28 Brave OSO Project
 

I'd like to have a little fun with this project thread.:evilb: Constructive criticism is welcome, and don't sugar coat it:evilb: This is my first project, so I'll try not to pretend like I know exactly what I'm talking about.:drink: I will greatly appreciate any help and criticism I can get along the way. For that reason I dub this an OSO project. When all said and done I'd like to be able and look back and think that you all had something to do or say with this boat.

The boat is a 1990 28 Apache Brave, built for and featured in the 1990 Miami Boat Show. Still sports the original one off custom Gail Pak graffics, which is in great condition, minus the top deck. I'm told this boat has seen a couple of owners. Two OSO members I know of for sure - CFD5 - sold it to PowerPlayDave, which is who I bought it from sight unseen (that will be the last time I do that). I believe it had an owner in New Jersey who sold it to someone in Pennslyvana, who sold it to CFD5 in Ohio then to Maryland. I had it transported from Maryland to TX last December. The boat has seen alot of water, if anybody knows any slice of history on this boat I would greatly appreciate it. I got the boat with 221 hours on it and I believe thats pretty accurate.

Pics of some of the previous owners I found floating around OSO.

Couple of picks when I took delivery.

I got four weekends out of her, one gave......you know the rest. I've decided to repower it which will hopefully be the right way to get 10+ reliable years out of her. The heads and intake are both corroded and need to be replaced. Its got two 850 holleys, stainless marine exhaust, not sure on the heads or intake. Bottom is whats left of a Merc 454 365hp. They dynoed 460hp. I want new engines full dress, but would like to hear opinions on why I should build up what I've got or not. For me its a long-term cost thing. I want to drive this boat for 10-20 years. The estimates I got were a little less than some new full dress engines and I can't really justify spending half the cost of a new one to fix up an old one. I'm not really looking for speed. 70mph would be good, I know it went 67 with the stock 365hp. Just want something reliable so I can stay out on the water.

The 4 weekends I got out of her.

Couple more. Late spring:(:D

Wife & twin sister.

Private boathouse, family's lakehouse, best sunset views on the lake.

What's our budget?:cool-smiley-011: At least you got to enjoy a few months, I broke first trip out this spring.:rolleyes:

I'm getting there Bill :drink: This project is probobly going to take 3-4X what yours did, not because it the work will be any better, I just don't have the same budget.

Right now the outdrives are getting repainted. I'm hoping to have the the bilge repainted in the winter.

Upon close inspection of the transom.........I found red paint underneath. Pretty sure this boat had a red transom originally. You can see the red where the white paint is chipping off just below the transom assemply. They didn't take off the trim tabs either and you can see red in between the tab and the transom mount.

So my tentative plan is to first fix up the transom - new paint on drives, tabs. Either try and revive the old red imron transom or gel coat it white. Then I figured I'd go ahead and seal up the transom after I replace all the thru hull fittings and hoses. Basically restore the whole azz end of the boat.

Ouch, I'd flip if that happened to me on a 03 boat.

Budget - $10,000 on cosmetics and some light hardware. $35,000 on engines full dress, turnkey and go. As much as I'd like to, I don't have anytime to work on this myself. Maybe if I'm lucky I can get Excaliburhawk41 to come take a look:rolleyes::drink: Probobly 95% of the work will be done by the local yacht club. There reasonable, I trust them, and the mechanic is one of the best on the lake. He even worked with Derebery. They specialize in fiberglass restoration and I think there more than capable, but I would listen to other local suggestions.

Matt, is very good, he was at Deberery when my 496's were throwing me a fit.

Andy, don't just paint the drives. Take them off and have them gone through.
What cosmetically are you thinking about?
A pair of new 496mags HO's should get you moving 70+ and be very reliable. You may find some some dealer on this site looking to make a deal, or some low hr take outs.
Aren't they like 14k new drop in?
Also, if you want to upgrade, you can do a raylar job.

As far as the transom, can you un rig it and get it back to the red gelcoat?
If the hull sides are nice, leave them... i like that paint.
It is something that helps ID this as an apache.
The deck can just get white paint.
Maybe you'd want to respray the dash white and do red bezel gauges.
How's the cockpit interior? maybe just a re-skin?
The cabin looks fine... if so, then no touchie!

Yep, I probobly should go through the drives, but they've seen a lot of salt. We went through them over the spring and didn't see anything. I'm not puting in big power, so they should be fine, but I will listen to the arguments. They don't have a lot of hours. I say if it ain't broke don't fix it. If they do break, then I'll buy a new set of outdrives. I researched the topic and alot of people say the rebuild cost almost as much to replace..........doesn't make sense to me, but I'm willing to listen.

