How about a BAD CUSTOMER section ?
 

In lue of the post that was closed last night by a customer that did not want to pay his bill so he decided to come on OSO and prove himself wrong, why don't we have a section for all the builder/riggers that want to out bad customers.

Great idea, btw hope it didn't seem like I was blaming you in that thread. Your post seemed like you were the second side of the story.

Not at all, we all hate bad business and it should be outed but that was not the case here. As everybody that knows Dave knows he is not one to come on and say much so as somebody that respects him and the work that he does I could not just sit back and let the OP continue his tale of deception. I did talk to Dave and was glad he did come on last night and set the record straight. It was BS the way the OP skirted the truth and then had the balls to call Dave a liar... bet he would not say it to his face!!!

I think it was Performance Marine in Lake George that had a "Dead Beat" section on their web site-where they posted the names of people who stiffed them. I think a Dead Beat section on OSO is fair game!

the funny thing about that thread was the way the op claimed he got screwed out of 400 bucks.he kind of made himself look bad.

Especially over just 400 dollars.Good Idea! I think there should be a section for bad customers ..Maybe some of them would then figure out ,the world does not owe them squat

Unless I am mistaken, the BEWARE section that B41 posted this thread in will support bad customer complaints also.

define a bad customer,,,

Is a bad customer someone that hires a business to do a job and when the business fails to deliver what they promised (budget,,time,,quality)and the customer is now not happy is that when he becomes a "bad customer"?,,,,

I am just asking,,my question has nothing to do with any threads or any other bs,,,just asking..

We want our own for quick reference..... never know when a zombie is walking through the door.

Somebody that brings you work, you do said work and they don't want to pay. Somebody that brings you work, tells you how to do the work and when it does not work does not want pay. Demanding customers are not aways bad customers if they are spending enough money but slow pay customers are bad because when they finally pay you they think that moves them back to the front of the line...NOT. This a just a start.

a zombie,ok brian,no more coffee for you today. LOL

I hear what you are saying Brian but,,
a lot of times a customer gets a bad rap because he complaints,,,most of the time customers only complaint because they did not get what they paid for,,,most people want to pay for the service and move on,,,then when that service fails and they complaint the 1st time the business might try to work with him,,when they the costumer complaint a 2nd or 3rd time,,now he is a difficult costumer,,just because someone might be a difficult costumer it does not give the business the right not to deliver what they promised...

a smart business would get 1/2 or 1/3 upfront to cover some of the cost ,,and do you have costumers that come into you shop and ask you to do work for them and then when the work is done they are happy with the work but don not want to pay for the service??really??

Absolutely, I found it all the time working on diesel trucks and why I don't work on them anymore. "Here fix my truck" then they want to negotiate price. Some people's mentality is absurd, like the other thread when the truth came out. Or the people who want what they want and want it right now. Then ***** because something wasn't packaged as pretty as they would like. I sold an intake and got beat for the money because of a 3/8 npt hole that someone added, the threads weren't the best I'd seen but they sealed. It's npt has to be really bad to not seal! And a gimble 6 months later the guy wants a full refund because his mechanic was incapable of disassembling it. Well it was sold as a good used gimble that at most needed a bearing and boot. Why anyone would rebuild a gimbal is beyond me?? A new one costs less than the parts to repair never mind labor!

Part of the problem is that a lot of shops have an open work order and take advantage of it. After a couple weeks or months go by, the job is finished, and the owner gets the final bill, which is usually higher than the quoted price. Now the problems will start.

If you own a shop and do not want problems at the end of a job, it's simple:

Before the work is started, the customer knows he will be paid up every Friday or the work on his stuff is discontinued.

Friday afternoon all of the work performed during the week for said customer is tallied up including all parts, materials, labor, etc...

Customer is called and informed of his bill for the week, credit card is given, and customer is squared up for the week.

Simple and saves a lot of BS but most shops don't like this because its hard adding hours to a bill on a weekly basis, as opposed to an open work order or 3 months.......

Who would be the 1st on the list? :)

I agree. There has to be some accountability to make accusations against a business and proven to be less than accurate. Damaging an individuals name is one thing, but a business is another.

