P1 Evolution class
 

EVOLUTION= The natural process of growth and change, development.

I know there are some people going over there for the Cowes race and maybe they could ask some questions for me.

Why are the rules against multispeeds?

Are there any rules against ethanol or alternative fuels?

Who can I contact in regards to the rules? Is it a commitee or a person?

Thanks,
pat W

I contacted Steve via email [email protected] and he called me back the very next day. He was very helpful and informative and took plenty of time to discuss my inquiries.

I wonder this too.

I would want someone to ask the "Orange Yanmar" Boat what they have for a transmission as they are a ZF team boat and ZF does have a 2 speed transmission for the Yanmar 480 that they are running.

So if they are in deed running a 2 speed, then why not 3 or 4 or 8 speeds?

pat as far as i can see and read . they are taking 130 mph boats and SLOWING THEM TO 87 MPH . big thrill yea haw .

I would much rather watch a fair and balanced race of 11 teams competing for a Championship Title than spend thousands of dollars to go to Key West only to see what was supposed to be the fastest vee bottom in the world idle across a start line by itself, and claim a World Championship Title without even completeing 1 lap.

I don't hear the teams overseas complaining about the speed cap. In fact in only 1 race was a team able to actually break out over it. Remember, it is rare that they don't run in huge seas !

Super Vee Class in the States has only been averaging 87.6 mph at best without the speed cap. Some difference huh?

Also remember Powerboat P1 is also about producing a TV Product. Having 1 or 2 boats blow away the pack doesn't make for close racing or good TV. Hopefully all 100 Million homes that it ends up in by the end of the year will tune in ...

Powerboat P1 seems to be working.
2 Classes 20+ boats and growing.
Large TV Production
and strict, fair & competitive rule enforcement.

Perhaps some people should have a look at why it is working so well....

Well put sharkey.
I guess we pissed P1 off by running away with the race in Germany. But...if Outerlimits engines would have lasted, it could have been a good race.
The Tv hits Sky sports the thursday after the race, and runs for three days at 6.00 pm!!!!
Sharkey is right, maybe people should start looking why its working so well and bring it to the US.

P1 On Speedchannel
 

You guys in the States will get coverage of the whole 2007 Powerboat P1 series on Speedchannel but not until the autumn. I understand that the programmes will run every week. Once I have more details, I'll try and let you know. It's a damn good production and worth the wait.

No one can judge MPH by looking at the boats run. The mph cap is to keep the boats in a competative range. Adding weight is not always a good idea. They should look at giving the other non competative boats an edge in weight loss to make them better.

With EFI it is very easy to move a rev limiter with an overide button. You can hide it 20 pages in the code. Ask Frank D. about traction control in F1. The claims of sealed motors is funny.

The thing I was bringing up is that the TV content is limited by the rules. There is not much story behind the boats except the nice paint job.

Tight rules is what killed the super vee over here. The factory backed teams can afford to build a new boat every year leaving the average racer on the trailer not wanting to play.

I watched Reggie's boat run last year at Reggieville. It was very impressive and what the sport needs. It was impressive for the lap that it ran.

Progressive rules are good for growth in a sport, it is good for advertising or including other potential teams or manufactures.

pat W

It is working well, hell great, in Europe b/c they have an open race organization.

In the states every time we have a good class with a lot of boats and strong competition, Mercury comes in and works some political stuff, makes it a Mercury only class and then the class dies.

One cannot use SCL as an example as it was always a factory class from the start; look at what happened to SC now that it was made a Mercury only class. SV died as well when the racers found out that the cheap racing did not exist with the 525 either.

Every great racing era in the states was when the RULES allowed for competition amongst Boat Manufacturers, Engine Manufacturers, Propeller Manufacturers, Outdrive Manufacturers and the RACERS.

It sounds like they need to make a break out speed (117mph) Max like P1 over here not the 87 mph average. That way they can make the finish just as good as the race. It is a shame that Fainplast did not race on Sunday. I do not know how they will make that look right on TV.

Any answers to the first questions?
Thanks,
pat W

Well at the conditions we run it is better to slow down than the drivers find it out too late...
We have True offshore racing here.

