Nissan skyline.
01-23-2011 | 10:10 PM
#52
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
From: Boca Raton, FL
Gotta ask how many of guys here have actually taken laps driving a car at racecircuit or held a racinglicense and raced.. I have, wrenched stock cars in the states and Formula 3 even in Moscow and everything in between.
One American that would fit the list as a contender to the Skyline would be Dodge Viper. Iīve personally wrenched an Oreca GT3 racer still a FIA GT3 Gallardo will have it eating from its hand and the Skyline has nothing to hold against.
But in normal real life situatitions stop light GPīs are where it counts, even in my book.
One American that would fit the list as a contender to the Skyline would be Dodge Viper. Iīve personally wrenched an Oreca GT3 racer still a FIA GT3 Gallardo will have it eating from its hand and the Skyline has nothing to hold against.
But in normal real life situatitions stop light GPīs are where it counts, even in my book.
I love when people think the Viper could only go in a straight line, when it's incredible on a road course. People forget when the Vipers absolutely decimated everyone in races, and dominated LeMans 3 years in a row to the point where even in other raced competitors we're *****ing b/c they could not keep up with the Vipers on tracks and had so many handicaps instated on them to the point where they were almost uncompetitive, breathing through an intake restriction the size of a quarter bs.
How awesome would it be to see Team Oreca campaign the Viper again and just flat out destroy everyone again lol.
01-23-2011 | 10:12 PM
#53
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 160
From: central IL
Ignorant post of the week, congrats!
Wait, you made a ton of money (probably were "overpaid") at the Ford van plant, and in support you buy the most boring, overhyped crap on the market to say thanks?
GM is still number 1 in the US, but why should I expect you to know that or anything else given your nonsense post.
Yeah, GM builds plants in China. In case you were unaware, China has 3 billion residents, and is the largest car market. GM builds cars in China, sells them to the Chinese, and brings the profits back to the US (in case you missed it, NONE of those cars are sold in the US). Thing is, the Chinese aren't stupid enough to claim GM building cars there is better for that country than their own domestic companies. .....
Oh, as to "selling ****" and losing to the imports.....you might want to check the last years sales and your "awesome" Toyota and what's working (Cliff's notes, they suck and anyone with a clue about the auto industry knows it, you are outside that group). But enjoy buying an inferior foreign product because of what the market looked like 10+ years ago.
Wait, you made a ton of money (probably were "overpaid") at the Ford van plant, and in support you buy the most boring, overhyped crap on the market to say thanks?
GM is still number 1 in the US, but why should I expect you to know that or anything else given your nonsense post.
Yeah, GM builds plants in China. In case you were unaware, China has 3 billion residents, and is the largest car market. GM builds cars in China, sells them to the Chinese, and brings the profits back to the US (in case you missed it, NONE of those cars are sold in the US). Thing is, the Chinese aren't stupid enough to claim GM building cars there is better for that country than their own domestic companies. .....
Oh, as to "selling ****" and losing to the imports.....you might want to check the last years sales and your "awesome" Toyota and what's working (Cliff's notes, they suck and anyone with a clue about the auto industry knows it, you are outside that group). But enjoy buying an inferior foreign product because of what the market looked like 10+ years ago.
Its not overpaid, its what 8yrs of education after highschool gets you
and that was at our project we had at the CHRYSLER van plant in Fenton MO that they asked us to do. Most of all, I don't owe them sh*t. I earn my paycheck and I'll spend my money on the best products available. The only decent cars that GM makes are the Holden based vehicles. Here's some junk I bought brand new from GM that did nothing but cost me alot of money in repairs... '98 Chevy truck, '99 Z28, '00 Chevy truck, '00 Buick LeSabre Limited. Btw, the 2000 Chevy truck cost me more money in repairs in the one year I owned it than the payments cost for the year. Funny how they denied the warranty on that lemon continuously.When did GM take the #1 US automaker title from Toyota?
How is building plants in foreign countries using their labor and products putting money back into our economy? Especially when most of the Chinese population is too poor to purchase a new vehicle.
