BUT McManus is one of the originals since day one!
According to my memory he worked early on (and that might go even into the 70´s...free feel to correct) at Cigarette (maybe even SQ XII) like Bobby S did and if we think further the first Apache Racer was in fact a SQ XII 39(=39 Cig Competition with wider strakes).
So apparently he was around and getting his hands dirty since day one just like Bobby S or anyother who get´s credited.
He has had the determination to get the molds (for the 41 ups) and the name to himself and stuck with the Apache even at bad times.
He´s the one that should be held acclaimed and credited for keeping the dream alive IMO.
And Yes he owns the trademark officially, without any sideremarks, why is it so hard to admit that and the fact HE IS THE Key player because of his Determination to the name, not fogetting others either ?

Fact is you can order one from McManus at the price Apaches always have commanded brand new, expect it to be made of materials several times higher in price and quality as always and maybe he can even build one stronger and lighter than any (relic) before ?
If he or any old reputable builder can´t then it´s better to turn to others (who have Apache molds) and is up to date with the build techniques regarding these new upto 60yrs old materials (Epoxy, Para-Aramids, Carbon Fiber ) and probably be more than happy USING a brand new one and beating it to death...
Just like using a new racecar...

Apparently the price has proved unbearable even today using these materials as not many are built so people stick to the older ones and build them up over and over again.
IMO the resale market would be quite bad for an old school style boat with todays materials used as the price will be for a hull more than another similar sized turn key boat.

Also any old used race XXXX that isn´t competitive or needs too much overhaul to keep competitive/even running isn´t going to get sold easily as the competitors know it and the one "dumb enough" to buy one isn´t there yet.. it takes 20+yrs to forget the setbacks and look back at the glory days....
A Racer can´t afford to be brand loyal but a wannabe can.


Yes The Cobra and Apache do have a similar history, as being underdogs in their racing record internationally but having domestic success.
So all in all they both were winning occasionally, yes but not constently like those which aren´t that heralded just because the name gets so common because of the wins and ink they get in volumes.


So a 36 Apache doesn´t hold a special place in afficiandos eyes but a 41 Racer does.
Just like I stood upon a 90´s Ferrari yesterday without taking a second glimps at it but looked with more interest at the couple 420/454 Mercs behind it going for a rebuild...or the 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000GTV I volunteered working on.

A Niché market is always just that and yes more than often has an inflated market because of various things.
In Apache it has to be to some extent the shady characters involved as there´s more distinguished race records in other brands.
Think Lamborghini* and Cobra* vs. Corvette,Ferrari or Porsche.
*In both marques it´s an inflated reputation vs. their race successes.
The funny thing is many thinks Lambos have a race record or race models to speak of which they don´t or have never had a factory race effort anywhere.

Depends who you´re talking with...Usually you just get an empty reply/stare..
Talk about a racing sailboat with no amenities or a racecar to a soccermom...
I have found out that mostly I don´t bother to explain further than I just bought a XXX...
F.e. I didn´t bother to tell my wife about the Callies Stroker crank yesterday other than it´s a crank and weighs alot.
And I tell her equestrain horses and dressage horses are the same **** in different packages..and yes we do have both.:hitfan:

Keep the Aronow Heritage alive :grinser010:

McManus was pushing pencils as an operations manager, not actually getting his hands dirty. In fact he probably never turned a wrench or stepped inside one of his customers boats for all we know. Where are his racing credentials??? Who much setupging/rig info did he steal from Bobby Moore? How many championships did "he" win behind the wheel??

Being upset that a boat built in the US is worth more money than its overseas counterparts is unfortunate. You obviously don't think they're worth what people are selling them for and others are buying them for, what what's your beef, why do you even care then??? Don't buy one if you think they're overpriced.... IMHO the European counterparts were UGLY boats, they didn't have the timeless lines of an Apache. 20 years later I still have people come up to me and tell me that out of all the boats on the dock they like the Apache the best. Those aren't my words they are someone else's.

Anyway, if you think they're only worth $10, go out and buy one and enjoy it. Somehow I doubt that'll happen. You don't have to like or think they are worth what they are, they just ARE.. lol:hitfan:

Did he manage the teams that built the boats in the later days at Apache...yes...does he get credit, yes. I don't discredit him and what he did...

I like all Apache's and in some ways they are still superior to some of the newer boats.... Three boats parked at a dock, a Cigarette, Apache and a Cougar and my head will still turn to the Apache... It's all about what you like and people pay for what they like.

