That would probably be the best thing. That way we get to deal with facts first-hand.

And, I don't know Gellner, never been in his shop and we've never done a nickle's worth of business.

Since you're "sure", that would lead me to believe you have a list of names and circumstances to go with your "list of others..." that you know about.

So, post them.

Tell us all about your experiences. And not the whispers and rumors that you may or may not have heard or just made up so you could pile on post in here.

The man operates a business with a solid reputation. That's not to say that he or any of the rest of us haven't had issues or problems in our own lives & businesses or that we're immune to them, but this unsubstantiated mud-slinging is getting carried away with.

When the man's friend comes on here and is involved, there's at least some credibility by connection. I really question whether Ziploc has any knowledge about this or Gellner whatsoever. He's been here a month and I looked at his handful of posts- not a substantive one in the bunch. In fact, his posts remind me alot of the "Cigarette Kid".

Well I have only been here a short time. Didn't think I was mud-slinging. This is the kind of info I would want if I was thinking of going to an engine builder. I thought I was backing gellners engine building skills ( not mud-slinging.) oh well. PEACE!! Explain the cigerette kid thing.

You said...

The word "sure" implies direct knowledge. If you've done business with Gellner and he's failed to deliver, then we're all ears. If "sure" means "My guess is..." then you're assuming based on zero fact. And I don't think that has any place in a discussion like this.

The man is running a very reputable business and has been at it for a long time. It's unfair to sully a hard-earned reputation with anything other than hard, cold fact. If assuming there is an issue here, to my knowledge it's a rarity. I'm only a few miles from the man and I hear plenty of what's going on. I've never heard negatives about Gellner.

The Cigarette Kid- he's a kid that came on the board last year. He was posing as Skip Braver. Then one of the designers at Cigarette. Then he cleaned up for a while but fell offf the wagon again. His posts and yours are strikingly familiar. If you're not him, then OK. Regardless of who you are, I'll toss you the "new guy" speech. You are what you post. If that's fun, funny, serious, helpful, inquisitive, whatever. If you come on and, without specific knowledge, add to a controversy, what you are is counter-productive. If Dean had one problem in years, then that's that. Adding to the conversation by inferring that these issues are par for the course in dealing with the man, that's unfair and detrimental to his livelihood. The way these things start is this- someone has a problem. That's fine. If they choose to bring it here and resolve it, then that's great. But fanning the flames just for the hell of it is just bad business. And that's because people may not remember all the details. Your one post becomes a scant memory of a "fact" and pretty soon, Dean Gellner has never delivered on time in people's perceptions.

Another bad idea. Every month or so we get a "bad referral" thread. Someone wanting to be helpful will recommend a service or vendor- but they've only "heard" about them- no first-hand knowledge. Then the guy takes the rec and gets boned. Not only is he pissed at the guy who boned him, he's pissed at the guy who referred him. If you don't own any of Gellner's work, you probably don't have any basis for your backing. Not to say he doesn't have a solid reputation- but for me, that's all I can say- and point to people I know who have used him personally.

Lastly, I ran through your 33 posts. In one, you're saying "If I were in the market..." and a day or so later you're asking a guy with a Tiger what his bottom dollar is. That's a quick way to get a bad rep on here. There's nothing I like better than seeing new people coming on here & posting. If you know alot, I look forward to learning from you. If you need to know something and it's something I can help you with, I'd be glad to help the best I can. Just before you post something, ask youself "is what I'm posting going to help or add to the discussion?" Substance is everything. The rest is clutter.

You would think that Dean screwed a customer out of money or did not stand behind his work if something happened or left town with you parts, but all that he did was take to long to build a couple of CUSTOM engines.

I would rather wait to have reliable engines that last then have them rushed and be overcharged and possibly have problems or no engines at all. Dean is a good guy and a great engine builder who is always there to help you. I am very happy with my gellner engines and he will get my business the next time i need it.

Carl and Mark, i think you are both asses for the comments you have put on this thread. It just took too long thats it!!!! Which is both parties fault.

So Ike

If you sent your engines to an engine builder and he cost you all last summers use of your boat, you wouldn't have a problem with it ???? The use of your boat has no value ????

Explain to me how this 16 month engine rebuild is somehow part Steves fault ??? Us "asses" are curious like that.

Carl, I believe it's "we" asses, not "us" asses. :party-smiley-004:

I never realized there were so many ApacheXxxx guys on here. I feel left out. I'm going to registerApacheChris right now, before it's gone

[QUOTE=ApacheCarl;2634986]So Ike

If you sent your engines to an engine builder and he cost you all last summers use of your boat, you wouldn't have a problem with it ???? The use of your boat has no value ????