Since all you can spew is BS, I'm post some facts and make you look stupid...
If GM is so great, why does GM continually outsource to foreign automakers to make a decent vehicle?
Examples:
2.2L 4 cyl found in S10, cavalier, sunfires, etc that was made by Izusu
Duramax diesel made by Izusu
Pontiac Vibe (which is a Toyota Matrix)
Please answer my questions... I love having a battle of wits with someone who's unarmed.
01-24-2011 | 05:39 PM
#54
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 0
From: Royal Oak, MI
Your totally delusional. Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
Its not overpaid, its what 8yrs of education after highschool gets you and that was at our project we had at the CHRYSLER van plant in Fenton MO that they asked us to do. Most of all, I don't owe them sh*t. I earn my paycheck and I'll spend my money on the best products available. The only decent cars that GM makes are the Holden based vehicles. Here's some junk I bought brand new from GM that did nothing but cost me alot of money in repairs... '98 Chevy truck, '99 Z28, '00 Chevy truck, '00 Buick LeSabre Limited. Btw, the 2000 Chevy truck cost me more money in repairs in the one year I owned it than the payments cost for the year. Funny how they denied the warranty on that lemon continuously.
When did GM take the #1 US automaker title from Toyota?
How is building plants in foreign countries using their labor and products putting money back into our economy? Especially when most of the Chinese population is too poor to purchase a new vehicle.
Since all you can spew is BS, I'm post some facts and make you look stupid...
If GM is so great, why does GM continually outsource to foreign automakers to make a decent vehicle?
Examples:
2.2L 4 cyl found in S10, cavalier, sunfires, etc that was made by Izusu
Duramax diesel made by Izusu
Pontiac Vibe (which is a Toyota Matrix)
Please answer my questions... I love having a battle of wits with someone who's unarmed.
Its not overpaid, its what 8yrs of education after highschool gets you
and that was at our project we had at the CHRYSLER van plant in Fenton MO that they asked us to do. Most of all, I don't owe them sh*t. I earn my paycheck and I'll spend my money on the best products available. The only decent cars that GM makes are the Holden based vehicles. Here's some junk I bought brand new from GM that did nothing but cost me alot of money in repairs... '98 Chevy truck, '99 Z28, '00 Chevy truck, '00 Buick LeSabre Limited. Btw, the 2000 Chevy truck cost me more money in repairs in the one year I owned it than the payments cost for the year. Funny how they denied the warranty on that lemon continuously.When did GM take the #1 US automaker title from Toyota?
How is building plants in foreign countries using their labor and products putting money back into our economy? Especially when most of the Chinese population is too poor to purchase a new vehicle.
Since all you can spew is BS, I'm post some facts and make you look stupid...
If GM is so great, why does GM continually outsource to foreign automakers to make a decent vehicle?
Examples:
2.2L 4 cyl found in S10, cavalier, sunfires, etc that was made by Izusu
Duramax diesel made by Izusu
Pontiac Vibe (which is a Toyota Matrix)
Please answer my questions... I love having a battle of wits with someone who's unarmed.
The real question is when in your mind did Toyota sell more cars than GM in the US (Toyota is the top globally, which seeing as they are the top in Japan where everyone else is excluded is a nice edge)?
Thanks for those very valid points of reference from over 10 years ago, very applicable. Any more anecdotal evidence that has no relevance here? Along your line of thought, Hyundai makes nothing but junk too huh? (hint, they are making some of the nicer cars out there today).
Try reading anything about a subject before posting on it, and then insulting people who actually know what they're talking about. You can not export to China without a huge tariff. You must build there to be competitive. These "people to poor to buy a car" somehow have bought more this year than Americans. Nearly all of them built there due to tariffs and localization laws (ie you can't import parts and build, you have to make the parts in China to avoid taxes). If you don't know how GM profits (that is the money made after the local investments and material cost) comes back to the US, you won't be learning that here. Those profits there create cash for GM, which goes to American wages and investment here as well as China.
You then say GM is "continually" outsourcing things, and list a bunch of cars WE DO NOT MAKE anymore. Nice work. Isuzu officially left the D-Max JV, and the engineering of the last several versions of 6.6's are done by GM engineers in Ohio.