What ever happened to developing and MAINTAINING a SCHEDULE? I deal with VERY demanding clients, and when we set a schedule for a project it is clearly defined that a lack of response or action on their part may delay the schedule & add cost to the project. At that point, they own the delay & the cost of getting "back on schedule." While I'm not an engine builder or boat builder, most projects that I run are $1-$25 million. Many of those projects are food or medical projects that have no room for delays. The clients that I deal with understand "cause & effect" as in the lack of response from said client may "cause" delays that require extra forces or shifts, and the effect will be increased cost to complete the project on time. I don't see why the same methods can't be utilized in engine building or boat building. As in, "Mr Customer, this is our schedule. This schedule is BOTH of our responsibilities to maintain. If I need your approval to proceed, you have XX hours to respond before I am forced to move to the next project in line. If you choose not to respond, and your work has to be rescheduled, then we will do so but please be advised that the initial schedule is null & void due to your prior lack of response."

This section looks like it works fine to me. Yeah hey zombies, they're everywhere! LOL!

I am not sure the truth came out,,,the op said his side of the story,,,then a couple of days later the business owner replyed with his side,,,so that makes it the truth??I do not know,,,guess maybe it does...

Truth is a matter of opinion. People are free to read the thread and make their own decisions based on what was posted by both parties.

IMO, creating a "bad customer" section is a bad idea and completely unprofessional.

In all practicality, I don't see a business googling potential customers names.
Unfortunately another builders name was hinted at in that closed thread because speculation and beating around the bush was allowed. I'd be pissed if I where TC. People search business names for reviews. Even posts that are incorrect, they are still there and allow for some second guessing

truth is a matter of opinion??

I agree 100%

I am sure there are plenty of customers that some business do not like to deal with and other business love them,,,,

just as I am sure some costumers do not like certain business while other customers can not say enough good things about,,,

all you could do is deal with it case by case and move on I guess..

NONE of us know the FACTS unless we were there and saw it with our own eyes.

EITHER side of that story could be true

Brian, You are losing customers fast with your posts on here.......

Dave W is a great engine builder, but he is not perfect. There are many people with complaints about him. That's normal in business.

THERES NOTHING WRONG with someone warning fellow OSO members to protect themselves from a builder. Saber did not BASH anyone.
The only thing that went wrong on OSO is that the users are blowing the thread out of proportion. Saber has brought up a good point that us customers need to protect ourselves from shops that could hold our valuables hostage for possible incorrect charges. That's what estimates and signatures are for. Shame on Dave W for being too overbooked and lazy to use this technique.

Just to clarify, I don't believe Saber or myself are saying that nobody should go to Dave W, just that you are protected and that you have clear communication when you are dealing with him.

To clarify......its a matter of opinion when you are not there and only read about what happened from different perspectives.

It's the way business should be conducted...it's called communication.

Griff I meant to add your quote to this post that a bad customer section was bad business. I like the Idea
So you think it's alright for a customer that had a bad experience at a shop to come on here and bad mouth them. And they do ....But the business shouldn't have a right to know who the deadbeats are.
I'm trying to get the fairness in that. People can draw their own conclusion as to what they THINK happened after reading the thread.If the Deadbeat has a comment or excuse he has the right to post There are a lot of people in this broke country trying to get over on who they can,every chance they get .Do you think sabre should have just been able to pick up his motors, no charge.......NOT

Really?? I am one of Brian's customers and he is one of the best in the business!! And I applaud him for sticking up for his well known competitors on the west side of the state!! He could of said bring your engines to me. Instead he decided to help out a competitor that he knows does good work and has a very good reputation. That is a great businessman! I live in VA now and when I build my next engine I will load it in my truck and drive back to MI to have Brian tune it on his dyno.

I believe the Truth lies somewhere in the middle. when ever the stories are 180 degrees apart something usually smells!! BUT I have been on the front lines of customer satisfaction my entire career, and I found that from the business side you NEVER yell at any customer, I have had "bad customers" that I would walk away from and tell them that we will work the situation out when they are ready to talk like and adult. 95% of the time an equitable solution was found and those customers actually became my most loyal and trusting clients. the other 5% I would give them what they wanted and more just to show them how foolish they looked and kindly/respectfully asked them to find another vendor. Most of them returned again with a new respect for my team. Moral NEVER yell at a customer. Only my opinion. Respectfully....

I dont think sabre want it for free,,,,I think he was asking if $400.00 was fair...

I think he should have paid what he oked and signed on the repair order,,,unless he gave him a open check book authorization..

I do not know either one and I was not there so only they know what was oked..

