that would be tom to bobs left,thanks scott.

Mark, I didnt say who built the first boat, I said who I thought(and I may be wrong)was in charge of the first 41 mold for Don.

Although your criptic messages might be fun, sometimes JUST SAY WHAT YOU MEAN, know what I mean.

don't go away :p ..... stay tuned!!!!!!;)

Its getting windy in here:D

WarParty,

Spinakers is south of 188th st. about 10 mins drive. They do have space left and there are quite a few performance boats. The word on the street is there will be many more coming!

SGRADY,

We will not be on the Nov key west run, but will be going on the Spring Key west run in March. Had a great time last year.
We are down on the boat alot. Usually fly down on Friday evening and home on Sunday evening or monday
early A.M. Hope to hook up with you.

Little Tommy :cool:

are you saying ..............................

Click on link in post # 2 :eek:

ZOOMNFUN, I have intentionally stayed out of this saga because lets face it I'm burned out on it. If they make it great, if they don't sorry about their bad luck. I wish them well and time will tell. I wont go into the history because it has been covered more than the OJ trial was. Refer back to the Apache what's in a name thread as it has lots of good reading. I was going through it today. Anyway to respond to an earlier post concerning the "Original Mold". These are the facts that I know to be true. I was a snot nosed punk when I was there during that era but stood in corners and kept my mouth shut and ears open sometimes too good. Let me tell you that was when it was all for real. Enough rambling this pretty much explains how the entire chain of events began to transpire.

No disrespect towards Mark McManus, he is undoubtedly one of the finest project coordinator's in the industry today and also would kill himself with a screwdriver, but for the record Don designed any of his plugs, hull extensions, and/or boats, and was very good indeed. That much we can agree on I'm sure, can we not? Don had qualified carpenters, such as the Chapman's, on staff who followed his instructions to the tee, making his visions a reality.

As far as who did the actual tooling of the 41' "No Name Mold", that gentleman is Mr. Servillio Pico, now building boats for Midnight Express of Miami.

McManus was indeed Don's General Manager of USA Racing Team, Inc., fulfilling management duty's on a daily basis before becoming employed by Kramer, and all of this took place after the first few originals were built I might add.

The 41' "No Name Mold" was only used to pull one part from, a hull to be split into two parts and redesigned (by Don), that became The U.S.A. Cats purchased by the Government for drug interdiction patrol boats more commonly referred to as Blue Thunder Interceptor Boats. Later, Don designed and tooled a new race deck mold to fit the 41' so he would have a complete set of molds to either build boats from, when his non compete clause with Cigarette forbidding Don to build any new V-bottoms, expired or more true to form sell it or use it as bargaining tool. Don wasn't prejudice at all, everyone's money was green and he could spend it just like all the rest.

Soooooo, along comes Bobby S. and what do you know the next thing that happens, "Warpath" was born coming from a stretched 37½ ft Cigarette. I believe it was originally to be named The B & B Special but need to check with Bobby S. to be sure, are there any questions? If so PM me with them because I wont get involved with the Apache Saga at this time. If you wanna know the non-fiction overview there it is. If you want the history refer to the other threads, it's there, sometimes diluted but like cream the truth always rises to the top. Just look for the stuff that repeats the most from more than one member.

Respectfully, tactfully, and completely diplomatic.
"The Illustrious One"
Sean Stinson

Also Zoom I didn't single you out, bro; you were the one that asked the question. McManus does deserve credit for alot of the 41's and 47's. I also explained that in another thread somewhere.

Oh hell I can't resist this one....Bobby, Eric, Jack, and TNT Eddie this one is for you guys.....

Professor Stinson gives brief history overview.

Anyway I think it was later that asked the question.....And this only concerns Apache, not what came from where, and who sold what to them for HOW MUCH, bull****!

The first mold was the 41 are we all in agreement?
Good

Then came the 47 which was a stretched 41 agreed? Cool

From that tooling was made, still with me?
OK

Company Splits into 2 seperate but aligned Apache Entity's (SP?) still continuing to race and do boat shows together. Gentlemans agreement between them had Bobby doing under 40' and The Kramer Hollywood shop doing over 40' and that is where McManus was involved in his capacity as Pres/GM/Chief cook & Bottle washer whatever who cares?
OK stay with me here!