So, next time bring a link to any of your facts, which are in fact either outdated nonsense or not a fact at all. If this is how well you operate at work, than you were certainly overpaid.
Since you don't have google obviously, I'll provide some easy links:
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...tml#autosalesD
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...e-us-in-2010/1
So, please stop while your ahead. Keep buying Toyota's without doing any research and I'm sure you'll look smart in your Camry.
01-24-2011 | 11:38 PM
#55
Registered
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 160
From: central IL
Holy **** the irony of you talking about someone else unarmed with wits is hilarious.
The real question is when in your mind did Toyota sell more cars than GM in the US (Toyota is the top globally, which seeing as they are the top in Japan where everyone else is excluded is a nice edge)?
Thanks for those very valid points of reference from over 10 years ago, very applicable. Any more anecdotal evidence that has no relevance here? Along your line of thought, Hyundai makes nothing but junk too huh? (hint, they are making some of the nicer cars out there today).
Try reading anything about a subject before posting on it, and then insulting people who actually know what they're talking about. You can not export to China without a huge tariff. You must build there to be competitive. These "people to poor to buy a car" somehow have bought more this year than Americans. Nearly all of them built there due to tariffs and localization laws (ie you can't import parts and build, you have to make the parts in China to avoid taxes). If you don't know how GM profits (that is the money made after the local investments and material cost) comes back to the US, you won't be learning that here. Those profits there create cash for GM, which goes to American wages and investment here as well as China.
You then say GM is "continually" outsourcing things, and list a bunch of cars WE DO NOT MAKE anymore. Nice work. Isuzu officially left the D-Max JV, and the engineering of the last several versions of 6.6's are done by GM engineers in Ohio.
So, next time bring a link to any of your facts, which are in fact either outdated nonsense or not a fact at all. If this is how well you operate at work, than you were certainly overpaid.
Since you don't have google obviously, I'll provide some easy links:
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...tml#autosalesD
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...e-us-in-2010/1
So, please stop while your ahead. Keep buying Toyota's without doing any research and I'm sure you'll look smart in your Camry.
The real question is when in your mind did Toyota sell more cars than GM in the US (Toyota is the top globally, which seeing as they are the top in Japan where everyone else is excluded is a nice edge)?
Thanks for those very valid points of reference from over 10 years ago, very applicable. Any more anecdotal evidence that has no relevance here? Along your line of thought, Hyundai makes nothing but junk too huh? (hint, they are making some of the nicer cars out there today).
Try reading anything about a subject before posting on it, and then insulting people who actually know what they're talking about. You can not export to China without a huge tariff. You must build there to be competitive. These "people to poor to buy a car" somehow have bought more this year than Americans. Nearly all of them built there due to tariffs and localization laws (ie you can't import parts and build, you have to make the parts in China to avoid taxes). If you don't know how GM profits (that is the money made after the local investments and material cost) comes back to the US, you won't be learning that here. Those profits there create cash for GM, which goes to American wages and investment here as well as China.
You then say GM is "continually" outsourcing things, and list a bunch of cars WE DO NOT MAKE anymore. Nice work. Isuzu officially left the D-Max JV, and the engineering of the last several versions of 6.6's are done by GM engineers in Ohio.
So, next time bring a link to any of your facts, which are in fact either outdated nonsense or not a fact at all. If this is how well you operate at work, than you were certainly overpaid.
Since you don't have google obviously, I'll provide some easy links:
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...tml#autosalesD
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...e-us-in-2010/1
So, please stop while your ahead. Keep buying Toyota's without doing any research and I'm sure you'll look smart in your Camry.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/to...urer-3439.html
As of January 25th 2011, here's how the population numbers came out:
China: 1,341,950,000
USA: 311,948,000
World population
GM cars sold:
1 China 2,351,610
2 U.S. 2,215,227
China: 1 car sold per 570.65 people
USA: 1 car sold per 140.82 people
Based off the figures from your USA today link with the number of people that bought GM cars in China vs US, the US citizens bought over 4 times more cars than in China in a ratio of population/cars sold. Thank you for proving that the average american is far more able to afford GM's cars than people in China yet they spend alot more money building manufacturing plants there than anywhere else.
