstream that only takes time and money. We were very content racing and we still are. It is entertaining and a way for us to explore new things, you know think, problem solve, invent.

If you come to the Rum Run next year I will take you on a tour of our shop.

It is time for me to fade.

pat W

Steve,

We have been producing product to the public for 41 years. My grandfather,father and mother, and now my brother and I. I have been designing, building, and maintaining our products in offshore since 1988.

Have a look at our website www.weismann.net

Our products speak for themselves.

I have not done a single engine vee yet but that is on my list of things to do.

fading away again,

pat W

In 2001 we were homologated by the LLC for the Weismann WSD drive (ragamuffin), W2k 13.5 dropbox (tommy bahama), 9.0 dropbox, 4.5 dropbox and zero dropbox. Obviously we fit the criteria at the time. Forsale to the general public and private (gov). Always has been always will be.

Then the club rules were set. We were out, arneson, bpm, trimax ect.... boat companies that were building shaft drive boats (platinum) ...... for $350,000. You are homologated... oh wait we made a deal.....

In 1996 we did a boat that was 5 or 6 years old that had finished 8th the previous year and dominated all of 96. The investment was small and he sold the boat for more then it had cost him(gain on investment).

The super spec club classes are ruining/diluting the sport. Return to what was working in 95/96. Atleast you would have a chance to compete with an older boat... All the engine/drive deal did was to focus performance on a new hull.

pat W

pat is one of a few innovators left. he can and will do what he pleases and we support his efforts. he has alway and still does support his teams. still supporting peppers racing after 12 years, and we still own his dry sump drives. one day someone will realize that competition breeds innovation.
both of you guys are a wealth of info, i have been there with and against.
i want this more than anyone to work out. i am the one that will lose because i live and breath this sport we are all passionate about.
dad and i are one of a few left from the good old days of racing offshore and we want to continue.
mike

Do you mind saying which ones??

Motley Crew is 3 years old and they have quite a few checkered flags, Popeyes is 3 years old and runs in the front,
I dont think SCL is a good choice on class.

However SV on the other hand,
If the sport was to become main stream, how long should a boat be racing in the top ranks???

I likened to any other motorsport, one year and the vehicle is usually done.

There are some old boats winning in P-class, but it was always my understanding that P-class was a starter class?
and the Idea was for teams to step up to the pro series classes.

[QUOTE][Start with most of the MTI's I am a MTI fan but currently it is hard to win in one. Motley crew is the leading edge of the newer skaters./QUOTE]

Motley Crew is a 3 year old boat,
Peppers is in the second year
Popeyes is a 2003
Lets Play a 2004
Teague is the newest boat 2007
Propstop is a 2006
All Jacked up 2003
MTI's
Reliable 2006
Team Shocker 2007
Leaning the ropes 2006
Aerospeed Marine 2001

All these boats except for teagues and Shocker have been around for a few years, and on any given Sunday they can win, Reliable led most of the race in LOTO, and on the last couple laps the Crew caught them. I give credit to the Ron and scott, They are Competitor's, and its nothing against Reliable or any of the SCL teams, they test hard and race hard, every SCL race I have seen is a showdown. the battle for the first pin to improve position. As you well know its about set-up, and doing youre homework. The teams that do the most are the most successful. It si the most exciting class in the sport, second is SVL , because the boats are close in speed and it comes down to the crew in the boat.
One mistake and a checkered flag is out of grasp.

Cost is up no doubt, Hot ECM's, HMMMM I dont know about that, but as I said before there are some talented teams out there and some not willing to push the enevelope.

You are correct, SCL, just like Indy Lights, Unlimited lights, supercross lights(125'S), are not cheap. But look what some of the one boat in a class teams have in cost per race. It really comes down to can the team afford to race a particular class or are they in over their head??

The sport hasnt let me down, I will say certain personalities in offshore have brought the sport down as whole with their percieved "OWN" personal agenda's! As for Nascar their attendance is down this year, and the Busch series and truck series didnt do well either. Some of the smaller NHRA classes are feeling the money crunch as well.

No Matter where one races, if they dont have a snowballs chance in hell to win they wont race. SVL has been very consistant in providing fair racing, and its anyones race to be won. testing and set-up, along with a little luck and skill mixed in, we will see this week.

Why hasnt anyone jumped

The SVL fleet is all pretty close in racing, no one has walked away from the rest, and this New design could be tomorrows purchase. As for the ecm's stuff, While there are a few that cheat and in the end, Karma will works its magic there it always does.

Billy M. bought Ragamuffin half way through the season. We were not allowed to run the homologated (WSD) drives on another boat. The "one drive manufacture" only rule was already in full swing.

Platinum had a rudder boat in construction boat #1 for Forrest and Johnny. It was a BPM plug type with our dropbox. The hull was cored and under vacuum. There was some major B.S. around this subject. Why would Andreas refuse to let you see the boat?

Fabio came in and destroyed a and b and d class because he had a superior product. Your right shame on him for pushing the envelope and reading the rules. Arrest development, forget that the public has boats and benefits from development. That makes total sence.

Revisionist..... I like that . We learn from our past.

You keep ignoring facts. We build complete drive systems. We continue to explore and develope new ideas despite narrow minded self appointed officials.

The reason I started this thread is because of the 850 proposal that came into play at the end of last year. I did not start this to discuss the complete failure of the LLC and why.

But it does show how the sport declined after the "drive rule".

What was the SC boat count in St.Pete in 2000?

What was it last year?

How many of the people that were competing in 2000 (SC class) are still racing?

pat W