Making P1 Work
 

Having to run to a set break-out speed in P1 has proved a problem this year for the series organisers. While boats have got quicker through better competition and design, the sea states we've had here in Europe so far (Malta aside) have been unusually calm. Apparently it's an insurance issue with the UIM (the world governing body) that prevents P1 from letting us run as fast as we like (or averaging over 87 MPH in Evo for example) and that's something we can't changed in mid season. So we've all been trying to find a solution and, following the farce that occured in the Friday Cowes race, we all agreed with the P1 organisers on race morning that for the Sunday race, we'd all do a parade lap, the timing clock would start and this would become part of the race. This gave us a lot of 'time credit' as the opening lap was slow and allowed us all to then run flat out to the finish. Sounds crazy at first but it resolved a tricky situation and was approved by the UIM officials. As race teams we all owe it to ourselves to get it right because the investment that P1 has put into this series must be in excess of $20M so far and they are committed to spend more to make it work. We shouldn't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

hehehe you and shark must be kin why not use 496 or 350 why go to a 662 hp . true offshore who cares a pleasure boat will out run you .

Hey Robbie,

Why not get your own organization's act together before you start giving advice to a FIN ! :rolleyes:

P1 Powerboat has cured the situation of break out speeds for the moment.
They are doing their best to keep the competition close.
And from what I hear for next year, no one will have a chance at cheating !

The laptops can be left at the dock !:throw:

Chris,

Thanks for the explanation on the insurance. The rule was always said to be about safety not insurance.

Doug,

A,B class were changed to Factory 1 and 2. It was thriving before the class was moved to a one engine show. Engine builders are what supported racing in the states. OPA and SBI are proving that. When they went to a national series it hurt the little guys.

We raced a 10 yr old Scarab (Lucas Oil) against new boats and did very well. It was written out of the rules by OSS and SBI (SV). The drivetrain was not allowed on the new hull. only product that was not a threat to Merc.

We did the same with a 5 year non competative old boat called Zerodefect. 11 wins in 11 races US1 and World Champion was the result of that season. There were several of the same characters involved in the rule changes from the APBA days that are still making the rules today.

It is not hard to make the older boats competative. It is not that expensive either.

P1 is doing well and has heavy backing. If some mods to the rules are made it will continue to grow.

Sharky, Robbie is a fan. He likes Superboats. There is only one of those right now. Until someone challenges Reggie, he is #1. I thought Buzzi might step up but he is now an employee of Brunswick so I doubt it.

As far as cheating goes they need to have some hefty fines and loss of points and a stockade in order to have some deterent.

If you want I can start a thread on the long list of things (grey area) I have seen over the years. It might be fun.

pat W

enlighten us pat. or just email me the answers please:cool-smiley-011:

2000,2001,2005 with the old 1996 skater PEPPERS. SORRY BUT TRUE, WE HAD TO BUY A NEW ONE FOR IT TO LAST 11 YEARS.

Doug, Thanks for the compliment.

2 of the 5 LLC owners were our customers. There were some major players involved on the tech commitee and a group of newcomers (racers) that were afraid that their investment was for nothing because they had the wrong package. They were easily swayed with big words like Parity were thrown around and Spec boats , hulls , props , ect....could make them champions. They could not throw out the engine builders right away because they were giving money(sponsors). That was only tried recently. The props were next. Very systematic.

We are a very small company and we cannot afford to support a series, only assist our customers.

Multispeeds,
They can help equalize the difference between boats now and reduce cost on propellers. It makes the boat safer and helps with missing the prop selection. Easier on the motor, i.e. getting on plane, abilty to set rpm range for a state ect...

We have run them in various configurations and complexity. The early boxes were on carburated motors then efi then diesel. Now we are making multispeed drop boxes in-line (input / output)2 - 6 speeds. We run a separate trans controller so we can shift just about every type of motor. Turbines are tough but we think we can do that too.

The cost of a gearset $750 per trans. Do it yourself labor. Try that with a #6 drive ratio change, you fill in the amount. Then cost a prop.

If everyone has it you can restrict the amount of gears or ratio or pitch of prop to equalize the competition.

SCL, early boats suffered from bravo drives late boats suffer from cost of drive units and need for a new hull to be competative. The latest motors are better than early ones. The latest boat is now the winner. I guess there was no advantage knowing everyones set-up, prop dia and pitch, gear ratio, drive height, driveshaft length, weight dry and wet..... must be talent. It would be cool to see a rudder boat with 8100's(496's) and multispeeds. What then......diversity, competition, cost reduction safety. I like driving rudder boats.

