He is not the only one who thinks that the new 50 is ugly. Just curious, are you related to Mark in any way or a business partner? I always see you defending him in Apache threads that question the littlest thing he does or does not do. Not a bad thing, just curious about the devotion.

I love Apache threads, they never fail to entertain. I also would have loved to see what Thad Allen would have done with the Apache name; it would have added another topic to debate and argue. :drink:

I am in !!!!!!!!

Do not whant to miss that ,,,sean i even drive for ya !!! Or throttle !!!!

Scott

Tristar
Let me satify your curiosity. I am not related to Mark nor am I a business partner. I appreciate his powerboats.
Apache Powerboats is a small, custom, offshore powerboat company that started with a pedigree second to none. Don Aronow designed 41 rough water hull. Mark McManus built the boats, Bobby Moore rigged them and Keith Eickert powered them. Let's not forget Mercury Racing's part with their speedmaster drives. Ben Kramer, Bob Saccenti, Tom Evans had a racing team that was superior in every way. A real true offshore rough water racing effort. Not like what is seen today where the powerboats will turn around and come back to port if it's "too rough" ....Well, the world spins a few rotations and tosses the dice out of the cup.....what happens? Don Aronow is shot dead, Ben Kramer is imprisoned for life, Bob Saccenti has other powerboat company ventures, and Mark McManus is awarded Apache Powerboats.
Mark refurbishes and upgrades the older Apache Powerboats, he also builds new Apache Powerboats. I know you don't like the looks of the 50' but that's ok, because the man that had it built does. Maybe your tastes are more traditional and inline with Spirit of Apache, go to the video section on the Apache website and check out the custom features. It is way over the top! Mark can tailor the Apache to whatever the customer desires. That is what he does and who he is, a "Master Offshore Powerboat Builder"
Thad Allen was a drug addict, liar and screwball with a lot of money. No offshore powerboat contributions at all. Where is he now? Who cares?
Ed

Guys, any day we have a new Bimini Race and I can make it is your day.For now, I am tesing the new 39 Motion with JT from TNT either next wednesday of Thursday, if you want to run with us, please show up at TNT in the afternoon on both these days.

[QUOTE=Comanche3Six;2848047]Tristar
Let me satify your curiosity. I am not related to Mark nor am I a business partner. I appreciate his powerboats.
Apache Powerboats is a small, custom, offshore powerboat company with a pedigree second to none. Don Aronow designed 41 rough water hull. Mark McManus built the boats, Bobby Moore rigged them and Keith Eickert powered them. Let's not forget Mercury Racing's part with their speedmaster drives.

Well by all means, Mark has an excellent track at building boats and winning ones too. That 50 Cold War was a one off and cannot reflect Marks ability of building boats. I wouldn't criticize the looks but rather applauds Mark's business acumen, 2 million for that is pretty extraordinary, I would have bought a Magnum instead. Yet, if you explore the Apache website, he has some pretty cool looking sit downs versions of boats I would have liked to see in real instead of a design on a website. I am more interested in what can be done today. I hope I can sit down in one of these one day but I am afraid my business acumen tells me i will have hole in my pocket before I can do so, these babies look terribly expensive.

Awarded? I have read other descriptions of that transaction. Like many things Apache, you have two sides to every story and Im sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I especially liked your description of where Bob went. :rolleyes:

The one thing I do not understand is why so few new Apaches are being made.

Mark has many different model types listed on that site, but what has been made recently? I mostly see refits. I dont doubt Apaches rough water abilities, but its odd to me that such a great boat does not have more demand for production, assuming someone is willing to built them for a fair price. Do modern day Cigs, Panteras, etc really perform that much worse than an Apache in rough water? Why dont we see more new Apaches?

As a brief footnote in Apache history, I care. Just like I care about the history of the Scout, who made them in the past (Century, etc), and who has the molds now. I care about what Bob Saccenti and Eric Froberg are doing and what they attempted to do as well. I can see you have harsh words to describe Thad, I dont know him personally but I do know he had some nice molds designed and CNC'd before the effort went south...

2mil for Cold War? Wow...

Sir,,,we where talking about V-BOTTOM not a cat !!!!!

Also i think we where talking next year ??? ,,,and in a official race SIB > Bimini and back !!!

I be there this year but only with my Aero-tek,,,still would love to meet you and chat about this !