"Research showed that the lowest average annual income of the 183 countries and regions in the world is approximately US$6,078, while Chinas is only US$896."
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/30453/
Sorry, the average person in China can't afford a new GM vehicle and they are building cars there because the labor is dirt cheap.
Further proof that GM is slapping us in the face...
http://www.economicpopulist.org/cont...urcing-us-jobs
Its all good buddy. GM will make bigger profits for those big management salaries/retirement while the US economy continues to go in the toilet. God bless america
http://www.companypay.com/executive/...rp.asp?yr=2008
http://www.mlive.com/business/index....tion_valu.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29960407/ns/business-autos/
Predatory corporate fat cats don't change their spots...
Its hilarious that your defending the company that:
1. While going bankrupt, they flew their corporate jets to Washington DC to beg for money from the government and is using the money to build manufacturing facilities in other countries.
2. Lied in their commercials about paying the government back their loans and then took them off the air due to the backlash.
3. Put money together for an IPO at over $20/share (while Ford stock had to tank to less than $2/share before coming back) while they are still in debt to the our government. In terms you'll comprehend, lets get some investors together to help us gamble in the stock market in hopes to pay back the loans faster instead of pulling their heads out of their @sses and making the company make money the real way.
Next rebuttal please
Last edited by Plowtownmissile; 01-25-2011 at 12:53 AM.
01-25-2011 | 01:27 AM
#56
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,200
Likes: 1
From: Simsbury ct
I have to admit theres not allot of good American vehicles out there. I would put the 89 Turbo TA up against just about anything in handling and performance though.
I also have a 69 firebird 468 pontiac that made 878 HP with a T88 Turbo, Gets 17 MPG on 93 octane can be driven anywhere and runs 9's all day long so If you throw a little tech at an old design it can really kick some AZZ!
while the nissan can make some killer HP it will never make allot of torque and torque moves vehicles.
It also puts a killer smile on your face.
I like the Nissan Skylines and GTrs but its no muscle car.
If ford or Gm would just do a twin turbo stang or camaro with some really killer underpinnings there would be n o comparison but there warrantee issues would kill it. It would have to be like the old SD pontiacs with NO warranty.
I also have a 69 firebird 468 pontiac that made 878 HP with a T88 Turbo, Gets 17 MPG on 93 octane can be driven anywhere and runs 9's all day long so If you throw a little tech at an old design it can really kick some AZZ!
while the nissan can make some killer HP it will never make allot of torque and torque moves vehicles.
It also puts a killer smile on your face.
I like the Nissan Skylines and GTrs but its no muscle car.
If ford or Gm would just do a twin turbo stang or camaro with some really killer underpinnings there would be n o comparison but there warrantee issues would kill it. It would have to be like the old SD pontiacs with NO warranty.
01-25-2011 | 06:36 AM
#57
Registered
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,755
Likes: 152
From: Connecticut
I have to admit theres not allot of good American vehicles out there. I would put the 89 Turbo TA up against just about anything in handling and performance though.
I also have a 69 firebird 468 pontiac that made 878 HP with a T88 Turbo, Gets 17 MPG on 93 octane can be driven anywhere and runs 9's all day long so If you throw a little tech at an old design it can really kick some AZZ!
while the nissan can make some killer HP it will never make allot of torque and torque moves vehicles.
It also puts a killer smile on your face.
I like the Nissan Skylines and GTrs but its no muscle car.
If ford or Gm would just do a twin turbo stang or camaro with some really killer underpinnings there would be n o comparison but there warrantee issues would kill it. It would have to be like the old SD pontiacs with NO warranty.
I also have a 69 firebird 468 pontiac that made 878 HP with a T88 Turbo, Gets 17 MPG on 93 octane can be driven anywhere and runs 9's all day long so If you throw a little tech at an old design it can really kick some AZZ!
while the nissan can make some killer HP it will never make allot of torque and torque moves vehicles.