The hull over time accumulates water and damage. People overwash the hulls on the inside. They are not sealed. I drilled into the transom of Don Q once to mount a speedo and it peed out the hole for 15 minutes. They delam warp in the sun ect.. In classes where you are restricted on power the hull problems are more evident. So keeping the hulls competative is easy allow more power to older boats or multispeeds or weight advantage.

OK, Buzzi killed "a" class. It needed to evolve into a safer class. Somethings need to die in order to progress. I think the canopys are under designed and in need of a serious redesign to make them safer. They are a good wind deflector at best. Just tear along the dotted line.

Just think if these current thoughts were around when the first cat was layed up. We would still be looking at magnums and scarabs ect.....

Back to Evolution, is it a big word or a statement for the future?

pat W

Saying that Rudders should not be allowed as Mercury does not make them is not a valid nor smart outlook.

OSS is Mercury ONLY, so why would/could/should anyone else want to step in and spend $$ that would not revert to sales? Mercury giving back to the racers is only right as the racers have no choice in the matter in the first place and it is a payback for allowing it to be that way and actually in some ways makes people want to belive it is the better this way.

This all started well before OSS where Mercury gained an exclusive behind closed doors and that mentality went to the OSS as well.

Pat has valid points, most racers will agree BUT no one wants to do anything other than Merc.

This is a problematic symptom of American Racing.

First, there is no such thing as a subsidize racing. Mercury does not give the racers the engines, the drives, the propellers or anything else.

The racers in fact pay for their equipment. Contention $$ are not enough to pay for the equipment even if the racer won every race. Mercury also voids any of the items from warranty if they were raced.

The beauty of P1 Racing is that it does not rely upon a single manufacturer. They are a bunch of independent racers racing what they think is the best package available to them and this is what makes for greeat competition.

Class 1 does not have the problems that America has, rather they are facing a technology situation whereby the series is becoming cost prohibitive and the field is shrinking. Pro V never got off the ground.

Inspection covers. Clear if you want. Cut grooves in the O.D. of the gear to tell at a glance what ratio it is. One groove (1.63) two grooves (1.69) ect.... Pretty simple.

I think that all you have to do to get the teams to come over is to offer 3 races with a substantial prize for the top three in the races offered double points for the final race. That would make 6 races in the 3 weekends. These races would then count towards the overall world championship. If you have 5 us boat companies sponsoring, and some drive manufactures (hint Rik), prop companies, then the prize money would be there.

It is not that hard. Just because the US racing is down it does not mean that you need to support it. Most of the time the sponsor money went into the wrong pockets (not the racers). That need to change.

The P1 circuit has some very good qualities and those are obvious from the TV shows and their website.

pat W

I do not think that prize money was for one or two classes. If it was for 6 (p) classes and the top three in each class, there would not be enough benefit in going.

We have a couple of projects that are in the works for pleasure boats. There are not that many people that want to be the first at doing something. This is not easy but we are very close. I am thankfull to the patience of my customers. We are constantly navigating uncharted water.

With the multi speed you can make the propeller more efficient to have the same speed for less rpm with a given ratio. Most props are cut in diameter, pitch, or cup to get on plane. It equates to a drag torque converter, high stall speed less top end. Being able to back off and cruze a boat is next to impossible. It is always going up hill, there is 7 times density in water so you will slow down.

Less classes= more prize money. Pro and Am Vee and Pro and Am Cat. 2 races on Saturday (Vee then Cat) and 2 on Sunday. Unless catkiller wants to do all 4 races.:food-smiley-007:

pat W

With (3) teams not racing in Belgium Wettpunk,Fainplast,Kiton (all diesel boats) has there been any open discussion or is it all behind closed doors on what to do about he obvious difference between the boats?

pat W

That is the point. P1 is NOT offshore racing but endurance racing.
.

Come over here and try your luck with a pleasureboat....:food-smiley-007:

Remember I have raced a pleasure fountain over here, maybe even twice. The First and Last.

Yes , indeed P1 can change rules from one year to another.
Certainly P1 do not want to change rules during the year.
In fact P1 can change a lot of rules, even major ones but there are 3 major things P1 cannot change according to the contract with UIM : Open top boats, V-hulls and fact that we are under Pleasure Navigation rules. Consequently the av speed limit is part of that.

Vipermax,

Are there any discussions on the P1 rules for next year. See post #1 and 28.

thanks,
pat W

???

Vipermax,

Thanks for the info.

Will you put something up here or contact me after the Portugal race so we can get an idea of how the rule will effect our new packages for next year?

Thanks,

pat W