Scott

LOL!
Well, I see this Apache thread is gaining a little steam, like they almost always do! Just for the record, I love look of "Cold War" and would enjoy seeing some pics of it with the cockpit interior. Or any other pics of it or Tsunami. Two of my favorite Apache Powerboats. Do you hear me Duna, how about some pics!
Thanks
Ed

Scott,
I don't know where I will be next year so excuse me if we don't meet then. I din't mean to challenge you with my Cat, just let you know my plans. I am actually flying 20 hours ( Geneva Switzerland-New York-Miami) for this test over two days. I will most certainly run Key West in November's Poker Run, racing courses is over for me, too old now at forty with 5 kids and many other old people in the family to feed but who knows I might go crazy,buy myself a new V bottom and run you to Bimini and back(ach)

Tristar
Top Banana gave a good answer to that

ED,
Do a search you will find pics on this board, search Apache Cold War on this search you will find a video and some...well lets just say interesting pics of the boat in rough seas,let me know what you think!

Omar
If these are the pics, it looks like "Cold War" is at speed in some rough seas. Jumped a wave and landed almost at the base of another huge wave. (enduring an incredible amount of sea pressure) Pushed through that wave intact and powered forward. I read your comments where you thought it was too heavy to run rough water effectively. I agree that a somewhat lighter hull is more nimble, but it better not sacrifice strength in a situation like that! Or the results could be disastrous.
Ed

Hi Guys, Wow this discussion is heating up.
Well the boat ran as you would expect a boat of this calibre to run, not the fastest OK, but a sur ride. What would i change,
if i was paying quite a lot i would keep it simple. But it is what it is. Things can and do change. Sea Trials with Bob Teague we ran the boat easily in triple numbers' A few days later with
JT at TNT the sea conditions were not in our favor for one or two minor reaseons ! No seating, No Life Jackets on very little security and a boat not finished. However the results and potentiel was apparent. One Hell of a lot of boat, In the inland waterway we ran few a few photo's of the boat knowing conditions were a little rough outsde , On the sea we ran no more than 65- 70 mph due to lack of equipment and JT making the call to take it easy as the boat could eat it up.
Running in 8- Ten & some twelve footers . The boat was running to slow to take awesome shots.....DUNA:ernaehrung004:

Hi Duna
Looking forward to some more in depth pics of Cold War! Tsunami too!
Thanks
Ed

Your telling me you think that Panteras (or Cigs) are not going to do as well as an Apache in the rough? Really?

I suppose its tough to compare, since most of Pateras stuff is in the 28-36 foot range, and the Apaches I assume you are referring to are mostly 41s...

Im not trying to argue here, but more or less am looking for a realistic and sensible answer. Panteras are well known for their abilities in rough water, I just think its a bit over-zealous to say nothing can come close to a 20 year old Apache; since there hasnt been much in terms of new boats under the Apache name. If I'm wrong, hey Im always willing to learn.

Boy what a sea trial!!!!! what happened to the boat now, is it still running in florida? I think a cut down sit down version of a newly rigged 47 with twins should do great in this stuff. Never change a winning formula, the 47 was still the best rough water boat I ever had but today even with the more powerful engines a little less weight can still accomplish great results. I wish I will live long enough to see this day I would love to bring 47's back to the scene!

Hi Omar,

Welcome to OSO and a pleasure to see your intrest in Apache
continues. Maybe it is time to step up to the plate and build the boat of your dreams. I agree a twin sit down with todays power is the way to go and its about time someone did it
step or no steps just build a cool new boat and get those great sensations that you are in an Apache powerboat. Unique.
From what i can read you have a large family,and still young be safe go Apache. Build a sit down 50' and whip those GUYS in Tropez !!!! its about time. DO IT. Duna

Not going to get in the middle of this one for sure.....both Bob and Mark are friends of mine and we have all raced against each other in real ocean conditions....and that breeds a special bond with people.

That said.....Omar come on....at forty your ready to sit on the beach? Get ready,,,HORBA is going to put on a little run from Miami to Key west next February (yes, the winter water is bigger!!) That would be a nice place to test a new Vee bottom.

Duna.....found some more photos of Bounty Hunter....click on the HORBA website and don't click to enter....wait and you will get a slide show...one of those photos is Fayva Shoes Cat and Vee together at the docks....for your collection.

www.historicraceboats.com

Ed
I didn't feel the need to insult another man's design tastes. I felt the need to express my Opinion and that's what I did. If you like it, I'm not going to criticize you or anyone else for their personal taste. Pardon Me For Having An Opinion Different From Yours!

My last comment intrigues you...What is it 2 new boats out of the Apache factory in the last, what, 5 years? I have every ounce of faith in the world, in his ability to build boats. There has been a lot of ideas put on the drawing board and not many turn into boats, yet. And, its not a personal attack on Mr. McManus. Please, don't attempt to make it seem that way. Plain and Simple...I was commenting on what I, particularly, would like to see Apache build.