It also puts a killer smile on your face.
I like the Nissan Skylines and GTrs but its no muscle car.
If ford or Gm would just do a twin turbo stang or camaro with some really killer underpinnings there would be n o comparison but there warrantee issues would kill it. It would have to be like the old SD pontiacs with NO warranty.
01-25-2011 | 10:31 AM
#58
Registered
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
From: Boca Raton, FL
I have to admit theres not allot of good American vehicles out there. I would put the 89 Turbo TA up against just about anything in handling and performance though.
I also have a 69 firebird 468 pontiac that made 878 HP with a T88 Turbo, Gets 17 MPG on 93 octane can be driven anywhere and runs 9's all day long so If you throw a little tech at an old design it can really kick some AZZ!
while the nissan can make some killer HP it will never make allot of torque and torque moves vehicles.
It also puts a killer smile on your face.
I like the Nissan Skylines and GTrs but its no muscle car.
If ford or Gm would just do a twin turbo stang or camaro with some really killer underpinnings there would be n o comparison but there warrantee issues would kill it. It would have to be like the old SD pontiacs with NO warranty.
I also have a 69 firebird 468 pontiac that made 878 HP with a T88 Turbo, Gets 17 MPG on 93 octane can be driven anywhere and runs 9's all day long so If you throw a little tech at an old design it can really kick some AZZ!
while the nissan can make some killer HP it will never make allot of torque and torque moves vehicles.
It also puts a killer smile on your face.
I like the Nissan Skylines and GTrs but its no muscle car.
If ford or Gm would just do a twin turbo stang or camaro with some really killer underpinnings there would be n o comparison but there warrantee issues would kill it. It would have to be like the old SD pontiacs with NO warranty.
The 89' Turbo TA is rare, but as far as handling... it handled good for what it was, but it's not remotely close to anything modern, heck a Jeep SRT-8 or Cayenne would have no problem with it on a roadcourse....nevermind the Viper, GT3 (or really any Porsche) etc. The TA, even the 89' are still riding on a crap chassis especially by todays standards and suspension setup, with that lovely loose spaghetti steering feel lol.
01-25-2011 | 04:06 PM
#59
Registered
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 5
From: Turku, Finland
A lot of offtopic...
Now weīre talking...this is much like the lure of nonstepped Deep Vees. Itīs allabout the feeling.
Actually Viper got the same handicaps
everyone else did get too... at least in Europe.
One Advantage The Viper always had was the allowed tire size.. the disadvantage was the heavy front and the low end grunt and torque.. itīs a handful to drive as it only rpms half the competitors or so... so gearing is a problem and therefore the adjustment of traction as itīs basically an on off thing while feeding the throttle.
The Gallardo for example used same size tires on every corner the Viper had in the front and still was over a second faster with same drivers on a same day ( yes the Team I was in had both) So not even Oreca could do no more magic to it.
The (C6)Corvette got seriously hurt on the other hand by the Vipers success and itīs own (C5) and never came to itīs full potential. The Ford GT40 ( yes the raceversion is called GT40 as it sits at 40 inches and not 42 as the civilian version) was an also ran.
Still all these 3 got beat for example by a Gallardo that was engineered by an independent outlet.
But itīs a great stunt for Viper to hit the Ring and be almost (ok so the track is a bit shorter nowadays and the times is 11 sec off but still close) as fast as an Porsche 917/10K from back in the day with 1lbs/hp ratio...letīs see Skyline/GT-R or whatever from Japan come even close...
Viper vs Vette
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08nxInpgTGc
GT-R
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLdaLV66XOc
The Real hard hitters;
Ferrari 599
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJj8atDGBzk
And this is Porsche Territory.... despite how you like it face it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAxmOvwRZlI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqFrqLBcCGk
I love when people think the Viper could only go in a straight line, when it's incredible on a road course. People forget when the Vipers absolutely decimated everyone in races, and dominated LeMans 3 years in a row to the point where even in other raced competitors we're *****ing b/c they could not keep up with the Vipers on tracks and had so many handicaps instated on them to the point where they were almost uncompetitive, breathing through an intake restriction the size of a quarter bs.
