Y2K/Arneson
 

I am thinking of changing my Bravo XR drive to a Arneson drive. Y2K Single BB. Rik, Jcap, FX-10.??? Any thoughts ??? :D

Does this boat really need a lot of positive trim?

Have they put inserts in the mold to make the bottom carry itself better?

I am not concerned with getting on plane, running, steering, docking, running or handling or even the power as you aren't going to break it.

With the new Merc 18 degree rake propellers you will get quite a bit of bow lift from them, or even Herings 18 degree rake propellers make a huge difference.

But if the boat needs a ton of positive trim, cannot run a high X dimension Bravo due to bow height concerns then there is only so much that a propeller can do for the bow height in flat sticky water.

15k actually doesnt seem like such a bad deal for the package .Helm steering extention box drive mid plate. You still have to pay for installation. OH yes and props Not cheap and not alot around to demo. My prop shaft with the speedy is 1.5 below with a 9 inch notch transom. Your going to need a big diameter prop ,at least 17.5 with the shaft at even or 1 above the bottom.Also 4 or even 5 blades! Thats a 4-5k prop. The height of the notch is probably also around 9 inches because you have to measure the thickness of the flat spot that goes back 9 inches. You need room for the box bolts on the inside. Trimming the drive down to get clean water will put it at a bad angle and push the nose down. My thoughts are the notch has to be filled. Gary post a picture of the notch ! I myself had a good day short morning blast at 94.

Your gonna get shafted:evilb:

Rik, to reach top rpm the drive does need to be trimed up.

A shot of the notch.

I recently saw a 27' Excalibur down at the boat launch with a surface drive; don't know if it was a Kama or Arenson.
This is a pretty similar hull to the Super and the shaft came out real low on the transom, no notch.
I didn't have time to BS with the guy, but if I see it again, I'll take some time.

Unfortunately, the notch is too large to mount the Arneson without modifying it.

The Arneson would mount too high to be correct.

What is your propeller shaft height in comparison to the bottom of the boat?

See a picture is worth a thousand words !! Rick see how high the drain plug is in the back ! The bottoms pretty thick ! If the notch was filled would the thickness of the floor still be a problem for bolting on the box ?

3-1/2 to 4 inches.

This does not sound like an easy unbolt and bolt up conversion.

Hey G., new hull for 2008?

Not really. Our standoff box does not mount the bottom of the boat. Close but not the bottom.

Depending upon the transom angle, the height of the box will be some 3" off the bottom of the boat.

That is deep.

By example: a 382 Formula has a 2.5-3" below the bottom depth.

I've heard the Superboat 30' needs a lot of bow lift. The best way to make this work would be an insert in the mold to add some Rocker to the bottom. Then the boat would run as good as it looks.

Superboat did modify the steps in mold/hull last year. The new design has proved to run much faster.
There are (2) 2007 30' Supers powered by a Merc 525EFI Bravo XR running 83-84mph. That is up from the old 30' that topped out at 78-79mph with the same 525.
I'd say the new 30' hull is dialed in...:D

Rik, thanks for jumping into this thread. I am sure Rick ( Superboat shop mananger ) will step in with some ideas. After all if I go surface drive and any mods are needed to my Y2K hull bottom it will be Rick who does the work. :D Thanks again Gary

No problem.

I want everyone to go into things with a wide open point of view, not just the rumors of a friend of a friend who has a cousin somewhere who...

A 5 mph increase in speed is a huge jump in a bottom design.

This "Rick" person should know what they have done to accomplish the speed gains and should be able to convey what you would have to do to see these gains.

As I stated, the drive can take what ever power you build, you will not have any problems docking, steering or running. I don't feel getting on plane will be a concern either.

Garry,
Have you broken a drive? If not then why are you wanting to spend so much money? I don't get it. I'm on two seasons with 800hp and a XR in the same boat. Ya maybe it will break some day and I will have to spend 4k to fix it.

