WMF - please don't post on my thread.

Thinking about droping in a 6.0 or 496HO crusader engine. :party-smiley-004: I did say I just wanted something reliable. :eek: You small block guys oughta like that 6.0. Its pretty popular with the ski boats. Think they would kick me out of the tribe for that? My local marina is a crusader dealer. What do you guys think?

I'm going to hold on to the 454's, we have a high performance engine building school nearby and I'm hoping to make a learning experience out of the 454's, maybe make a set of B engines down the road. Something I won't mind blowing up.

HP: 375 @ 5000rpm
Displacement Liter/CID: 6.0/366 c.i.d.
Cylinders: V-8
Fuel System: Multiport EFI
Full Throttle RPM Range: 5200rpm
Rotation: LH
Length: 43.7”
Width: 27.8”
Height: 24.4”
Total Weight: 990 lbs

HP: 425 @ 5000rpm
Displacement Liter/CID: 8.1L/496 c.i.d.
Cylinders: V-8
Bore & Stroke: 4.25” x 4.37”
Compression Ratio: 9.1:1
Fuel System: Multiport Fuel Injection
Full Throttle RPM Range: 5000rpm
Main Bearings: 4-bolt cast iron
Rotation: LH
Exhaust Outlet: 4” OD
Valve Lifters: Hydraulic
Length: 43.5”
Width: 32.8”
Overall Height: 31.4”
Total Weight w/1:1 : 1200 lbs

I don't see why everyone is so crazy about those 500EFI's, those engines cost as much as a new engine just to rebuild. They've already been rebuilt once. Probobly give you around 150hrs..........and then you'll be back in the same "boat." Fix them up again and you'll be into them for what you would of paid for two brand new engines.......with a warranty. If you want to sell the boat it will still have two heavily used engines.

On the old 454 365hp was the horsepower rated at the prop back then?

If you are willing to put Crusaders in it, and reliability is the most important thing, you may want to look around for a couple of Gray Marine Fireball V-8s.

Good luck.

I haven't found anything to date that explains why crusader engines are not used in performance boats. I think its because the crusaders don't have a drive package. Its cheaper to put the mercury drive/engine combo in a boat than it is to buy a crusader engine and buy seperate merc drives. Because mercury rakes people over the coals when they buy separate pieces, people don't do it.

Ski boats, yachts, fishing boats, all prefer crusader over merc. The load is much less in a performance boat than a 20,000lb cruiser. These new 6.0's have performance aluminum heads and intake. Mastercraft uses crusader engines. They are running these ski boats at WOT for extended periods of time for barefoot skiiers. They are much easier to work on and can last up to twice as long. Power isn't really an issue since they both use the same GM engines with the same horsepower.

I'm just thinking outside the box. This company just has a lot more common sense things that I value over merc. Take the blue paint - its easier to spot leaks on blue paint than it is black. The engine is significantly less cluttered than a merc. The impeller can be changed out in 10 minutes by just about anybody. The cooling system is true closed cooling. The antifreeze cools the exhaust manifolds. The raw water used in the exhaust does not enter until after the manifolds. They have a standard 2 year warranty. Many old crusader engines from the 70's are still running. These engines have a reputation for running up to 2000 hours. I knew this idea would be laughed at by many, but could you imagine if it were successful? I'm all ears for comments, but don't dog my ideas unless you tell me why.

Marine Power is another option I'm looking at. I can get a 496HO with a 6 year warranty and save close to $10,000 over a pair of merc engines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxb_L5cA1rw. Again - all on the same GM engine. They also offer a 6.0 with 375hp http://www.michiganmotorz.com/Marine...+sterndrive%29 Even comes with a diagnostic tool.

Keep in mind this is an open forum, if you dont want any opinions dont start a thread. Now that i have out of the way, choose whatever power that makes you happy! Its your boat and your money so do it up however you like!

Jt

Outside of the box is great. Really makes you think.
Straight 8s would be tempting because of the ease of changing spark plugs and oil filters. Some of the Gray Marine engines from 1940s and 50s are still running, too.
But a diesel would run on biofuels. You could call the boat "fast food," "grease lightning" or "fries and a shake." You'd have the last laugh if gas embargos were ever put in place.

If fast impeller changes are desired, OMC Cobra impellers can be changed in 2 minutes without taking the drive off, while swimming. Just bolt the OMC hub on your engine of choice and you are good to go.

Volvo 270 drives are good, shift easy, and if they pop off the boat doesn't sink, which could be good. Plus, you don't have to worry about drive trim. Pick one of two notches and run.
Also eliminates the need for drive trim indicators and trim pumps.