There is a market out there for fast, sit-down, luxurious, and stable riding V-bottoms. Outerlimits has proved that already. I'm not saying to use the building techniques either. Not a lot of people want to buy the first boat and spend the time/money on the R&D.

The rest on laurels comment...There has been some changes to the deck, rigging, and interior, but, not any other changes made to the boat, like running more efficiently with smaller power. Oh wait, there was the padded keel added to one recently.

I wouldn't say or comment anything on here, that, I wouldn't say in person. People that know me know that to be true.

Big Andy

Hi Duna,
I would love to build a new project but I am afraid Mark would not be able to satisfy all my needs. First, I do not want to pay above market prices for what will be a simple twin engine 6 person sit down boat. Second, the deck needs to be redone to fit a cut down sit down boat so that will be extra. Third, I know he will want to build a heavy hull and deck using ultra layers kevlar & carbon to be bullet proof standard (i don't need a military boat) that is an overkill for a rough water boat. Forth, I want a simple boat without all the wistle gages that Mark put on Apache's, they nerver work properly so are a headache and you need 6 pairs of eyes just to keep track of them at a +100Mph, at that speed your eyes are on the sea plus now you have race views which replace all that. I cannot see Mark build one for less than 750K and I don't think having an Apache for that price makes sense for me but I am willing to be proven wrong and I always like to be proven wrong when it comes down to having something outperform my inital expectations.
P.S. Forget about St Tropez for power boating, you get yeld at when you do noise plus no one is capable of servicing these boats properly, high performance boating paradise is still florida. You want to have a diesel boat in St Tropez.

Charlie has access to the Chief molds :drink: This is a GREAT thing

I have as much seat tiome in the 42 chief as the current owner (ok almost as much) The boat and Hull are amazing and I have run the boat in 6 to 8s in Lake Michigan and the boat is unbelievable in the rough stuff

The hull is great!!

the old owners of the company were idiots and killed the company by abusing the first owners investments into the boat

I would love to see Charlie and Bobbie build a new one

Big Andy
Apache is a small custom powerboat company, I don't think you will ever see new ones sitting around on a boat dealers lot in a variety of colors and power options waiting for buyers. Especially in a bear market.
When you by a new Apache you will have the pleasure of sitting down with Mark and getting his full attention, experience and input. You will be able to custom tailor your Apache to exactly what you desire. Being that involved with the builder gives your Apache a personal custom touch.
Andy, I am sure that there will be detractors spouting off negative comments in person or on a board like OSO to anything you build. I am know you won't appeciate it, nor would I.
Ed

LOL!
Omar
Sounds like you are ready raise the bar with a new Apache!
Ed

Duna
Thanks for the pics.
Ed

That is really COOl WAR!!!!!! You see,we can all change our minds with the right pictures!

Apache1,

I have an idea!!! Have Charlie (Top Bannana) build you a 41' but ask them to have Skater/MTI or one of the other high-end cat builders like Mystic do the lay-up! :drink:

Speaking of Skater, I wonder how their V rides? I've never been in one.

Hi Panther,
I talked about the Skater 399V yesterday, I never took a ride in it but I think from watching Key West races that it kinda rolls from side to side a little at high speeds. I am not sure I would go with the top banana solution, I have not tested the bottom on the steps on that boat. At the end, Donzi ZRC is still the best option plus you can buy one cheaper than anything else comparable and they are great in rough.

I agree about the Skater, I noticed it looked like it ran chine-to-chine a bit.

The 42' Chief is for sale, maybe a test run is in order! :) I think a cut-down version of that hull would be bad-azz! I know the steps were designed by a naval engineer and I think they ventilated it later on. Pretty sure it can be built with/without steps. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoid=4074488

Good luck with the Donzi!!! I often wonder what my 36' would be like with all the new Epoxy and coring laminates!

Good luck in whatever you do, I've been watching you race since I was a litle kid! :)

Thanks for your input I will give it some though and talk to Richie Powers about it.
P.S. The 36 Apahe was the first real powerboat I ever built for friends, Bobby built it for me 20 years ago, I guess yours doesn't look anything like it anymore

Omar, I will say go for a test ride in the Donzi ZRC and you will be impressed with how it runs. If your looking to spend more money then the new Statement is the boat for you. Give the guys at the factory a call and they will set you up! Also I hate saying this but a 42 Fountain poker run boat will run with the best of them in the rough.