Cosmetics - the whole top deck needs to get restored. Lots of cracks around the fairing, alot like Bills. I will probobly get to that this time next year. Transom & bilge I already talked about. Interior needs a new wrap and new floor/carpet, but not on my short list. Cabin is fine, maybe do some new lighting in there. Dash is in great shape. I will add a couple of new gaugues. The paint job will stay, hull is still in great shape, minus some areas around the bow where it looks like the anchor bounced around in the anchor hatch. Cheap repair was done and its now spider cracking on the outside.

I like the 496HO's because there reliable and its new merc power with a warranty. Your pricing is about right. I'm not sold on any of that raylar stuff. I'd rather have a 502. I'm on the fence over a mild Chief 415hp 502 by Chief or a 496HO. I got some great pricing on some 502 long blocks with heads, but I'd still have to get the intake manifolds and new exhaust. Either way I've got a lots of time to think about it.

Oah!!!, nice pics. Thanks for the find. I got to tell you though. After my last engine woes I don't want to see any aluminum. Also not a fan of 425hp out of 383ci. I know some have protective coatings and some don't. Even if it did have protective coating it doesn't sound like the best idea, only a matter of time before the coating breaks down. But I'm not an engine guru so you guys lay it on me. Aluminum vs cast iron. I'm looking for 500+hrs and less than 500hp and I'm not going to flush the engines. In a perfect world I'd buy some new 502 415MAGS.

andy,

i love your 28 and will help in any way i can with the restore project. i will be down this weekend and would like to check it out if you are going to be around?

andy

Sorry Andy, I'm going to have to work this weekend. I was lucky enough to get off for the game because I'm an OU alum. I would greatly appreciate any help and Im looking forward to some good times. I'll be bouncing off ideas on you, Matt, and Collin - he seems to be a little bored now that his project is done :D You, Matt, and Collin did a lot to inspire this project. Keep me posted next time you can make it down. If you guys really want to roll up the sleeves I could put you up for a night or two.......and pay for all the beer:ernaehrung004:

Do you guys know if I can bring back the shine in the external hydraulic steering? One guy told me to use some sort of toilet bowl cleaner, but I forget what it was called. I didn't think the shine could be brought back. I need to add some bling to the transom.

I'd also like to get some more feedback on rebuilding the outdrives. If anybody has rebuilt the outdrives would you do it again or just buy some new ones. I'm thinking if the drives need to be rebuilt after 230 hours, then I don't really want them back on the boat.

Couple of pics when it was on the Chesapeake Bay

The boat needs a name.

Couple more when it was in Maryland.

You can see the old Merc racing shifters have seen better days. I'll replace those. The starboard side likes to stick sometimes. Sometimes I have to shift reverse first in order to get it to engage forward. Not sure if a new shifter would fix that or if the problem is somewhere else.

I think a new wrap can wait.

Get some actual pricing on rebuilding them. It shouldnt be anywhere near the cost of new fully dressed. Save the difference for cosmetic stuff. Whatever you budget will be under by at least 30%. Take the exhaust tips out and check for rot and delamination. I almost bought your boat a few years back before CFD5 got it......

Last for now. The cabin has as much headroom as most 35ft+ boats do. Porta potti hatch needs some new latches.

Thanks for posting Steve. You've done some great work on some of your boats and I value your opinion especially your budget minded taste. CFD5 was a lot of help and very nice guy. Both the engines are out, the autopsy revealed corroded heads & intake. Rebuild was priced at $8-9K each, which includes new heads and intake, backed up with a local warranty. Derebery quoted me 3-4K for rebuild without looking and with out new heads/intake so I think thats a pretty good number. Another quote was $10k total rebuilt with new heads and installed. Derebery has stock Merc replacements for close to the same price. Check it out - http://www.dereberyperformancemarine...k_Engines.html. Govictorymarine priced their 496's on Ebay for $10K http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/Pa...id=p4506.c0.m1 I think both builders start out with new long blocks and add slightly used intake systems.

Exhaust tips will be replaced. I was going to strip everything off the transome, check for rot, and seal it up tight. Do you think thats a good idea or is that a little overkill. I saw the inside of the transom after the engines were removed and it looks prettry good. I'd like to do that first because if I find any suprises it will significantly change my budget.

Cfd5

HHahahhaha, I almost wet myself! 30%....I only wish project/updates only went over budget by 30%.

I'd take whatever amount you can't possibly imagine ever spending, you know they kind of money that gets you divorced when the wife finds out...then double that and you'll come in just over that!:eek:

35K for motors sounds pretty close when you pay for everything including pull, rig, new hoses, couplers, starters. oil pumps..yadda..yadda yadda..

My rebuilt carb to pan 500HP's that became 509's with everything new were $12,500 each including having the 250 blower shop blowers rebuilt. Only thing reused was the exhaust and the oil pan, nothing else.