And we have a winner folks:D Wuz up Ed:ernaehrung004:

It´s like saying that to be a good boatbuilder you have to be a good driver first, Eh?
And regarding "stealing" well look who was the master of that if not Don A himself....now there´s a snakecharmer for you ( or newer trust a XXX might be the lesson there).
I guess he would´ve been living with the fishes real soon If he´d building boats in the old continent...

FYI I´ve been a race mechanic in cars since 1984 and wouldn´t let any driver use my tools or trust anything one would build I´ve seen the disatrous result far too many times.
But if their crew chief would offer something I´d even consider and surely take even a second look despite how bad they are behind the wheel.
So McManus is a pencil pusher in your eyes even thou he´s regarded as a no1 Apache restorer, something doesn´t add upp here ?
Where does it put Don A then, how much did he do hands dirty jobs ?

First of all I´m not upset at all (about a US built boat being worth more money) as surely it ain´t the case.
The others abroad just buys even Apaches/Cigarettes/Rivas you name it for tenderboats around the boats I´m familiar with they build over here.
So not in the same league I´d say...happens to be one aqquintance of mine was the "pencil pusher" for the last two boats one mr. Allen commissioned.


I´m not either saying I Don´t like the style, but there sure is options to Apache if you don´t care about the looks or have a different taste, some actually like the "other" raceboats (from the period even) that look different but I´m not one of them or you either so we agree quite well how a POWERBOAT SHOULD LOOK and sure as hell it aint the look of a Fountain despite being US built!
I like the look of an old school flatdeck and if you have to compare a boat to another just take an apples to apples comparison.
Meaning it´s more straighforward to compare the prices heritage and so-on with other raceboats.

In fact my favourite regarding just pure looks is a Cigarette 35 Mistress in the configuration where the fairing is not a V (and the Cig 39/Flatdecks) and the Scarab KV coming as a good second.
Regarding Apaches fairing it´s a tad high for my taste but I understand it´s purpose. But it´s hull doesn´t have that kink a Scarab/Cig 36 and Cary32 have...but the Apache 47 do.
I´d say the 41 is close to being one of the toughest looking powerboats but so is the Saber 28 also...despite

If you think a Apache turns heads because of it´s beauty park it next to a Riva or any similar mahogany jewel that Carlo Riva got his inspiration from (Gar Wood/Chris Craft) or do we disagree on pure looks, and they surely command the prices you wouldn´t believe.
And the restoration sums are anything but pocket change, Restorin a Riva Aquarama can set you back the price of a brand new 38 TG...


Oh there´s one for 59Th..and bare hulls, 47´s have been listed for 29K (PTM Express) so that doesn´t make it seem so expensive until you upgrade/restore them, still they are cheaper than Brand new racehulls or ?
Are they then competitive...not in the long run.

Bare 41A racehulls fetch in the 80-120 range..IMO thats not much considering what they are.
Try get and old stripped raceboat for similar prices is hard even globally.

And the finest example of a 41A is at 250 right now.
Others with #6´s are anywhere from 150 up depending on condition.
Those aren´t much of a prices if looking for a powerboat if you look at retail prices of a new something in similar size.
And yes my option would be anyday a 41A instead but I would also look for other options like other old flatdeck raceboats.

What I am saying that Apaches claim to fame and why they command prices isn´t based on their race success and classy looks but the Bad Boy Image which every titcheek tries to mimick and be a part of.
The true bad boys thou can´t afford one...

Well we agree here on many parts but I don´t like all Apaches mainly 41 and 47´s, yeah yeah I know what happens to the picky guy ...he doesn´t get any....
Depending also on what Cig and What Cougar is parked.
Regarding them being superior to new boats..well my opinion on boats is no steps no boaks but it just an opinion.

A flatdeck Cig (38/39) and I´ll surely compare it to a Apache 41
and If there´s Warpath next to Dry Martini I´ll look more at DM.
But if a Cougar Cat 41 is there and especially NOTAREAL Then I´m all in for that one and it´s blue trumpets...
funny..the former Notareal has a listing price equaling Warpaint as we speak ( The red banner boat).
And howabout Turkish Express ?

Aren't many 15-25yr old boats kept in the condition these apaches are.
Damn, most 5yr old boats pale in comparison.

Mike, we agree on many points, all of which combined increase the value to people who own them and who are looking to buy them. :cool:

I also agree about Riva's etc... My father owned a 30' "Fino" when I was young, it was an Italian designed hull made to resemble the wooden Chris Crafts. They only made about a dozen or less of them....you can get a new one made for $350K.. I have only seen ONE other one in person and I happened to stumble upon it with my wife when we were on vacation. My fathers boat was built in the 70's and the hull was laid up and rigged at Magnum. He had 600 hp Turbo motors that were built at Flagship marine which also happened to be around the corner from Bobby's Race Headquarters.