There's a little more to it than that. Both Fund Razor and WMF can't stand me, which is why I ask WMF to not post. I welcome Fund Razor to this thread as long as he stays on the topic of engines and boats and not tools:D I'm not pissed and I do want all the opinions I can get. Thanks for yours.

Didn't Don Aronow used to put crusader engines in his magnums. Some of them are still running with original power. Could you imagine never having to repower or rebuild an engine after 30 years of use.

Andy, you may want to keep an eye out for volvo 496s, that have some demo hrs on them.
Pat McPherson on this site used it in his 24SB, and was very happy with it. I remember seeing them for sale for around 7-8k ea.

i feel a group hug coming our way?!?!? :circle::party-smiley-020::circle::party-smiley-020:

I think the 500efi's are good deal for 15k -- compared to 40k for new power. But if you want warranty ect then go for new

LOL, Bill - I've never asked you for anything. I tried to show you respect on your resto threads, thats all I ask from you and FR. OK, Group hug :circle:


Now somebody needs to tell me how much of a bad idea this is. The exhaust is a problem, the way it tilts down. I don't think they run power steering pumps either. Almost all of their boats have a rudder system. I have hydraulic with power assist and would like to keep it that way.

Awesome deal, most sell for $12-15K each used.

Volvo 496s cheap is the way to go. If you could get these for the price of rebuilds or anywhere close. Easy decision. That would be your most reliable option. Rebuilt can be great but they are as good as they guy that built it and the parts they use. Nothing worse than being afraid to open it up, thinking it may blow. Or the feeling after something major blows and you just spent thousands.
Consider the costs of the second fix in the cost of the rebuilds.
Save up and spend the extra money now and it will pay off in the long run. Merc or Volvo 496s. Totally different story if you want to spend some more and have connections with a great engine builder.
Good luck.
Greg

Andy I know this can be confusing...but just make it simple.
With the original power the 28 Apache ran 67 tops..(365hp)
Go and get yourself a brand new pair of 6.2 320 hp and that boat will run 63 all day long and give you years of worry free trouble. Small blocks are the key...to easy maintnance and worry free enjoyment without breaking the bank.

If you really want to save money then get the 300hp 5.7 Merc's and you will still be in the 61 mph range.

If I did decide to go with the small block it would most likely be this 375hp 6.0L from Marine Power. Two year warranty, six year extended. Its got 492ftlbs of torque, but I haven't seen the torque curve on it. I should be able to see 70mph with that. Just found out they also plan to do a 6.2 LS3 engine.

I think that a discussion of warranties, and good and bad experiences may be a good idea if a warranty is a major part of the decision for you Andy.

I understand why you would like one. But I am not convinced that they are really any help if you have a problem. In a way... you give up control of the situation. Sometimes it is cheaper to work with a local person you trust when trouble comes along than the manufacturer. Less shipping, less downtime, less remove/replace.... etc.
Just a thought. Obviously... avoiding the costs of a major problem would be worth the downtime, shipping and trouble of working with the manufacturer.

Goop point FR. I don't want any problems.

I looked into the marine power warranties. They said as long as you have a good merc certified mechanic then there is no need for shipping. These are still GM engines.........and not hard to work on. I was told as long as the problem's can be accurately communicated by a knowlegable mechanic then they will reimburse parts and labor. These engines are used all over U.S. and Canada - on new river jet boats, small yachts, and ski boats. If I did need to go down to their headquarters in Louisana it would not be that bad of a drive.

I may just go buy a 502 415hp block with heads and dress it up with my old accessories. It would cost about half as much as buying new turn key. Throw on some shiny blue paint :D Hmmmmmm..........

I always thought the 28 Apache was similar in weight and hull efficiency w/Active Thunder 28(1999)??
Why would you estimate the top speed @ 61mph w/ 350magMPI's?? I have seen 72 gps and run 68-70 fully loaded w/400 hrs on my 350/300hp; although I do have the Stainles Marine exhaust systems....
I believe my boat weighs 5500 dry...what's the 28Apache weigh w/tsb's?
24 degree? Notch or pad??

Sorry, not trying highjack thread! Love to follow these 28 Apache threads; I see alot of similarities w/AT and APACHE's....(that's a compliment!)

I can't remember but wasn't the 302 Baja a 28 Apache bottom???

uht ohh!!!.......

I'm not sure at all i just remember the old baja dealership here in Dallas once told me that baja used one of the old apache bottoms and i thought it was the old 302 Baja that used it. Don't hold me to it guys cause i'm not 100%.

Regardless i love the 28 Braves and i can't wait to see Andy's finished project.

No, I think that it was the 35 Fountain that used it.
Kidding. :D

There are a couple of guys around who worked at the Baja plant in Ohio. If anybody knows... it may be them.

Straight 24 degree, no pad or notch, 7000lbs dry.....with big blocks. From my research the sbc's are only around 250lbs less (each) so around 6500lbs with sbc's. Hadn't heard that about the 302 baja, their 36 came from cigarette. Anybody have some hull pics of the 302 baja we can compare? I agree with Angel's assessment of the expected speed with the 350 mag, just by going off of what Froberg said he saw with a 320hp sbc (63mph) and the speed of mine as originally power (454 365hp 67mph). Still not the speed I'm looking for (atleast 70). The 6.0 would get me there. I know it would be reliable, but I keep thinking about how I went out last year. A 25-26 eliminator pulling up alongside, nice 2-3ft chop, hit the sticks and swallowed a valve. There will come another time and I can't let ol Collin smoke me in his 24ft Cig:D

I've done quite a bit more research on the GM marine crate 502 415hp and that seems to be the biggest bang for the buck. I figure since merc and marine power pretty much just use GM engines with their own accessories then I might as well get a GM marine complete long block with heads and switch over my accessories. I've already got the 850 holley, all I need is a new intake manifold. Should end up with a relatively cheap 500hp. Pretty sure the local builder could back this up with a 6 month warranty. Thanks to all that have recommend this route - took a little while, but I'm finally listening.

Why not just buy the 500 EFI's for 15k? Those look great...looks can be decieving, but the guy has a good rep...
I would think for that $$ you could afford to have them freshened up and be set for many seasons....
Plus, you'd see upper 70's..right??

Yep, they would be plenty of power, but they are still used engines.......about 420hours worth. IMO they are close to rebuild time. Last time I checked it was around $10K a piece to rebuild those 500EFI's I could pay the exact same price ($7,500 each) for a rebuilt blueprinted 502 with 0 hours straight from potter performance and probobly get a warranty out of it. I would be willing to do something like that. I also saw Ateco had some remanufactured engines that seem like a great bang for the buck http://www.offshoreonlyclassifieds.c...o26911-en.html I tentatively estimate around $15K to do the 502 crates ($11K for the engine and parts + $4k to put together, paint, and dyno). Where's Matt at - think thats a reasonable number with Leon doing all the work?

I'm sure the 500EFI is a better engine, but I doubt it would give me the kind of hours I'm looking for.

Good points....although I got higher quotes from Potter.... the 500efi's have 140hrs since last freshen up. Does that mean that the bottom end has 420hrs? & is that alot? I guess I had no idea that the 500EFI's would only last 400 hrs AND cost 10k to rebuild, but it does sound correct more I think of it.
Andy, if you are looking for putting over 1000 hrs on motors maybe you should just buy some Yanmars!!LOL
BTW, What does it take to make a 28Apache go 80mph? I'm guessing 500hp per side??

Yep, around 480-500hp IMO.

At $6-7.5K a pop I won't care all that much if they don't last 250 hours. At $15-17K a pop they better last 500+ hours.

Potter 502's http://www.offshoreonlyclassifieds.c...o26972-en.html

Andy, you already know what I would do...

NEW 502 415HP marine crates. With the 850 and merlin dual plane they will make 450HP. Use your accessories!! Clean them up, paint them, whatever.

Do as much as you can yourself. I will help you dress them, get the intakes on, etc. All you then do is dyno them and install. Done deal. Lets get this thing in the water.

We can make this really painless, and you will know what you have because you are involved in everystep.

andy you know what i would do too

shove some big a$$ blower motors and some 6's on that b!tch and lets go have some fun. if it breaks we will deal with it then!!

I fixed your idea.

with what i've seen 500hp will get you around mid seventies...

Sweet, I'm pumped.

Andy, i'm thinking you better have an open mind and checkbook while owning this boat.

Yup, I've already got an open mind, just need an open checkbook.

I don't think these crates are bad engines at all. Same motor that Merc used for the 502 Mag. Derebery, and Cheif both use this same engine for their low horsepower (under 450hp) applications. Only difference is the accessories. The failure rate on a GM crate engine has always been significantly less than custom builders and for obvious reasons. Numerous members here and on other forums have used them. I've even heard of people running superchargers on them straight out of the box. Even read a few post by Dennis Moore on hotboat regarding how good of an engine this is for marine applications.

well hes going to have to keep the bilge pump on cause hes going to have hole is one side of the transom with that set up... lol

Froberg could convert it to a single engine. He has built a couple of single engine 28 apache's, but they had a much lighter hull.

Single BBC now that's the ticket !

WHY!?!