You might as well do all your shift, thottle and tab, drive indicator cables while the motors are out. The new cables all move much easier and it's also eaier to do while everythings out. Do you bilge pumps, blowers, switches etc. If you don't you'll be replacing things you wish you would have done while the bilge was cleaned out and easy to work in.

Your 45K budget is probably pretty close really depending on what all you do. The little stuff adds up and that is usually where it gets you.

get with carter and jryan in your area. those guys know good shops with good pricing for rebuilds and parts. you should be able to rebuild with new pistons/heads/intakes/carbs/exhaust for under 7k each if you put it back together yourself starting with an assembled short block.

as far as the transom. if it were me i wouldnt do much to it unless it has a "serious" moisture problem. almost all older boats will show "some" moisture but whether or not it needs attention is the question.

forgot..

the key to save is doing all the grunt work yourself.

Andy,don't be affraid of aluminum. The whole top of my mill is aluminum and I only boat in salt. 2 years now and they still look new.Flushing is the key if you do any boating in salt.It only takes a few mins to be safe. Good luck

Personally I would go with twin small blocks...call me crazy if you want but the balance will be better ....and with the price of gas.! Ouch twin BBC...and easier to work in bilge and you will never blow or hurt a drive either. My 28 Pantera had twin small blocks and it was sweet!!

how much change in the rigging would there be w/ sbcs?
How about the engine mounts?

Andy, be careful how far you dig, you will wind up deep. I think we can help do a couple projects and get the boat where you want it.

You need to sell the SeaRay and free up some engine money.

Not sure if you have seen mine in the rough. It started out as a rebuild engines and reupholster job. Pictures of everything here.

http://community.webshots.com/user/excaliburhawk

Thanks, I think mine were on for 3 years............

I guess I could do closed cooling which should fix my worries. I don't do any boating in the ocean, but I do have some places on my bucket list I'd like to take the boat to.

Yeah buddy, nice restoration. Those engines look like gold, very nice. I recall seeing it in rougher shape at the 2005 High Roller Poker Run. Perhaps I need some more consultation before I jump into this blindfolded. Did you rebuild your engines or buy new? They look new

SeaRay is not mine to sell. Its a family boat I take care of. I consider it mine because I'm the only one who drives it and takes care of the maintenance, but it doesn't cost me anything. Ahhhhhh the perfect boat.......one you don't have to pay for.:drink: Thats the beauty of the Sea Ray - I could spend 5 years on this project and not lose any boating time. The big engine money won't come for 2-3 years. I figured best to get it in shape in the mean time.

Thats a good topic for conversation. Velocity Vector found some nice 383's - where did you find those by the way? Thats a hell of a deal with outdrives.

I've heavily reasearched the topic and I have found some interesting findings, which are in no way meant to criticize your post.

1) My twin 454's 450hp burned about as much as my single 24ft did with a 502 390hp. I was suprised that the consumption did not increase significantly. I even recall Griff saying that he burned more in his 28 pantera with single 525SC than he does in his 32 AT with twins. I'm sure the twin sbc's would be less fuel than the big blocks, but I'm pretty happy with what I'm burning now. I think the higher RPM's of the sbc to get the same power at the lower RPM's of the big block would outweigh any fuel savings.

2) Is it easier on the outdrives? Just a few months ago there was a guy from the bahamas who bought a used 28 Pantera hull and was rigged with twin 6.2's by Jo. I think he maid it a month or two before he had drive problems. He probobly needed to run at higher rpm's vs the big block to achieve a satisfactory cruise speed. Maybe he didn't have the magic touch, but I would venture to say that for cruising purposes a big block pushing 3-3500rpms would be better on the drives than a sbc pushing 4-4500rpms to get the same speed.

3) Reliability????? Spillman has twin 350's in his 28AT. I think they only made it around 300hrs. Someone check me on that. Again, I think this goes back to the rpms he needs to push the boat at cruising speeds. I once read one of the best recipes for reliability is 75% throttle 75% of the time, or something like that. I think for reliability purposes it would be ideal to have an engine that will give me great cruising speed at lower rpms. The 454 450hp had great cruising at 3000rpm, which is were I had it most of the time and probobly why my gas wasn't much. I was trying to baby it........alot of good that did:rolleyes: If I wanted to increase the hp down the road I also think the big block would be easier to do it on. It seems like most sbc's need superchargers for REAL hp increases.

4) Balance? This ain't no 28 Pantera. I have been in both with big bolcks. IMO the apache is better balanced with big blocks than the pantera. Its a bigger, heavier boat and stands taller in the water. I have had some airtime and I was very happy with the landing and how the nose carries. Please, let not get into a pissing match between the two boats. I think the geniuses who crafted this boat balanced it as perfect as you can balance a 28 with twin big blocks. For that reason I don't think its a good idea to significanlty alter the balance of the boat by taking 1000lbs off the rear. It does have a little porpoise in calm water as do most all boats under 30ft with twin big blocks, but she flies level.

