Who owns the Apache trademark and name?
 

Does anyone know who owns the trademark Apache and the name? Why don't see any new Apache's?

Do a search on the board, please.

Mark McManus

If my memory is correct there are two APACHE's they have similar but slightly different logos. Mark Mcmanus & Bobby Saccenti both have the name but they have thier own logo logos that are similar but are a bit different. ;) Jamie

Federal Court resolved the issue of two Apaches. There is only one. The trademark and logo(s) belong to McManus.

However, I have a whole bunch of free time this week. So, I'll keep an eye on this thread for some interesting reading.

Tom C

Yup, I agree with MegaByte!! McManus is the only man who has the ability and legality to build and sell any boat labled an Apache with the Indian head logo! Thad Allen lost his lawsuit and the "New" Apache is long gone...no molds, no boats, no nothing. Bobby Saccenti is a legend and will always be associated with Apache but holds no legal rights to the name.

Pantera has the molds for the Thad Allen boat. Nothing has ever been popped from them though...

Its a shame really, from what I have gathered they are very nice and it was a good design.

Its a shame we don-t see any new ones on the water, they had everything going for them.

They still are in the business of producing some serious hardware - there's pics here on OSO of a recent (late last year) Apache built named Cold War. You might like what you see.

Hmm, just my opinion but Cold War was/is hideous...

How many boats is McManus actually popping these days? It looks like they are mostly just retro fits and reconditions...

Its frustrating to see so many new brands outperform the master of high performance and real offshore rough sea hull, now this brand has become a vintage brand but it has so much incredible history that can be built on. Mc Manus should wake up to the this fact and build new ones up to todays standards without really getting away from their historic characteristics that made the success of Apache, look at Cigarette did. I had an Apache years ago and its frustrating to see that now the only good option left is the refit of older rigs. Don't read me wrong but, refitting is great it keeps the vintage around but the building of new competitive boats is what keeps the reputation going.

Just exactly which hulls do you think will out perform an Apache in rough seas? Which "new ones built up to todays standards " are stronger than an Apache? Could endure what an Apache can, and still hold together like an Apache?
I understand that today's twin step hulls are faster in smaller water, but that's about it.

Well just about any good hull now a days, take a cigarette or any good thottleman in 42 or larger. I ran so many of these poker runs with different types of hulls and never had problems against an Apache. I even ran an Apache twice but the outcome of the story is too sad to say so I will keep it in my coffers. In this age of power boating people don't go out in rough seas the way they did back when Apache built super heavy and "strong" boats. They go out in 3 maybe 4 feet seas anything beyond that point is deserted by any boats including Apache's, people don't want to get beat up so I never found an Apache to run against in rough water in the last 15 years unfortunately. In all cases, we don't see enough of them on the water so its too bad for Mc Manus and all of us that love them for what they are.

Any good hull nowadays will run rough water (6' plus) better than an Apache? Any good hull nowadays is built stronger than an Apache? You get beat up in 3' tp 4' seas in an Apache?
No.

I have never been in a 41 or 47 Apache but have seen the video and it's hard to beat that. Apache owners and others have stated that the Donzi 38 ZRC is a great big water boat and some of the other sit down race boats ride as well as the Apache. It has been said that a 41 even rides better than a 50 Nortech in big water witch has got me wanting to get in 1 this summer to see.

Here's where I see some of the Apache problem, they don't own the mold for the best boat they ever built. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't Saber own the mold for the 41 and it seems from what I have read the 42 is not better. The 47 is a big boat that most don't want because you need 3 big motors to hit 100 or 2 huge ones and a very light layup to do it.

I have never met Mark McManus but would have to think he is either very happy just building 1 or 2 boats a year and doing refit's and sevice work or is a total control freak and doesnt trust anyone to do the job right and that is why he isn't more like OL or Nortech, or he just doesn't have the coin to do it and won't borrow whats needed to be a bigger builder.

I must say that with the price of a lot of the 41's at or under 100k and with me living on the water it makes me want to buy one put some big power in put it out on the lift and wait til the wind is blowing and go out and flog big water.

McManus is your man if you want an authentic Apache with an APache HIN#.......I beg to differ with the gentleman that stated that most any new hull will run in the rough with an Apache.....Quick story 3 boats went out in the rough no names but one went to get a new cabin headliner one went toput in a new fridge and countertop and the Apache went to the bar for cocktails......

LOL, chit I take on 3-4's in the 28. Tons of fun. I would venture to say that it doesn't get really fun until atleast 3ft seas.

Well,only one way to find out, its not on this board, better out at sea.