Benny gets pinched....Gov't now controls Apache Hollywood, where they make McManus custodian in charge or whatever upper college level word they have for it now, not Apache Bobby. Benny is still pulling the strings of Apache Hollywood to some degree. Got it? Good

Bobby talks to Benny and a deal is made to pull a shortened part from the 41 hull mold originally supposed to be 35' in length to compete with 35 Cigs etc. Well somebody read the tape measure wrong during the damming process and the 36 was born from which tooling was made for Apache Bobby.
Any questions so far...?
OK

The gentlemans agreement was broken when Apache Hollywood built 38/40 model of the 41 for a car racer. I am leaving all the particulars out concerning the finger pointing and mf'ing, he said, she said BS!!!

And that my friend was when all bets were off and the proverbial **** hit the fan.

Did everyone stay awake for today's lessons?
Grreeaatt

I know there are alot of other details, points, manuever's, and other things that can add to it but the above is basically everything that went on to lead up to todays "'Soap Opera Drama' 'The Apache Wars'" that rivals even "Dallas" with JR Ewing.

I kind of went out into left field for a while but to answer the original question the 36, 41, & 47 all came from the 41. Whether it was stretched or dammed to make that model.



Sean


__________________
"Don't Tease The Cat

YO Sean
 

great saga, I merely started this thread when I stumbled on someone shooting himself in the foot or head in Boat design.net. I think it reflects the true character of the parties to the discussion at that time. Lets wait to see the outcome.:fish: :fish:

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You..
 

Mr. Stinson, thank you for post 233, 234 and 235. A fine job of putting the major events ( facts !! ) on the table, without the "spin".;) Will someone more computer savy than I put these three posts together in a link that can be referenced for the poor soul who asks the "36/41/47" question ? Please.

Now Sean, tell me about the 33' :D :D AHHHHHH!!!!!!

JD

Jim ,

You need a rocken trailer for that bad boy ????

Thanks Jack, no more argument on who made the big ones popular;)

Already Bit By Mr. Tweedy
 

You STILL don't build all welded aluminum do ya ? This is my salt water boat, but this might be my last MYCO, the prices are getting way outa line :rolleyes:

Go to the principals office......you missed the moral of the story. I gave McManus his due but if Bobby would've never schlepped down the street to buy the mold in the first place, your whole era of Apache would have never been. Its kind of like if your old man would've pulled out instead of......get it now!!!!

Sean

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: He just doesnt get it........

DAMN! Sean, you said you weren't going to get involved. I wish all this sh!t would end and every one could just ENJOY what they got! Who cares who did what, I know both gentlemen in question here and am looking forward to seeing them at the Lauderdale show. Thank GOD they did what they did or I wouldn't have what I've got, which is one DAMN FINE OFFSHORE BOAT. Enough with all the soap opera BS, let's talk about how much FUN they are!
Robert

There seems to be a lot of RBE going around here....."Resin bucket envy"......better notify the CDC before this breaks out into a full fledged epidemic!!!:D

I couldn't take it anymore bro.....But I agree with you.....STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!! How about time we went to Sportmans Paradise bro? Who said you couldn't take these things in the backwaters? :eek: :D :cool:

Where are you staying fo Lauderdale? The Marriott!!

My only point is I love that every one just forgets the guy was involved in the history. And yes I believe he was involved in the cool ones that alot of people love.

I have dealt with him personally, and he was way more of a gentleman to me than some people I thought were straight up. The ones that I thought were the heros,fair and honorable turned out to be thieves.

Thank you Sean for the whole story, what I was looking for in the first place.

Sean
With a friend up in Boca.

I apologize for earlier post, in one statement it should have read; Thank GOD they did what they did or WE wouldn't have what we have today, which is one DAMN FINE OFFSHORE BOAT.

I just get so sick and tired of the same old BS every time an APACHE thread gets started, it turns into this. If I knew how to work the digital camera I would give ya'll some pics of the redo on TONTO, it is turning out sweet.

Robert

As a close observer, commentator, and chronicler of the Apache glory days.......

If I had to credit people by name regarding the "legendary" Apache hull. I would make the following points.