Thank you Tristar, Maybe Comanche3six should ask Bob about the real story...there is a thread on here where it is all explained. Then everyone may look at McManus' work a tad differently. It is a great thing to be able to resurect the old Apaches...but....:drink:

I would like to say THANK YOU to everyone involved in this great site! I'm brand new here and already love what i see! Fun history.

Hello Omar,
I have had the opportunity to ride in and drive quite a few different boats. One boat, in particular, that really impresses me is the 39 Phantom. Its another of the custom-made-to-order boats with lots of success on the race course. It has been around now for 6 or 7 years now and Will, the owner of Phantom, has learned a lot about the boat, since first designing it. I have ridden in the Donzi ZR and like the way it rides, but, don't like the high production of Donzi Inc. Its my opinion that some quality and details get lost in there somewhere.

I have been in a 47 and a 36 Apache at over 100mph. I can't deny the ride and the incredible feeling that it gave me. It always amazed me how little running surface was it the water at high speeds on a 47. It was only like 8 or 10 feet.

Have A Great Day
Big Andy

Ed,
Please don't insult my intelligence. I have been around this business for a quite a few years. I'm not talking about boats sitting at dealers lots. Raise the bar and sell your idea. I know that in the 80's, if you wanted a boat built by Apache, they had to like you or they wouldn't build you a boat. I also know that Pico laid-up the race boats. 90% of what I learned was not from reading forums. It was from being in Florida and from talking to people with the knowledge.

Not everyone wants a personal custom touch. A personal custom touch = $$$$$$, like it or not. Some people just want to get in a boat and be cool.

All this BS for expressing my OPINION about a top-deck of boat. What BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Omar
You and I share the same idea. That is exactly what I was envisioning. I, too, don't think that it makes sense for that kind of price.

Big Andy

Big Andy
It's not the 80's, it's 2009. And an Apache in 2009 will be expensive. If someone wants a cheap powerboat to just be cool in, well there are plenty out there.
Ed

Omar, Cig now offers a 44 sit down poker run version as well. The strength and honor boat is for sale, that was their old kilo boat. I'm not a fan of the deck on cold war, but I didnt stroke the check for it.

What kills me in this whole story and this thread I started is: I love Apache's and I spend all my time looking at other solutions!!!!
If I walked up to Mark he would sell me his designs but could not test a boat we are talking about apart from Cold War or Tsunami...now that to me is bad business judgement, why?
Because you built stuff for the people that pay you the most but you destroy your brand value and loyalty along the way because the guy that bought the boat for twice the price will never buy another from Apache because he is most likely disappointed from his boat in the same way we are today and the guys that would have bought more boats for a reasonable price can't afford it at twice the price. Net net, you are left with occasional refits which in my case was also a disappointment with Heritage. If I were Mark, I would put my money where my mouth is, I would build the boats I design, prove they work and sell them (that is what we did with Heritage, the first sit down canopy V bottom in 1991 and won two world titles with it). That is how every factory started and is alive today. I don't know why Apache would escape the "gravity" of market logic, they are after all heavy boats and should therefore obey the same market "gravity" logic unless the business model is about refitting the old hulls at the price of a new one....but that also has limits in time. The hulls will age and the boats aren't worth the hull's residual value so your audience of potential refits will shrink with time and not grow. Maybe the cycle has come for Apache to build new ones again? How many times can you recycle a hull before it is rotten to the bone? The time has come to get real again Apache, else you will be like the American Indians that once ruled this land, sitting in a reserve and slowly abandoned as your refit options will expire. Sorry to all for my frustration, but when it comes to Apache's I get really emotional.

Omar
I don't see Apache brand loyalty or value destroyed. I think Apache guys are probably the most loyal and used Apache powerboats among the highest priced. Even in a terrible market. I also think that Apache customer satisfaction is very high. I agree with Top Banana about today's buyer, they are really not interested in a offshore powerboat's rough water capability, they want high top speed numbers. That is why other manufacturers went to multiple steps, they give high top speed numbers. But, there are trade off's like in everything, and some of those trade off's deal with personal safety.
So, in the end we all have to decide what we want in a powerboat and how we will spend our money.
This has been an interesting thread. Good luck in your search.
Ed

Omar, was that the wide-body 36'???

You've been there and lived it and in my opinion you have the right!!! The rest of us just grew up watching and dreaming from the sidelines! :)

BTW, I spoke with Bobby the other day as he was pulling a boat to change some cutlass bearings and getting ready to head out of town. We were chatting about a project I'm working on! :ernaehrung004:

Thanks for contributing to the site, it's great to hear your input! :cool: