straight electric drum brakes...
 

I'll try to be concise...whilst giving all the necessary details

'02 Eagle triple-axle
Dexter 12"x2" 5.2K surge drum brakes
= suck
I repeatedly have the dragging issues common to these.
I generally have any 2-3 of the 6 dragging to some degree every time I trailer.
I trailer short distance (20-30 mi.) locally over flat good highway and secondaries.
I've flushed and bled more than once
I've had 'em apart and all the hardware and springs appear to be in good order, though the shoes/drums are glazed some now especially from the dragging/heat.
I can't believe it's the master cyl. or return shock as if it was they would ALL drag + the coupler returns fine.
I've considered the rubber hoses breaking down internally but I also have the issue on the side that is hardline right to the wheel cylinder.
SOOOOO...
I could rebuild the whole system including shoes, wheel cylinders, and maybe soft lines. Not touching the master cylinder I'm in for say $400 including getting the drums turned.
NOWWW...
I have found the Dexter 5.2K ELECTRIC drum complete direct replacement assemblies on sale for $34 apiece (about what a set of uni-servo free backing shoes alone for my existing surge set-up cost)
This of course does not include the hub/drum itself, but it appears on Dexter's website the drums I have will work as there is only one PN 8 lug hub/drum listed for both surge and electric
A breakaway kit is $32 complete
an inexpensive controller will work fine.
This would get away from fluid actuation
and give me in-truck control over the trailer brakes.
I have done a search here and there is little mention of electric drums on boat trailers. What there is has been positive. No horror stories in FW dunking. My buddy axapowell here has them on his Viper trailer hauling a 353 and I've not heard any gripes...

so for about the same buck as screwing with the surge system, I can go all new electric drum, have my drums turned, breakaway kit, and controller.

This is as an alternative to the full Kodiak EOH conversion (which I was about resigned to do) for $2500.
I just don't want to spend that kind of jack right now (and it's really not justifiable for my purposes) but I'm gonna have a stroke continuing to struggle with these surge brakes!

talk to me...
especially if you have ELECTRIC DRUM BRAKES on a trailer that gets dunked.

Water and ele brakes don't last. More so in salt water. Look into a disc brake system with the EOH. More money but gives you full control and no drum issues.

Full electric is marginally OK for a trailer that gets dunked. They do OK on travel trailers. They'll take quite a bit more maintenance than the rest. The braking still isn't great but it's marginally better than surge brakes. I had them on a Baron and spent more time f-ing with them than I care to think about.

If you bite the bullet and convert to full EOH on discs, you'll never regret the cost. In fact, the first time you tow, you'll forget all about what you spent. They may save your life one day as well. All it takes is one quick moment of inattention that leads to a panic stop and you'll kinow what I mean.

I agree with Chris, EOH full disc is the way to go. I have them on my 16,000 roller trailer and I can stop anything I tow with out hardly using the truck brakes. I also dunk them on a daily basis and no problems. It is easy to hose them out also, where durms hold the salt water forever.

Rip,

Sounds like some of your wheel cylinders are frozen up and need to be replaced. The Eagle I had with my 311 had surge/drum brakes. The Eagle for my 382 has the EOH ... the EOH is the cat's behind in heavy trailer brakes. They are definately worth the investment.

I changed from drums to the Kodiak disc brakes over this past winter. Haven't had a chance to pull the trailer yet since as I have been working out here in Las Vegas. I ordered everything through Orange County Trailer associated with the SCOPE club. I can get the number for you if you want to talk to them.

Straight electric works differently. There's an electromagnetic "puck" that attracts to the inside face of the brake drum when activated. If you picture the shoe surface of the brake drum, the face perpendicular looks like a disc brake rotor. The puck is on the end of a lever that actuates the cam that moves the shoes- similar to air brakes. The more current, the tighter it pulls, the more the brakes are applied.

thanks for the replies.

I do understand how electric drums work Chris, as always you're a wealth of good info

I was just looking for anyone that had any success with electrics.

I also understand EOH is the cat's pajamas, the safety, relative lack of headaches, and confidence going down the road, but I'm really gonna have to reach for the coin right now, chit is temporarily sqeeky tight...
but I've had it with these surge brakes.
The one thing that makes EOH outlay make sense is that I am in this particular rig for the duration. I do see EOH as an investment I'll get my dollar's worth out of over the next 5-10 years...
next question...
can I get away with 2 axles for now. I mean once all the rest of the conversion is in place, it's cake to add the 3rd set of discs later.
I mean 2 sets of EOH 13" Kodiaks has got to equal the stopping power of 3 sets of drums right?
I'm not worried about the legalities, just the function.