Apache1
This board has some very well informed and experienced members. They don't always agree, but I have never met one that stated "just about any offshore powerboat" can run rough water better than an Apache. And "just about any offshore powerboat" is constructed stronger than an Apache. Those are Apache Powerboat's strongest points! Readily agreed to by members that don't even like Apache Powerboats. And on top of that you call yourself Apache1. Very confusing???!!!
If you feel the need to test your rough water skills against an Apache, may I recomend "Kemosabe"
If you can get by that Apache in rough seas(6' plus) then you are correct. Best of luck.
Ed

Comanche3six, Apache1 is informed and has experience with Apache's. He has won many races including championships in one very rare animal......also owns and has owned the best of the best and raced with the best..... Just so you know... You may continue...

Lowblue320
If Apache1 was Don Aronow, and we know that's not possible, I still dissagree with a couple of his Apache comments. Just so you know.
Ed

Ed, I understand were your comming from but that is his opinion. The only reason I wanted to let you know is, in your post before (you wrote) that this sight has many experienced people on here and I wanted to let you know that Apache1 is one of them. Maybe he would reviel his name. I will give you a hint...He built the rarest Apache, took it to the keys and won the championship right out of the box. BTW it was a big wave crusher that won many races ( He also has raced others). I would consider him an expert in this field especially when it comes to rough water and Apache. By saying that if he would like to test his rough water skills against kemosabee (which is a bad asz boat) is like telling Dave Scott that he doesn't know what it is to go fast in a boat. Not saying that I agree or disagree with what he or you are saying about Apache, but the man has got a resume......

carry on......

Lowblue320
That sounds great and I believe you about his impressive resume. My points about his Apache comments remain unchanged. For this simple reason........just about any offshore powerboat is not better than an Apache in rough water, and just about any offshore powerboat is not built as tough as an Apache.
Ed

AND WHO IS OUR MISTERY GUEST ???????

Thats what i would like to know !!!!!!!

In ruff sea,,there is NO open canopy V hull that could beat an apache,,,exept for my Aero-Tek ofcorse .LOL:rolleyes:

BINGO......Ed... Omar Daniel and Ritchie Powers won many races in that beast and cool to see them still run boats together till this day..

Welcome Omar!

Reading this thread took away minutes out of my life that I'll never get back.....I think I just threw up in my mouth a little:grinser010:

You should not drink to much.LOL:drink:

Hi Comanche3six!
You should work in the banking world, your due diligence is perfect! That is me!
Dont read me wrong, I love Apache's all my boats are called Apache's even some of my companies in souvenir to the most memorable experience of my life. My frustration is these hulls have a vintage aspect which could be enhanced with new technology and still be what they are. If Apache are really good rough water boats it is also due to V's, most hulls now are much flatter without counting steps, the beam is also narrow like making the 47 hull a real knife in rough water. I rebuilt Apache Heritage in 2003, ran it a few times but we had such trouble with the headers falling apart that I had to abandon the high performance scene with it and turned my passion to Cat's.
I am still looking for a boat which can perform in the rough like an Apache. The first time I ran one was in 1991, a 47 in seas of 10-12 foot and it ran thru like a train, that's the day I decided to build Apache Heritage. Until this day I never sat in anything like it but I am still hopeful I will find a "new" hull which can do what an Apache does. I haven't seen any new one or ran against them to know, all the Apache are refits.
My refit didn't work out too well.
My most recent V is an Outerlimits 42 which I sold last week, it ran fast, did well in the rough but not my style of ride, the balance wasn't fantastic at high speeds.
I have heard amazing stories on Donzi 38 ZRC's, it's a little short for the rough but was told it's amazingly surprising rid in the rough.

Omar welcome. Your frustration is shared by the builders and the old timers also.

A couple of things have happened in the last year that have made me reconsider the high performance world of today as compared to yesteryear.

Last year we, HORBA, put on the first open ocean race in over 20 years....a real blue water event, out of sight of land, from Miami to Bimini and back.....the entrants had no Apaches at all. Zero, no one entered the race.

Second item was a few weeks ago at the St Pete poker run, the wind had been blowing for days and the water was running pretty good....73 boats entered and 8 made the lunch stop. The others turned around at the bridge and went back to the docks. 3 deep Vees and the rest cats.

My opinion is that todays boats are capable of such high speeds, that that factor has become the only benchmark that is important to these guys.

The ability to handle a boat at speed in rough conditions doesn't equate anymore, they just want to say they have a fast boat that is capable of running, but they don't want to do the running.

As banana boat co, www.bananaboatco.com we could build the famous 41, as I have access to the Chief molds for the 42 footer. However, anyone that has been interested has always been concerned with the "How fast will it go?" rather than any of it's seakeeping abilities. Todays boaters are a different breed for sure.