Carl, not everyone has your deep pockets to buy already built teague engines and not send yours out to get rebuilt.

Explain to me how this 16 month engine rebuild is somehow part Steves fault ??? Us "asses" are curious like that.

Maybe $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$???

Pete it's"yous" asses:grinser010:

Value is when you can run your engines without having to worry about anything breaking, that's value! Any other builder would have charged double for what I give.

I stand corrected Pete. Sharon, Steve,Krista, Jim, and myself(you know, the ass) will be in South Haven tomorrow by 2:00 pm. Come on down for a drink. If you can get somebody to drive down and pick you up in St joseph you can throttle the boat back home :)

Steve's in South Haven tomorrow... Dang, I'll be in Saugatuk, may have to head a litle further South! :cool:

better let Krista drive :evilb: remember what happened last time...:D

Ouch

How much for the boat ?

[QUOTE=Ike;2635021]Ike

Deep pockets have nothing to do with it. I ran the same merc 800's for 11 years. I did 2 total rebuilds on that set of engines. Pulled the engines, drove them to the engine builder, 12 weeks later, rebuilt engines. When you have the same boat for almost 20 years you have to repower sometimes. The Teagues were part of the resoration of the boat when it hit 15 years old. We are going to keep the boat another 15 years :)

I don't doubt Deans technical abilities, I'm sure he builds a great engine. I do doubt his customer service skills. I did alot of boating with Steve and Krista last year, I know what they went through with this guy. I never said a word about it on the boards. When Dean started to BS about what happened in this thread, well lets say I couldn't hold it in anymore. Hes not an engine builder I would use or suggest to anybody else.

With that I not going to comment on this anymore. I'll leave this thread to Dean posting about value. I'll take my "Perfect A-hole" "assness" someplace else and let the thread be hijacked by the Gellner fan boys.

Just FYI for all of my west Michigan offshore brothers...

I know everyone has their preferences, but you already have one of the best offshore engine builders in the country right here in west Michigan (Jenison/Hudsonville)---Dave Wesseldyk. He does not advertise and is only known by his reputation---reliable product, honest, straight forward, no hype and no bs---and he is an extremely smart dude. Dave is also an SBI world class throttleman.

He is welder, machinist, fabricator, craftsman and is always busy building custom offshore engines for somebody and is usually in his shop 7 days per week. He seems to be getting the majority of his customers from the Chicago area at this time.

Everything he gets is by word of mouth and he is at least worth doing some homework on.

www.wescoracingengines.com

Carl, be careful what you offer: I might just take you up on it!:evilb:

Where will you dock in South Haven?

And how come Steve didn't let ME throttle whe he gave me a ride in my old boat? :grinser010:

I have 1 st hand experience
 

I also had my 496 ho engines (from my 2001 353 fastech) rebuilt by Dean ...I also waited 13 months for them to get finished. The reason I had them rebuilt was I had installed procharged 3.5 boost and did not want to blow up the factory pistons. After 2 seasons of running that way I began to get nervous becuase in order to run it without any major issues we ran her pretty rich.

So in the winter of 06 I gave Dean my engines with the expectations of recieving them back between April and June of 07. Upgrading the boost to 5lb and other modifications to the drives and computors etc,etc,etc, Unfortunatley while the engines everyone is talking about were in Deans shop the delays Dean had with those motors also added to my 13 month ordeal.Then a 3 month wait for my engine installer to install them. Since when I got them back it was his busy season .

The parts delays for those engines and also the delays for my custom made parts... J&E pistons (Dean had to send J&E one of my pistons so they could make them 3 months of waiting)and all the custom valve train components that had to be made because of the way the 496 engine is engineered. (inconel valves 3months...pushrods a month...etc.etc.)Needless to say I was not very happy but it definetly put the misses in a fowl mood especially when she didn't like the reasoning I had to disassemble a boat with only 75 hours on it to begin with.
When we did recieve all the parts I thought great now we can go ...guess again Apache motors in my way of my summer. Unfortunatley I had to wait again.

But to tell you the truth it was a blessing in disguise I was able to due other thing with my family (coached my daughters traveling AAU basketball team ) and really made a awesome connection with her that I could never have done if I did not have the extra time. Looking back I am very displeased with the engine time line but very happy it happened for other reasons.