I agree, never yell at a customer ...But the shop owner did say it was the first time he had run anyone off. Would you have been happy with a customer yelling at your relatives ..How about a customer demanding to an employee to "give me my stuff" with no offer of pay .I think you can give a business owner, or a customer for that matter one pass. Two.. maybe ,maybe not. Anyone can have a bad day..If it starts to be the trend then it is what it is.I've been on both sides of this more than once and the older I get the more "tempered" I have become .Makes a better point to just walk away.....IMO

If you read sabres first post he DID state he was going to collect the parts through the winter .Easier to pay for is what he said .That doesn't make a boat shop owner stand at attention. Just sounds like another cheap ass day dreaming

400 is fair in my book .The time spent on teardown isn't just the time of pulling the parts .Starts when tools start coming out and ends when tools are wiped down and put up. Engine (didn't want to say motor" doesn't just jump off floor onto engine stand either.
Hell KID would have lightened him up for 2000 which is totally out of line

That would be kinda neat but we have customers you can never satisfy but they always come back. Question is do you want some of them back or post them on here etc.etc I had a guy who is on here that painted his outdrives with Berliner like crap and wanted us to fix and paint them. He welded on some nose cone contraption that looked like a blind man did it but hey his son is the best welder in the world. Everyday he came by telling me how to do it and don't paint the studs etc,etc, originally he wanted to just paint them but the work was so bad I wouldn't so we started making nice. Low and behold the next day here he is again. I ordered the imron and was a day away from etch prime and prep and here he is again wanting the paint to stick and not peel but not wanting us to tear the gimbles down and other stuff. Finally just blew up and sent him down the road and charged him 250 for a 1100 of work so far. I just learn my lesson and moved on. The thing I'm trying to say is eventually they will forget about you or need you again and I just charge accordingly or do you post them on here and forever more they run your name in the ground. Some of them you want to beat with a crowbar and some you just take the bull crap and move on! It sucks and I've had to have my tongue glued and stitched a few times back on.

There has been a lot of typing going on here and still no answers to my 3 very straight forward questions:


If the short blocks where or where not out of his boat- how does that affect the amount of time needed to disassemble and assess?

When the blocks where accepted was there a time frame discussed?

Saber28 stated he called at one point and told the "next week". Do you confirm or deny this?

So...time to speculate.

No I don't think the time frame to disassemble and asses a short block is affected by if the motors where out of a customers boat or if conjured up by Gypsy magic. Anyone disagree??

I would guess that a time frame was discussed and I am confident that the customer was not told the blocks might be looked at in the next three or four months. There are shops where holding a customer's property hostage has become common practice. This is sometimes intentional and is sometimes caused by mismanagement of resources. Either way- Shame on them.

Finally yes I do believe that after an unreasonable time waiting, Saber called and was told "next week". I don't believe the blocks were ready that next week. You can push some customers farther than others.

Saber asked "should I pay". Maybe the question should have been "Should I pay full price after my property was held hostage?"

Each party involved here is trying to portray themselves as the victim. Looks like just like in real life they both were wrong and right.

No one has the right to hold someone's property hostage just to get a job.

The customer needs to understand that yelling at and intimidating an employee or owner is unacceptable. Any human being that's worth anything will defend themselves, their employees, and especially their family when attacked either physically or verbally. Any chance for an amicable solution has now gone out the window.

The only good that can come out of these two threads now is the rest of us can learn from others mistakes.

If you take on a job- be honest upfront about the time and cost involved.

No matter how upset you get over a situation understand that losing your self control is only going to make it worse.

In this arena (Forum) it is a fine balancing act how you treat a (special Needs customer) I'm glad I have retired from the circus! I'm done with this horse beat him to death.... Time to check the classifieds for a big Skater!!

I love how people start a chit stirring thread and you don't hear from him anymore lol...

i could be wrong but didnt this thread get removed last night .its over lets move on people
i suggest the op shut this one down .talk about beating a dead horse

MERRY CHRISTMAS oh thats right we can't sat that anymore either . HAPPY HOLIDAYS

Saber never mentioned the business but simply asked if the charge was fair.. why he got so beat up does not make sense to me.
I`m not surprised he`s not chiming in anymore.

So those of us who have to spend months or years saving money for upgrades, or buy our parts as we can afford them, should just keep our mouths shut and get our work done when the builder feels like it or when the high rollers stuff is taken care of? Pretty arrogant attitude IMO. As long as a price is negotiated and the customer pays his stuff should get done in a timely fashion.

You seem to think that you know what I think when in reality you have no idea.

I said it was unprofessional. I never said anything remotely like what you are implying.