It's called the need for speed !! ;)

Tom, I did a rebuild on the xr over the winter. I am thinking about the surface drive for not only the bigger hp I can put in the boat, but for perhaps a speed gain with the surface drive system ???:cool-smiley-011:

Rik,
Thanks for coming to the thread. This is a project that I would love to see take place.
As Pat said, I redesigned the steps a year and a half ago. Going from 3 to 2 steps. I removed the forward step and designed a picklefork step for the rear step, which I also incorporated a rocker into. The new bottom is going 5-6 MPH faster then the first generation Y2K's.
I have a few questions.
You said the Formula's shafts are 2.5-3" under the bottom. If you bolted your ASD6 drive, w/extension box, where would the shaft height be ?
If I'm not mistaken, Gary's (Superbabi) shaft is approx 4" under the bottom. Since his shaft is deeper then the Formula to start with, wouldn't he have no problem ??
Also.Compared to a Bravo gimble housing, and using the same holes. How much lower does the ASD6 extension box extend ? I believe Gary has approx 3-3.5 inches under his housing.

RIK the new bottom is introducing some more air to the bottom to free it up abit. The idea was not to fly the boat on the last 2 feet of the boat like a hydrosteam, That would be real bad in rough water, but to free up the bottom keeping some lenght in the water so it can run fast a stable in rough water. Although I havent been in a new one YET!
As far as steering the Arneson has the same turning radious as the bravo lock to lock, say 90* ? I know the props pretty far off the back . And going fast I see it a plus but around the dock I see a minus. For Gary it would be like docking a 35 footer with a single ! Wind catching the bow ! Breakout the bumpers ! OUCH

Mike, Gary's lucky enough to live on one of these 100' wide canals which has a fork in it 2 houses back from his. Turning and docking isn't a problem. Plenty of room there.

I am sorry, but I cannot follow the logic that the drive being longer makes the boat more difficult to dock in the wind when the drive is below the water line.

The boat size does not change, and anything under the water is not affected by the wind.

In fact, the longer the drive, the more mechanical leverage the drive has and hence the reason that my drives are docking and steering better than their I/O counterparts.

As for propeller centerline, with a surface drive, the propeller shaft will be at the water level, or around 4" higher than it currently is with this Bravo setup.

The engine would stay in its same location, I do not know the center distance between a Bravo input/output so I do not know where it currently resides.

But, our standoff box is the starting point in our install and it mounts in the area where the notch is so that is what I am referring to when looking at the photos.

For a Bravo 1 drive, the CL distance between the engine crank shaft an the prop shaft is slightly under 23 inches.

Rik post some picks of a single engine application please something other than crazy georges donzi !

I do not have many photos as no one ever sends a photo for some reason.

I will ask the customers for them.

wow, those arneson tabs look like they keep things real steady! :eek:

Rik, thats a real nice set up !!!! How much HP going into the drive ??

I am not certain of the power, I think it had somewhere between 1000-1200.

Know motor made over 1250 on the dyno but I do not know how much he took out of it.

I agree...
What kind of boat?
It looks like a 7' beam like ours.

Very nice, Rik, what drive is that the #6 or #7 ???

Those tabs are for bow lift correct. Arneson rocker tabs! Does that drive even turn ? Actually who cares as long as you going fast. I like the horseshoe crab shell covering the prop! If I had that prop I would want to protect it too. Is the shell for protection or to help the boat plain off, kind of a cavitation plate ?

That is a 32' Sunsation, #7M Drive Unit with the propeller guard on. The propeller guard is in place to protect a person from jumping off the boat and landing upon the propeller.

Safety first.

Arnesons steer right to left, and trim up and down. Unless you install one of my rudder setups and that is a totally different story.

Rocker Plates can give bow lift or bow down.

Ok final answer, does the notch have to be filled in to even think about the A-Surface drive ????

It;s a 8 foot wide beam

I think there is a little more to your question G. Rick could "fill the notch" no problem.
I think you want to know if the Bravo to Arneson conversion kit can be bolted up without relocating your engine?
If the engine need to be mounted lower to get the surface drive where it needs to be, then there is surely a lot more to it.