I understand 100% that it is not acceptable to take this long to rebuild anything but I do understand viewing time and time again some of you OSO posters who have had work done and then had to have it re-done because you wanted it now or found it cheaper or what ever your reasoning is ,that this is more acceptable to you than knowing when I get my engines back I do not have to worry about something I already paid for going bad a second time and shelling out more money again. WHATS WORSE?

My engines are running with minor bugs ...finding the correct props ,computor issues the norm you all know the routine. Dean has been working with me in every way possable to make sure that I am satisfied. I can't recall a bill from him to tune my engines once in the boat, or a bill for the 42 phone calls I give him because of prop selection from Hydramotive or getting in touch with his computor guru to help override my pcm 555 settings.
Sometimes even hard working people who try as hard as they can just can't make everything right.
I do not believe (or ever will believe)Dean ever had any intentions to hose anyone over. I work 2 miles from his shop I also work 70-95 hours a week and I see Dean at his shop staring before 8:00am to past 9:00pm when I go home just about everyday, saturdays included this is probably one reason I never vented on OSO, the man works. At any point the owners of any of these motors could have removed them from his shop that is your choice it also is your choice to leave them there...you must have enough confidence as I did in his abilities to do what you wanted.

People in performance boating know it comes with a price go fast, break, spend more money ,miss a season ,spend more money, fix it ,spend more money,fill up the tank ,SPEND MORE MONEY, truthfully we all know the rules/ if its to rich for the blood then get out. I don't care if you have a 20 foot whatever, you want something bigger or faster but our income dictates everything trust me if you could afford a 150 mph (fill in the blank boat) you would buy one and if a motor pops you pay some absurd price to fly one in this weekend .

Ya I wish things were different but unfortunately it is what it is. I am happy to be boating again and hopefully by the end of this summer I will reach triple digets then all will be well again in my little world.

WOW I've been on vacation and come back to this this, well let me clear up a few details. First of all I' d like to say wake up Dean you could of put this whole issue to rest if you just would have said you were sorry it took 16 months to finish the product, but since you chose to take the unprofessional route of actually acting your customer I feel compelled to clear up some issues. First of all Dean quoted me 8 weeks to complete my motor rebuild and it took 16 months, didit have to take 16 months I don't think so so Mark Mc Manus was able to build and deliver a 50 foot boat with power in 11 months, which I'm sure Dean would agree he would do things differently next time. Is the quality there I'm sure it is however I have never heard the engines run they sure do look nice sitting in my barn but since I didn't get them back until half way through the summer I go to the back of the line for installation which brings me to the end of the summer. As far as the $4500 in work he did for free for me it's small compensation for the 2 years off the water and by the way including the $4500 he did for free he was still $10,000 over the quote he initially gave me. All that said I still wouldn't have been that disappointed if he just would have delivered the product when he said he was going to, there was a 3 month delay in new rods they were on back order which lets face it stuff happens that can't be avoided. I always figued when your dealing with boats figure twice as much as expected and twice as long as expected never in a million years did I plan on it taking 8 times as long for completion. To quote Dean himself he said once he got the rods it would only take 2 weeks to finish if everthing went well, well he got the rods in september and it was a struggle to get the motors by late june, I'm not a mathematician but that's longer than 2 weeks, again if he would have been honest about the time frame it wouldn't have been as devasting but considering I paid for full coverage insurance on my boat for two years on 4 poker runs which Dean insisted the boat was going to be ready for and then it wasn't. I know all of you out there know the cost of such things and know that the $4500 he so called did for free was no bargain, and on top of it all be accused that we have a money issue. Lets be clear I don't have a money issue I'm sure Dean can verify he got paid within a day or week of everytime he sent me a bill and the boat is for sale not must sell, we are living in South Carolina and the inland lakes there really don't require a 41 apache. Just an FYI to Dean a professional way of handling this would have been to say regretably it took 16 months to finish if you could have done things differently you would have but the you think the end result is fantastic. Don't attack your paying customers and give some lame a** excuses for what happen. Don't make promises you can't keep if it's going to take you 16 months tell your customer that. Honesty goes along way, and another note the engines were Richie Zul and they ran fantastic we had no problems with them for over 150 hours of use so please don't imply that they were bags of sh** when you got them because they weren't, anyone who saw Allez Vite run with those motors can agree it ran well. So just be mature and don't blame the previous engine builder or your paying customer and say I'm sorry it took longer than it should have and move on. Again nobody is questioning your quality they are questioning your time frame, because again if Mark McManus can build a 50 foot boat with power in less than 11 months why can't you do an engine rebuild in less than 16 months.