How awesome would it be to see Team Oreca campaign the Viper again and just flat out destroy everyone again lol.
How awesome would it be to see Team Oreca campaign the Viper again and just flat out destroy everyone again lol.
everyone else did get too... at least in Europe.
One Advantage The Viper always had was the allowed tire size.. the disadvantage was the heavy front and the low end grunt and torque.. itīs a handful to drive as it only rpms half the competitors or so... so gearing is a problem and therefore the adjustment of traction as itīs basically an on off thing while feeding the throttle.
The Gallardo for example used same size tires on every corner the Viper had in the front and still was over a second faster with same drivers on a same day ( yes the Team I was in had both) So not even Oreca could do no more magic to it.
The (C6)Corvette got seriously hurt on the other hand by the Vipers success and itīs own (C5) and never came to itīs full potential. The Ford GT40 ( yes the raceversion is called GT40 as it sits at 40 inches and not 42 as the civilian version) was an also ran.
Still all these 3 got beat for example by a Gallardo that was engineered by an independent outlet.
But itīs a great stunt for Viper to hit the Ring and be almost (ok so the track is a bit shorter nowadays and the times is 11 sec off but still close) as fast as an Porsche 917/10K from back in the day with 1lbs/hp ratio...letīs see Skyline/GT-R or whatever from Japan come even close...
Viper vs Vette
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08nxInpgTGc
GT-R
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLdaLV66XOc
The Real hard hitters;
Ferrari 599
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJj8atDGBzk
And this is Porsche Territory.... despite how you like it face it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAxmOvwRZlI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqFrqLBcCGk
Last edited by MikeyFIN; 01-25-2011 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Added some fun links
01-25-2011 | 05:52 PM
#60
Registered
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,820
Likes: 0
From: Royal Oak, MI
I'll admit I misspoke, Toyota is number 1 globally...
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/to...urer-3439.html
As of January 25th 2011, here's how the population numbers came out:
China: 1,341,950,000
USA: 311,948,000
World population
GM cars sold:
1 China 2,351,610
2 U.S. 2,215,227
China: 1 car sold per 570.65 people
USA: 1 car sold per 140.82 people
Based off the figures from your USA today link with the number of people that bought GM cars in China vs US, the US citizens bought over 4 times more cars than in China in a ratio of population/cars sold. Thank you for proving that the average american is far more able to afford GM's cars than people in China yet they spend alot more money building manufacturing plants there than anywhere else.
"Research showed that the lowest average annual income of the 183 countries and regions in the world is approximately US$6,078, while Chinas is only US$896."
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/30453/
Sorry, the average person in China can't afford a new GM vehicle and they are building cars there because the labor is dirt cheap.
Further proof that GM is slapping us in the face...
http://www.economicpopulist.org/cont...urcing-us-jobs
Its all good buddy. GM will make bigger profits for those big management salaries/retirement while the US economy continues to go in the toilet. God bless america
http://www.companypay.com/executive/...rp.asp?yr=2008
http://www.mlive.com/business/index....tion_valu.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29960407/ns/business-autos/
Predatory corporate fat cats don't change their spots...
Its hilarious that your defending the company that:
1. While going bankrupt, they flew their corporate jets to Washington DC to beg for money from the government and is using the money to build manufacturing facilities in other countries.
-absolutely standard procedure for that level of executive to travel, and the cost compared to the cash burn was nothing. It was purely a huge political statement by the clueless congressman from the south, not an actual bad business decision. It was a PR learning experience.
2. Lied in their commercials about paying the government back their loans and then took them off the air due to the backlash.
-The loans were paid back in full, completely true adds. Their is a huge difference between having equity (stock) in a company and a loan.
3. Put money together for an IPO at over $20/share (while Ford stock had to tank to less than $2/share before coming back) while they are still in debt to the our government. In terms you'll comprehend, lets get some investors together to help us gamble in the stock market in hopes to pay back the loans faster instead of pulling their heads out of their @sses and making the company make money the real way.