It would be much cheaper and easier to work on with sbcs, but I'm not convinced I'll get the reliable hours I'm looking for. So what do you guys think?

LOL, the 28 apache has as deep engine bay and would proboly fit those without scoops. Gunsmoke had twin 850's, pretty sure this is the fastest 28 Apache.

If I can be of any help don't hesitate to call.

Office: 954-525-8808
Cell: 786-586-0450

Good Luck,
Eric

I don't claim to know much about this stuff but I would say concentrate your initial energy and $ in getting the engines running or replaced. Once the bilge area is done than you can work on the other items. Definately do it right and replace everything when you have it apart or like Mike said you will be wishing you had.

This way you still have a boat to use during the process. I am just an average guy and for me it would be tough for me to justify dumping 50k into my boat in one chunk but 8-10k a year for a few years is a little easier to swallow and I am still getting towards my goal (plus I know I will never be satisfied anyhow).

As far as the engines go I really like my 502 efi's even though they aren't the fastest option in my heavy 36'. I change the oil and put fuel in, nice and simple. I get between 1.2 and 1.5mpg depending how I am running which I think is pretty good.

I look forward to watching your progress.

-Josh

Andy, looks like a great project. I will be very happy to help any way that I can. I`ve rigged a boat or two in my time.

I have a very interesting proposition for you, concerning engines. I will drop you an email tomorrow. I think you will be pleased to hear.

My engines are @ 400 hrs and I have a valve issue,nothing major. I get 2.4-2.6 mpg @ 3800-4000rpm's. I don't think any boat w/twin bbs will come close. I get over 2mpg wot. My drives have been inspected 3 x since 2005 and are like new. You can't beat Bravo's w/sb's pushin em...I would think the 383's would be perfect and w/425hp per side you would see upper 70's....maybe 80 in perfect conditions; tweaking the props. My engines have always been turn-key; and I run wot more than 50% time. With fuel $$$'s I would consider the 383's...What does your boat weigh w/bb's? The Raylar 550package is sweet, but big $$....

[QUOTE=TexomaPowerboater;2710960]Thats a good topic for conversation. Velocity Vector found some nice 383's - where did you find those by the way? Thats a hell of a deal with outdrives.

the outdrives? Just a few months ago there was a guy from the bahamas who bought a used 28 Pantera hull and was rigged with twin 6.2's by Jo. I think he maid it a month or two before he had drive problems. He probobly needed to run at higher rpm's vs the big block to achieve a satisfactory cruise speed. Maybe he didn't have the magic touch, but I would venture to say that for cruising purposes a big block pushing 3-3500rpms would be better on the drives than a sbc pushing 4-4500rpms to get the same speed.

3) Reliability????? Spillman has twin 350's in his 28AT. I think they only made it around 300hrs. Someone check me on that. Again, I think this goes back to the rpms he needs to push the boat at cruising speeds. I once read one of the best recipes for reliability is 75% throttle 75% of the time, or something like that. I think for reliability purposes it would be ideal to have an engine that will give me great cruising speed at lower rpms. The 454 450hp had great cruising at 3000rpm, which is were I had it most of the time and probobly why my gas wasn't much. I was trying to baby it........alot of good that did:rolleyes: If I wanted to increase the hp down the road I also think the big block would be easier to do it on. It seems like most sbc's need superchargers for REAL hp increases.

52mph@3000rpm's
57mph@3400rpm's
62mph@3800rpm's
67mph@4200rpm's
72mph@wot-4750

55-58mph is great cruise speed for me; 2.6mpg is really GREAT!

Thanks for posting Spillman and others, those numbers really help and gives me a different perspective. Thats right about were I want to be performance wise. Those are just stock 350's correct? 300hp? This boat weighs around 7,000lbs dry with the big blocks. Did you ever find out what the AT weighs? With the cost savings I could go through two pairs and spend the same.

Anybody else want to talk me into buying small blocks? Derebery mentioned his 383's have big block torque and didn't seem too imposed to the idea. My mechanic sure would appreciate working on the small blocks. I'm worried the nose won't carry as good and the rough water ride won't be as good because of the weight loss. Do you guys think the weight savings would significantly alter the ride in rough water?

Thanks, outdrives were alphas.

I'm telling you sbc with Bravo's is the way to go. The sbc vs bbc weight difference would be about 150-200lbs. per engine...once warranty expires on them slap a nice set of heads and some real nice exhaust and your done.
BTW My 28 Pantera had sbc's turning Alpha SS drives and they never gave me a single issue.

You know where i stand on sbcs.