1. The "legend" boat was actually the 41..... the smaller and larger hulls never did anything remotely resembling "legendary" feats.

2. The PRIMARY characters in terms of making the hull famous and competitive were Ben Kramer and Bobby Saccenti...... for a variety of reasons. There were obviously guys back in the shop doing a variety of things..... Rigging, assembly, molding, fabricating, upholstery...etc...but they didn't get much attention and were , frankly, interchangeable, but talented contributers.

3. If I HAD to pick a #3 name in the "Apache legend" equation...it would be Keith Eickhert. If I had to pick a fourth...... Jack Kramer. If I had to pick a fifth....... Don Aronow, whose name appeared on the hulls as "designer"....... although I don't believe that Don ever "designed" anything himself. The final "front line" personality would have to be James Caan.

4. Many other people including my friend, Bret May, were involved in the Apache Team...... but none of them can claim IMHO any rights to being a "creator" of the boat or the name.

It seems that anybody who ever made a component of the boat or hull is now claiming authorship, and that's a shame. But, in an odd way, given the colorful, wheeler-dealer history of the marque....it's probably an inevitable phenomenon.

T2x........ sick of this tug of warpaint

T2x

I agree, "sick of this tug of warpaint"

Robert

Fun, Fun, Fun
 

Hey Robert , ya having "fun" sanding on those tabs and drives ? he he he :D :D

We're gonna try to slip up to Ft Lauderdale on Friday evening the 31st to see ya for a drink before heading for Tavernier ( notice I said "A" drink, ya right:drool: ) or are ya gonna blow us off for " Boca " ? ;)


Sean, I'm serious about the 33's info, anything ??

Tug? Actually just a diehard Bobby Saccenti fan and supporter:cool:

Re: Fun, Fun, Fun
 

1 drink with Robert...ok, you just keep telling yourself that!!!:D :cool:

This will probably start some more **** but the 33 was also a Bobby S boat......makes a great fishing boat but may have left a little bit to be desired for all out performance. I will send you a complete rundown on it sometime later today.

T2x as always you are now the father and wise man of the sport. I am sorry for stirring up the **** today but felt it necessary to enlighten some that may have been out of the loop. My lessons are done for now hopefully not to be used again.

Too Old you too I have the utmost respect for and are truly another gentleman in this sport. I would say you're todays grandfather but can't because you and I both know that you're really only 35 years old.....The Too Old thing is just a great cover bro....oops, was a great cover.

I hope this may open the door for the "Legends" of Apache to maybe post any facts they wish without fear of instilling another Cowboy & Indian scenario to be played out.

Tonto I doubt if I will be there for the show but you never can tell. Hope to see you soon bro.

Zoomnfun as I stated earlier I wasn't singling you out but you asked the question which opened the door I could use to try and explain some of it correctly and truthfully. Your thank you deserves a you're welcome, sir.

Ok I need to get back to concentrating on what I need to which is Jaguar Marine at the moment. We have lots of great stuff in the works and I will keep you posted.

Sean :cool: :cool:

Re: Re: Fun, Fun, Fun
 

Oh Yeah?...... you forgot two things

1. I may be older than Fred.

2. Brownie knows more than either of us.

T2x........... Contemplating a trip to Viagra Falls

Little ones:rolleyes: WTF are you rolling in Windycity?

Stinson, I know you can rig one hell of a boat, but I have a whole new respect for you being able to type in the middle of the night:o :D :D .(post 233,234,235)

Ok Ok Ok...easy with the compliments, Sean is hard enough to live with as it is, but it gets a lot harder when his ego is so big!!!! LOL. Who knew that his plethera of useless knowledge would come in handy. Just Kidding.

Hey Tonto it's good to see you back on the board. I missed you!!!!Love you!!!!

Terra

Stinson,T2x,Too Old......as always, great to hear from you guys ! as the famous line goes...Just the FACTS !

We have to have pics of TONTO being redone !!!!!!
Point & Shoot Robert !!!!! just Point & Shoot !!!

:D :D :D

For the record.....

the quote "tug of warpaint"..... is a PLAY ON WORDS.... and has nothing to do with anything submitted by OSO member,Warpaint, herein.

T2x......esq.

Re: Re: Re: Fun, Fun, Fun
 

Older :eek: I thought you were only 30 bro....aging process has treated you well my friend. :p :D

How could I leave out the infamous BROWNIE, it's that A.D.D. whatever thing some guy who wanted to make money off of created.

Hey the little blue pills will raise to the status of a "God" albeit of the bedroom but still god status. :D :D

Bro it's really the only time I can have peace and serenity these days, no kids, no company, at times just Terra and myself, and others just me. If you saw how many times a reworded that first post you might change your mind though.;) :cool:

Sean

Tom Evans. “Swamp”. One of the best rigger/technicians in the business. Also one of the most unsung hero’s and foundation blocks of everything Apache.

Seems we’re getting off track here though and revisiting history already covered in “Apache what’s in a name”. That was then…………..I think the subject is now. I think the subject is ethics and morals of the now.

I’m generally the quiet one, doing more listening and watching than talking. For those that don’t know me……..I grew up on the water building boats. Started tending a steam box at a family boat yard when I was 8. I’m 45 now. I haven’t seen everything but, I’ve seen my share and I am strictly black and white. I’ve been involved with Bob personally, and with Apache in one way or another since 1985, and as Bob’s business partner since early 1999 when we put Apache and Cherokee under one roof. In my 18 years with Bob, I’ve seen the scum of the earth continually zero in on him (why I’ve always made a point to stay in the bilge where I’m happiest) and the Apache name. But never the likes of this from three parasites trying to promote a new product. I’ve never seen such a disgusting lack of professionalism, or display of ignorance, incompetence and ineptitude as I am watching unfold here. A CEO is as responsible for it’s employees actions as he or she is for their own actions. I know quite a few wealthy people. Not all of them know the industry they are in either but, almost all are smart enough to surround themselves with smart people to fill those shortcomings. The key words being almost and smart. I wonder what will happen when the 2.3m horse hits the ground and certain employees have to find another job. And I don’t care how much a person has, 2.3m is a hell of a hit. What is so hard in just shutting up and building boats?

Money is great, it makes the world go round without a doubt. Some have more than others, and some need more than others. I built boats because I love creating, I love speed, I love the water, and it was something I couldn’t wait to get started on every morning. Just so happens, I made a decent living doing what I love to do. I don’t know too many people that can say that honestly. My attitude has always been; “If the product I create is no good, I’m personally no good”. I’ve always taken great pride in my work and business, often putting both in front of my family and it brings tears to my eyes to see what’s becoming of something that I, along with many others took so much pride in helping to create.

To ALL Loyal Apache owners and supporters. I sincerely apology for all the BS and controversy that once again surrounds the name you all have obviously taken the same pride in through your ownership, support, promotion and financial commitment. You are the best. Thank you.

Bob and I will keep everyone informed of our future plans. Whatever we decide, one thing is for sure. It won’t be Apache. This circus will not happen again. Bob and I are as tired of this crap as you all are.

Hope to catch up with some OSO’ers and tribe members while your in town for the Boat Shows. Bob and I will be around.

Best regards,
Eric Froberg

This is the order of departure:
Jack Leiske: WAS NOT fired. Looking back, he seems pretty smart.
Sean Stinson: WAS NOT fired. As a relative newlywed and a kid on the way he didn’t need it.
Eric Froberg: For another place and time.
Bob Saccenti: Had enough of the BS.
And someone who had been around quite a while and is one hell of a rigger, also had enough; Apache Eddie/Eddie Amoedo: Now T-N-T Eddie. And I wish him all the luck in the world.
THE END.
THE TEE-PEE IS NOW EMPTY.

T2x, thank you;)

Eric, thank you!!I appreciate the email you sent me!!!

Great post Eric.....I can attest to the tears portion of his post in talking with him on the phone he was pretty bummed over the whole ordeal as is everyone else I'm sure.

I didn't mean to get off track but put everything in perspective hoping it would stay focused. Your post will keep it going in that direction.

Take care buddy and talk to you soon,
Sean

great post eric

nuff said

Wicked,,

Nope no aluminum maybe later on down the road

we are still very competitive in steeland are working on a new way to compete with alluminum
(more to come later )

What Fred said !!!
Those two could call them "Weasel powerboats" And people would still line up to by them