As far as today's boats go....take a serious look at the Statement boat made in St Pete. Not only was it one of the boats that made the lunch stop, they were taking people out for rides durng lunch to show that rough water was no big deal...they had a boat and a skipper that could handle that. The boat does 128 MPH with full fuel load and 5 people on board.

Hi Charlie,
What you have done in Aronow's memory is great and for his son also. I agree 100% with what you said, I turned into Cat myself, an Apache at 110MPh on smooth water is no fun at all. I long for the days when it was rough and tough but the truth is the "girls and boys " and my wife want a smooth ride plus its somewhat safer for the promoters of poker runs, they have enough trouble finding insurance if you add rough conditions and accidents....well we would all rid bicycles to Key West and other fun places.
I haven't seen the 41 hull on your site, when is the last time you popped a boat out of that mold? Is it in good condition?

Omar

Thanks for your kind words, Don's memory is something that should be kept, especially by us that he did so much for.

The 41 on my site is actually the Chief that Bobby Saccenti made with steps and a new chine design. The molds are brand new and have only been used for two boats. I would love to see this boat up against the new Statement in some rough conditions.

We have a buyer for a 41 banana now, but has to sell his boat first. He is a rough water guy so hopefully this design can be utilized to it's full potential.

You could always look towards Pantera, they have a history of making rough water boats. Their 36 is quite nice, and they have those 41' "Apache" Thad Allen molds that are just begging to be used. Nevermind the great customer service and attention to detail from the family owned and run company.

Just a thought...

(I'm not trying to steer you away from Banana, I enjoy the products both companies make)

Hi Omar
Mark McManus owns the Apache trademark and has a 42' and a 50' Apache mold. He has done a padded keel on the last new 50' Apache "Cold War" but never any twin step hulls. Many (myself included) feel he builds the strongest, safest, finest rough water powerboats in the industry. Maybe a call to him and explain what you are looking to do in a V bottom will be the best idea. Anyway, I wish you the best in your search.
Check Out the video section!
http://www.apachepowerboats.com/
Ed

You do have a way to cut through the crap with laser-beam accuracy Charlie.

Make no mistake, it's not just offshore boating that has this problem. It's been a problem for many years in everyday recreational boating. I remember many a ride in rough water with smaller deep vee boats from the 70's that many 25 footers today would deliver broken ribs in. My dad's friend when I was a kid had a 31' Bertram, which wouldn't spill a drink going over some pretty snotty waters.

Once boat builders found out that some of the designs from the early days of glass boats were overkill, they learned to cut them down a bit. Now people talk about hole shots and all that. When I was a kid......:drink:

Who has the 41 mold, the one that build all the 41's in the 80's and 90's ? Saber ?

Well I have learned a good lesson with time, test and improve, its hard being the first guy to pop a boat from a mold. Mark does fantastic strong boats but I am sure you can build strong and light as well without getting too exotic on the bottom. You never know how many steps etc etc etc. Fountain builds nice bottoms but sorry for all fountain boaters, I still can't get used to the bow nose, its ugly and never got better. Maybe a 47 Apache cut down like the Heritage with light weight can be a good compromise so that you don't need the triple headache of running three powerplants.

Apache1
I understand your concern completely. This is a great brand with a lot of history in racing and pleasure boating. And, it is shame that nothing has been done to improve the design. I'm not talking about adding steps to the bottom either. I'm sorry, but, the deck on the new McManus designs is Ugly. It may work for the Euro Crowd but, it doesn't work for me at all. I'm with you on a cut-down version similar to Apache Heritage.

I would love to see a 41 cut-down in a sit-down configuration with the same lay-up schedule as some of the lighter weight boats like Predator or Starchaser or Magnum Mark's which was a work boat. The lighter weight lay-ups have stood the test of time, as well, run well in more variety of conditions, and can run the higher speeds with smaller power. There is room to improve. The question is...is there a willingness to do it or just rest on your laurels?

Battlecry
I disagree with your statement. You call the deck on the new McManus 50 ugly. And to you it may be, so you would not choose that deck design. You feel the need to insult another man's design tastes. Ok, you have accomplished that. I am sure you are fully aware that Mark McManus could build you any design deck that pleases you? Including, the original Apache design.
You want a lighter weight layup (but not to the point of sacrificing strength and safety) in a sit down configuration. I'm assuming with some new stringer and transom composites. Readily accomplished.
Your last comment intrigues me. Are you saying that you have talked to Mark McManus and he did not have a willingness to build you this 41 sit down Apache you desire? He was preoccupied with resting on his laurels?
Ed

Hi Omar

Welcome to the board and I am very aware of all your accomplishments...But lets just agree to disagree until the day comes we can meet on the open Seas.:ernaehrung004::ernaehrung004: With that being said I will take a rain check on your offer to run against you until we can have a formidble course maybe to Bimini and back next year???????