I had the same problem / sympthoms as you mentioned in your initial post. After replacing three of the wheel cylinders to a cost of $26,- each, the surge brake system made a believer out of me - it actually works pretty good. I tow a 11.660lbs boat/trailer with a yukon XL and is very happy with the braking performance. There might be better solutions out there, but regardless of how much you invest - there always will be something better (just a matter of time...). I go with what is good enough to be safe and legal, and my surgebrakes is definantely on the safe and legal side. Chris always gives good advice and he is probably more experienced than me, but with 20 miles of towing, you might want to consider having your current brakes fixed by a professional and be very happy with the outcome.

I'm entirely capable of doing the work myself

I just can't decide which way to go.

I guess at the least for now, I could replace all the wheel cylinders, sand the shoes, and get the drums turned and see what happens!

Thanks Kims, 'cause I was also looking for real experience/troubleshooting.

I can say honestly I've been suspect of the wheel cylinders...they don't leak, the exposed plunger surfaces aren't rusty (if they were, obviously the seal would be torn-up and leaking) but when every time I've bled them (especially the first time I went for a complete flushing) I've gotten some (alot) of sediment/flakes/rust/tea colored fluid in the immediate out of the wheel cylinders.
more of what any of you have found the fix was for mis-behaving surge drums please...

Funny, I am a pilot and got an engineering degree as well. The cylinders on my trailer looked A-OK, they just didn't move as they where supposed to, despte the fact that they where new, according to the previous owner. While bleeding I had a friend turn the wheels and that is how I found out they where not working properly. Jack up on side of the trailer, make a bar that goes down in the hole where the safety brake is and start checking, this could be an easy fix... If you where in Vegas, I would say bring it over and we will get it taken care of.

The explanation was more pointed towards Reddog who was mentioning wheel cylinders. But I mis-read his post.

On 2 axles, that's usually the most common configuration. It would be an extreme situation where you'd need three axles with brakes.

I have full Elec. brakes and my Triple Axle Trlrt and would never have anything else again. I have not had one issue!

I was gonna post more last night but my 8 year old Logitech cordless keyboard and mouse transceiver took a dump!

can't complain, that's pretty unheard of life out one from what I hear...so I bought another Logitech set with an optical mouse this time, the only problem is it doesn't have the thum-side doubleclick on this mouse, I was fond of that.

BACK ON TOPIC:

So the input so far is that as far as getting these surge drums working properly WHEEL CYLINDERS are probably the fix.

As far as EOH discs go, as I suspected 2 (rear) axles will fine.
Good as this keeps the cost down and a third set can be added anytime later if need be.
I can gut parts off the backing plate and use an empty set of drums for idler hubs on the forward axle right?
I don't see why not?



am I following OK?

No problem on using the hubs.

I was just having this conversation with another member this weekend. The Kodiak calipers will have an NPT to 45 flare adapter. Do not use teflon tape on the NPT thread- use an approved high-pressure hydraulic thread sealant. Teflon tape works for low- pressure only.

noted

looks like 2 sets of Kodiak 13" integrals, Brakerite SD pump, dual battery breakaway, all new Timkens, seals some lines and junction blocks...

about 2K + a controller.
What's the latest concensus there? Seems there are a couple in particular that work best with the BrakeRite unit?
The original Prodigy?

nobody has issue with 2 sets of discs on a triple for now? Total rig wieght around 13K + or - for fuel.

Rip,

I'm sure you have some wheel cylinders frozen up. I think I may have a whole set of wheel cylinders from Eagle sitting on the shelf in my storage building in Ohio. I will be flying in there Thursday. Let me know if you want them and I can ship them out to you. I would take the boat off the trailer and just go through all six wheels, rebleed the system, and you are done for a little while. It would be a very inexpensive fix for you until you are ready to convert over to the EOH.

The controller I have is a Tekonsha Voyager. Not sure if they still make this model.

Chris

Some states, as in MD, all trailers over 10k must have brakes on all alxes. Be sure to check so not to have an issue at a later time.

I have a 41 apache total weight is 15,000 it stops great with two axles with disk and electric pump. I have had electric on three axles on a lighter boat does not stop that great after a couple of dunks. One more thing the linings fall off.

Thanks Chris. PM sent

14apache, that is a good word of encouragement, thanks!



scottc-
I will check NYS DOT to verify.
I doubt locally I'll get hassled (you gotta get stopped first) and second of all the "phantom" drums on the first axle may get by. At least there's something behind the wheels on the first axle resembling brakes!

I just installed the Brakerite on my Eagle tandem surge disc trailer. Jury is still out as only towed with it 1 time and spent the whole time fugging with the controller (Voyager). Either was to touchy, or not enough braking force. Not the smooth braking I had with the surge setup.
Cost of the pump, breakaway battery, $175 to have my coupler welded solid, and figuring $200 to have the trailer tonge repainted, I'll have under $1000 in the change over. Hoping I'm just in need of fine tuning the controller to see the the benefits of the EOH.

PM recieved. I will get back to you on Friday after I check on my shelf. I had ordered the parts and was going to re-do my trailer brakes before I decided to upgrade to the Kodiak discs.

Should be smooth as silk once you have the controller properly adjusted.

Yeah, I've heard that. I seemed to have a problem finding the setting that was good both on the highway and in city.

I read that in a number of posts as I've searched over the last week.

I guess the problem is that the amount of gain needed changes with the speeds your braking from? and the realtionship between what it takes to stop the truck (pedal) vs. the boat (EOH pump) is so much different from 30 MPH than 60MPH

You would think the relationship between the truck and trailer braking forces needed would be more linear at both ends of the speed spectrum...

I'm sure we have a physics guru (I'm only sharp on Radiologic physics, photons and stuff :) ) who could express in an equation why it can't be totally linear.

as the mass/wieght goes up, as in the boat wieghs 10-12K takes exponentially more braking as speed goes up than the truck that wieghs 6K to accomplish a similar stop in a similar distance.

so let me guess you need more trailer brake gain out on the highway right? and less in the city?

or do I have it backwards?

Voyager still available.

link http://www.brakecontroller.com/

check the resource links (comparison tech, owner's manuals ect.) just under the controllers, pretty handy.

The brakes goes on the foremost and middle axle. (maybe I missunderstood you but you sounded like you where to mount the brakes on the rear and middle axle, which is not a good option..)

Did you set the levelling adjustment on the controller with the trailer and truck hitched together? Also have to wonder if you maybe have an air bubble in a brake line somewhere ...

you didn't that where my thinking was at.

I thought you'd want the brakes on the rear two axles...as in more boat wieght over them for tire bite?

I have the voyager i don't like it the adjustment is not that good. I just bought the prodigy to try out. I have a hydrastar 1600psi pump you need the hydrastar control adaptr for prodigy controler.

Yes, leveling was set, then gain, then fine tune the leveling. According to the owners manual I DL from the website. Don't know if it makes a difference that the manual doesn't mention EOH setups. I just assume that is irrelevant. I may be turning the knobs too much each time instead of just a tic.

I bled the system to no end.

When I got to the lake after the 2 hr trip, my brakes where hot and grease was pushing the plugs out. Almost like they where dragging.

Think about it. When you apply brakes on the trailer the momentum shifts forward and down, leaving the rearmost axle with the least amount of wight on the tires... Google some trailer and check it out.

Chris sent me these brand new wheel cylinders.

Good Kharma to you Chris. This helps me out alot right now.

Thank you,
Randy

In honor of Nort who sent me a blank dash panel, and all the others who have helped me out along the way!

Glad I could help you out. They would have probably sat there on the shelf collecting rust otherwise.

Just keeping the brotherhood alive, even if we can't afford the gas ... :ernaehrung004:

spelled K O D I A K
 

well, after much stressing over the coin and deliberation over the neccesity...

having the boat off the trailer, up on jackstands in my building, drum assemblies completely removed ...
the only thing salvagable was the backing plates. :rolleyes:
Glazed, cracked and grease contaminated shoes, bad wheel cylinders, weak hardware I'm sure...
you get the idea
though those Chinese bearings and races (and my spindles!)are in excellent condition...thanks Mystic JT-6!! :)

the drums need turning as they are glazed also...

I ordered the Kodiak 13" integral hub/rotors in E-coat from Southwest Wheel today,
along with a complete BrakeRite SD system.
$312.95 an axle for the Kodiaks
$799.95 for the BrakeRite SD complete kit.
fair pricing on the Kodiaks for sure...
300lbs truck frieght from Texas to a Con Way dock an hour south of me...
$114 bucks, not bad at all IMO.

I'll have to come up with 6 soft lines to the calipers from another source as all they sell is complete trailer line "kits"...and I have most all line(s) already in place

for a controller...they are telling me P-3 or Odyssey with the BR SD?
I didn't order either as I may do the MaxBrake if I can manage to bite off the $.

If I'm only going to do this once, I want to do it RIGHT!

the axles have been sanded/wet sanded (they weren't too bad really chipped up and light rust) and painted with two coats of acetone thinned gloss black Rustoleum and a horsehair type brush from spindle to spindle...flowed out so well you'd think they were sprayed!!
replaced 3 bunks with splits
all bunks have been removed, stripped, and had all the sharp corners and edges massaged/radiused
all new bunk carpet
very few cosmetics flaws in the trailer finish (black) as the trailer has always been inside, overall condition is excellent...
looks even better after an afternoon with Mequires cleaner/wax! :cool:
6 new Bridgestone V-Steel RIB 245E's. $50 apiece as 0 mile GM HD take-offs. The OEM Merits have some weatherchecking around near the beads, and have been exposed some seriously high heat in those dragging drum brake incidents...
Time for them to go, BEFORE one fails...

still debating tool boxes. I have it narrowed to the best buys at each finish and price point.

so anyway, if anyone needs those wheel cylinders that RedDog so graciously sent to me, let me know and I will pass them on.

any experiences with controllers mated to the BrakeRite SD?

do I balance the new tires?

I'm using the Voyager controller with my Brakerite and hate it. If it operates the way it does now, I made a big mistake changing from surge. As I read up on the Voyager, it's really not a good EOH controller and I'm thinking it's time to replace it. Was thinking going to the P3 as it's the next step up, but that Maxbrake looks to be the best. Going spend 150, might as well hit it another 200 and be done with it. Works off actual brake pressure, not a converted motion/G-force reading.

Question for the EOH users,...
are you having to change the gain at the ramp as soon as the boat is off the trailer? As soon as I get to the top of the ramp unloaded and hit the brakes, damn trailer wheels lock up. Seems like alot of tinkering is needed for the EOH setup everytime the boat is loaded and unloaded.

Trailer braking systems
 

Hi Folks: I have been monitoring this thread closely as I am all about stopping trailers properly. Rippem, I also pull a 353 behind my Excursion PSD. I use a tri-axle (16in wheels) made by Magnum Trailers of Austin, Texas. When we built the trailer, I chose an EOH brakerite system with disc units on all wheels. The EOH/disc system works like a charm.

I chose to install a "tru-control" brake controller sold by Hensley manufacturing. The "tru-control" has an easily adjustable gain that is set for trailer weight-easlly changed from an empty trailer to a loaded trailer. That keeps me from locking trailer brakes when the trailer is empty. The "tru-control" device also contains an accelerometer that changes the strength of the electric signal according to the rate of deceleration as the brakes are applied. That feature makes for very smooth stops.

For those of you chosing to not equip all axles with brakes, at least start from the front axle and work towards the rear most axle as money permits. When vehicles stop, the center of gravity shifts forward-that is why our front brakes work harder than the rear. Also, don't forget your break away system. Many States require your trailer to have the ability to activate the brakes should the trailer leave the towing unit. Hope this info is useful to all...

I'm headed that way....

Mine is a 10400 Eagle Premier triple with 6K Axis 4" drop axles.
My 3rd Eagle
It's too bad they had business issues, they always made a sweet HD trailer with lots of crossmembers, heavy material, clean welds, nice paint and finish work.

I've heard of the Hensley. I question the inertia controllers ability to acurately sense the decceleration effect of the engine braking downshifting when my Allison is in tow/haul and I am light on the brake pedal? Now that I think about it...that would be a question with the MaxBrake or BrakeSmart type controller also...
Anybody?

I am going all axles. Thought about the front two and adding the 3rd later, but I've got it all apart and up in the air now...

The BrakeRite SD comes with everything ...pump, pump mounting bracket, brain, dual (9 amp (18 amps) battery breakaway kit, and a nice weatherpack plug and play wiring harness.

remember the BrakeRite EOH needs 15 amps to meet the "hold in place for 15 mins." DOT regs. A single 5 amp battery, or even a single 9 amp is not enough! At full lock one of these pumps will kill a single battery in just a few minutes from what I understand.