Gary,
Went over this to the tenth power with Coen today. First off ASD claimes their drive approx: 13" over the V
Quote:The ASD6 has a small drop center distance, eliminating the need to mount the engine high in the boat and this in turn helps the balance of the boat. The crankshaft center line is roughly 13" upward from the bottom of the boat depending upon transom angle.
A Bravois approx: 23" CL. Arneson claimes their is 13".
If the Formula is 2.5" below, then it would make the Arneson 10.5" above the bottom, with their claim.
Obviousely they share only the bolt pattern and not the height like they claim.
Quote:Developed as an Arneson replacement for the *Bravo™ with our own standoff box that allows the engine to remain in the current location. Coupled with a Velvet Drive™ transmission, the Arneson Surface Drive™ couples to the standoff box that houses the transmission, enabling the balance (CG) to stay the same as well as maintain current engine room configuration. This also saves valuable engine room space saving the rear seat area for your use and eliminating any hatch modifications.

re·place·ment /rɪˈpleɪsmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-pleys-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of replacing.
2. a person or thing that replaces another: summer replacements for vacationing staff; a replacement for a broken dish.
3. Military. a sailor, soldier, or airman assigned to fill a vacancy in a military unit.

Gary, whether your notch was there or filled, The ASD6 wouldn't be going there without major modifications ( filling the step. Or in the case of an un-notched bottom. To bring the extension box to the bottom of the vee. The bolt holes wouldn't work and existing holes would be visible.

First, it is a "Conversion Kit" not an adapter kit.

The bolt patterns are not the same.

My standoff box Covers the Bravo cutout so there is no need to glass the transom. It is larger than the Bravo cutout/bolt pattern so it covers all that up.

Second, your crankshaft centerline is not 23" above the bottom of the boat, in fact it is more than likely around 13-14" inside the boat, hence the same general location as ours. It is a function of transom angle where ours mounts to the boat.

I never said the engine will be in the same vertical height location as the Bravo on all applications, rather referred to the same for/aft location.

Third, as I have made clear more than once, the notch will have to be filled on this application for an Arneson to fit properly. A twin engine application is different but that is not the case here.

For some reason people seem to think the engine will have to be mounted through the bottom of the boat? Hey, maybe I could call that the built in engine oil cooler feature.:D

13" is 13". You cannot subtract your distance below the bottom of the boat and come up with any logical data. The only thing the depth of a Bravo tells everyone is:

1.) How much speed potential there possibly exist.

2.) How much positive trim is needed to carry the boats bow.

3.) The boats plaining characteristics.

4.) Your engine placement in the boat. The lower the depth the lower the engine is mounted and vice/versa. This is why if you wanted to raise your X dimension you have to raise your engine when using a standard I/O.

I know Cohen is against the Arneson. He has expressed his views more than once on this topic.

I have tried to point out the facts as clearly as I know them.

Notch and Bow lift are the only two areas of concern I have. As Rick affirmed, they have placed an insert into the mold to address the bow lift issue the boat has and it picked up 5 mph.

OK guys let's do some math:

The Bravo drive is approximately 23" CL to CL.
On Gary's the 30' Super the prop is 4" below.
23-4 is 19", also know as the X dimension...;)

I'm not quite sure where the 13" for the Arneson comes into play, inside or outside? Also, Rik said the transom angle also matters.
At any rate the engine in Superbabi would need to be relocated vertically. 19" does not equal 13" or even 16" if we are talking inner dimensions.
So back to the notch in Superbabi; there is obviously more to it than "filling the notch," because the engine would need to be lowered somewhere between 3" to 6". I don't believe there is not enought room to do that. If it's 6", you could probably remove the oil cooler on the engine because the oil pan would be through the bottom...:rolleyes:

Now Rik, we know JC pretty well and he is a fellow that does not like make work projects. However, Rick has convinced him to take on a few R&D projects in the recent past. Examples include the Turbine boat and the new steps in the 30' Super.
I believe that Rick would love to build a boat with a surface drive as he is always up for a challenge...:chill-pill:

Sorry Gary, it does not look good for a surface drive on Superbabi, but maybe Superbabi II...

When I was building mine, I contacted Arneson and was told the notch would have to be filled. I was also concerned with possible not enough bow lift(less of an issue now). Maneuvaribility was also a concern for me in tight spaces with a single. JC listened to me and said he'd do anything I'd want, just opening up a new can of worms with lots of R&D and prop testing, with my limited boating time my tune changed. I'd love to see someone try though...
RIK...I Absoultely love that Skater...Its one of my screensavers!!!