Steve
That is quite an ordeal! I can only hope that when it all is said & done Allez Vite is running awesome for a long time. And Steve Nykamp is happy and smiling about his Apache. If anyone deserves that, it's you.
Ed

Steve,
As we have already discussed between the two of us, the first thing I said when you picked the engines up was I apologize for this taking so long. And yes I would have rather had things work out for the better. As you know when you first called me you said the engines didn't have much run time on them and you wanted a suggestion on what to do. I suggested to do a leak down test and you had that performed. The results were horrible. The original qoute was based "sight un-seen" on the information given that the engines only had about 50-60 hours on them. I didn't expect to see such a mess when we opened them up. As far as the extra cost, you agreed to ever thing before anything was ordered or machine work performed. The bottom line is if you really think the boat ran good before, it's gonna run excellent now! I like you and Krista a lot and do sincerely apologize for the time. I do have video of the engines for you I have to transfer to CD, they sound and run great! I hope to see this project come together down the road, and as I mentioned to you when you picked them up- I will be more than happy to help you put them in the boat. I have my heart and soul in every project we do, and only try to give people the best engines possible from our 50 plus years of knowledge. I will help you all the way.

sure looks like he stands behind his pieces...he didnt just put valve covers on the motors with his name on them....just because he did a valve job...

i would totally use gellner...i spoke with byrdman and said he was happy with him as well on his most recent job

Dave built my motors and i have been 100% pleased!! gave a seasons warranty but have had zero problems with motors, i cant stop breaking trannies and drives. Wesco racing builds a great motor... now its time to start my #6 conversion... wooo hoooo!!

here's some pics

Hey Steve ,I feel for ya, I am in a similar way, since the sale fell on the boat I decided to get her repainted. The boat was delivered to the shop in Feb and is still there. I was told the boat would be done by April 15th. I am very happy with the way the boat is turning out but the delay has put a damper in our boating happiness. I hope to be in the water soon. You guys are about 2 hours away . You guys need to come up and help me break her in. Give me a call 704-634-9004.

David

look nice....realistically how many hours will motors like that run before rebuild?.....

I have a few sets out there right now that are nearing 250 hours and will be coming in for freshen. It all depends on how hard you run them on duty cycles. Proper service and operation are key. I am working on getting the dyno video down sized to post. Thanks.:cool:

with all thats been said....building boat motors is a herculean task......a great test of equipment and preperation.......they never freewheel....work work work......and usually the main reason for failure is the loose nut behind the wheel.......this is just my honest opinion.....based on experiance......not just a keyboard boater......m.m..

Byrdman hates you and what are you talking about????

I don't own an Apache but I must comment.......This poor guy just wants to use his boat, plain and simple. He paid for insurance, probably had some vacations planned around the boat etc. Boating is expensive enough, having to see it sit there for almost 2 years!!!

The second time out in my boat I smoked both Sterlings. They were completely rebuilt in 8 weeks. We had to special order rods, pistons, etc,etc.

I'm sure he builds great motors but that time frame is just insane.....:party-smiley-004:

This is interesting. What went so wrong that you smoked BOTH motors on the same trip out ...? :eek:

Lifters on both motors. Broke the bottom off on two of them and metal started making its way around.

It was strange to see regular duty (smallish) lifters in the Big Chief heads........alot of things Sterling does is a little different.

The boat sat over a year before I purchased it but the motors claimed to have only 15hrs on them.:party-smiley-004:

Been there, done that. Not sure they are where they once were in the non-racing department.

Allez Vite 3000 HP
 

So Apache Pete how fast do you think she would " allez vite " go?
Tom Earhart

She has enough power to run 100+ Tom.

Might want to read the bold print above tom's question. :drink:




Jon

Tom builds a 1500 HP 572 Twin-turbo motor. He's got one in a 30' Checkmate that runs close to 120. I declined a ride offered just yesterday! :eek::eek:

With the current rebuilt Zul motors, I'd guess the old resin bucket 41 Apache could hit 100. Add dry-sump 6's and some modern props, perhaps 107.

Add a pair of Tom's motors, maybe 125-130? :party-smiley-004:

I would NOT want to be onboard at that speed! Much over 100 is asking for trouble, IMO. :mad:

But you would be up to speed and then back to zero so fast you would even have time to worry :drink:

It's Smooth..................very Smooth!

Jon

Maybe we should just put a set of my 557 cu.in PSI supercharged engines in the boat . = 1700 HP each x 2 = 3400 HP and she what she will do. :drink::cool:

and just how long would that take? 2 weeks...:evilb: just kidding Dean...