I'm lost on this. The money "owed" to the gov't is in equity, and the only way to get it back is an IPO. GM didn't "put money together" for an IPO, that was the gov't and other equity holders selling their shares, to get paid back. This goes back to the difference between a loan and equity which I don't think you get. So with no IPO nobody would get paid back a penny beyond the loans, which as stated are already paid in full.
Next rebuttal please
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/to...urer-3439.html
As of January 25th 2011, here's how the population numbers came out:
China: 1,341,950,000
USA: 311,948,000
World population
GM cars sold:
1 China 2,351,610
2 U.S. 2,215,227
China: 1 car sold per 570.65 people
USA: 1 car sold per 140.82 people
Based off the figures from your USA today link with the number of people that bought GM cars in China vs US, the US citizens bought over 4 times more cars than in China in a ratio of population/cars sold. Thank you for proving that the average american is far more able to afford GM's cars than people in China yet they spend alot more money building manufacturing plants there than anywhere else.
"Research showed that the lowest average annual income of the 183 countries and regions in the world is approximately US$6,078, while Chinas is only US$896."
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/30453/
Sorry, the average person in China can't afford a new GM vehicle and they are building cars there because the labor is dirt cheap.
Further proof that GM is slapping us in the face...
http://www.economicpopulist.org/cont...urcing-us-jobs
Its all good buddy. GM will make bigger profits for those big management salaries/retirement while the US economy continues to go in the toilet. God bless america
http://www.companypay.com/executive/...rp.asp?yr=2008
http://www.mlive.com/business/index....tion_valu.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29960407/ns/business-autos/
Predatory corporate fat cats don't change their spots...
Its hilarious that your defending the company that:
1. While going bankrupt, they flew their corporate jets to Washington DC to beg for money from the government and is using the money to build manufacturing facilities in other countries.
-absolutely standard procedure for that level of executive to travel, and the cost compared to the cash burn was nothing. It was purely a huge political statement by the clueless congressman from the south, not an actual bad business decision. It was a PR learning experience.
2. Lied in their commercials about paying the government back their loans and then took them off the air due to the backlash.
-The loans were paid back in full, completely true adds. Their is a huge difference between having equity (stock) in a company and a loan.
3. Put money together for an IPO at over $20/share (while Ford stock had to tank to less than $2/share before coming back) while they are still in debt to the our government. In terms you'll comprehend, lets get some investors together to help us gamble in the stock market in hopes to pay back the loans faster instead of pulling their heads out of their @sses and making the company make money the real way.
I'm lost on this. The money "owed" to the gov't is in equity, and the only way to get it back is an IPO. GM didn't "put money together" for an IPO, that was the gov't and other equity holders selling their shares, to get paid back. This goes back to the difference between a loan and equity which I don't think you get. So with no IPO nobody would get paid back a penny beyond the loans, which as stated are already paid in full.
Next rebuttal please
More importantly, China is the fastest growing market, for the reasons you pointed out. They are industrializing, and there is a huge market for cars there, again as you pointed out, they are far down on cars to people compared to the rest of the world. They won't remedy that by people killing themselves, so car sales will go WAY up. GM will be there to sell those cars at a profit, a profit which comes back to the US.
As to your points, see above.
I totally agree with your point on US mfg, and go out of my way to buy American and don't understand how you're on here making that comment when saying "I buy Toyota/Lexus" only? However, as I've said, GM investing in China is not taking away from America, it is opening a new market to make a ton of money to bring back here (like Toyota has done in the US and sent back to Japan.......)
Oh, and for Toyota being number 1 globally, I wouldn't count on that lasting forever (and they wouldn't be now if Japan was an open market seeing as they sold about 30K more cars this year globally I believe)......
I'm sure you are knowledgeable about your industry, or boats, or something. But everything you have posted about the auto industry has been wrong, confused, or been anecdotal evidence of 10 year old cars. I make a good living in the auto industry and know it in detail. If you have real questions I'll answer, but I'm done with a condescending pissing match.
Anyone trading a GTR for a CTS-V has made a wise decision.
