What do you Lip-Ship followers think of the Red Top Gun that JT rigged with big Cobra power! How would you compare a JT rigged boat to one that Philly has customized?

Yea, I'll admit it, I'm a happy Lip-Ship customer but it seems you're missing the point here. You're comparing this boat to others on the market. There is no other boat on the market that you can compare this boat too. This is basically a new/flat bottom. Gone through inside and out by someone that I'd rather have over see my new cigarette build than cigarette themselves. You can't compare it to a boat that has been beat up for past 8 years or a half azz interior job or paint job done on it. All work is by the best in the industry.

You ask is this boat worth more than another built by another company...I'll ask, show me another late model flat bottom that has just been gone through inside and out from stern to bow by someone of equal reputation, then we can compare prices. Fact is, this is a one of a kind boat.


By the way, I think the red TS JT built is SIIIIIICK! I don't know what or why you'd want to compare it to a Lip-Ship boat. And since JT and Phil are long time friends and directly next to each other and have collaborated on many a project, I don't know how you would "compare" boats.

[QUOTE=Brad;2789994].

Is the Lip Ship model worth significantly more than another cig built by the same company?
QUOTE]

If you want the best of the best, it is.

Tank I believe you are also missing my point.
Boats depreciated, this is 9-10 year old hull. I would have a hard time paying 67% of what it cost originally from Lip-Ship originally in the economy we are in today? I would think a buyer that needs financing is going to have a tough time.

Tank that is not what I wrote. I wrote is a Lip-Ship really worth more than a non Lip-Ship cig.

[QUOTE=pm203;2790033]Why do you say that? Do you think Lip-Ship models are built differrent at Cig? If I wanted the best I would ahve JT rig it!

[QUOTE=Brad;2790049]In fact, some are. The difference being Phil, an expert, who is on site during the build ,makes sure things are done to his standards. If you only knew...................

most of phils customers boat in fl in the winter, and the location, service, and quality is the best - enough said

So the easy answer is ... would you pay 149k for Phils 2000 or Buy Wild's boat for 159k.. I am not comparing boats, only asking which boat you would want for the same money !!

Wilds, Wilds, Wilds

I don't have a bias in either direction, and have only bought parts from Phil on occasion, but a quick look thru the classifieds here and other places for 99 or 00 Guns in "excellent" shape I see a low of about $100K up to $199K. There aren't that many for sale either. Of course, all of these are out of my range, but I do keep an eye on Cigs for sale as much as the next guy.

My point is some have said that Phil's boat is $50-$75K too high?? Double the value? These apparently are the same people that think 99.9% of every boat listed is too high and they are looking only for that distressed "steal" on a boat.

IMHO Phil's boat may be $25K higher than the norm, but I would seriously go down and look at it hard before I would pass on it if I were in the market, because I think it probably IS worth more than a non-Lip Ship.

And does anyone else know of an 80mph Gun with 500's that doesn't have a "F2" on the side?

It's a good question, and is completely answered on an individual basis.

Phil's shop & market identity in some ways could be compared to exotic car tuners that work directly with the factory. He takes it a step further on every project he takes on, to give his boats that extra edge. Whether it's a different pattern for the gauge cluster, a new seat design, a different cabin layout, or just a different material used on the interior parts, it's usually something new or unique, and not found on "every other boat". It clearly has been successful for him, or this question wouldn't come up so often.

Can an owner, or dealer, have Cigarette do whatever their mind can create? Absolutely. Usually however, they know what they like when they see it, not if they have to create it themselves. Painters & boat builders do more "copies" of other designs that their clients have seen, over new ideas. He also checks on your new boat at the factory constantly throughout the build since he's so close. If something isn't right, or needs a change, it can be done right away rather than when the owner finds out at delivery. Not all owners have the time, or location to check on their projects. It's the job of the dealer to keep the job going as planned.

He's always, I mean ALWAYS, is there for his customers, and his small crew of employees worked for Cigarette at different points of the past. They know everything about the construction of any Cigarette dating back decades, so there's no job they can't take on with your boat.

He's been there a LONG time....which is very important to me. He only deals with Cigarettes, and doesn't just drop the line, or pick up others when the market changes. He's completely interested in doing custom stuff to old or new boats, rather than just pushing you into what "everyone else is doing". He's literally "all about" Cigarette, and it's his true passion. It shows.

He won't sell a used or new boat without it being to his standard, and DEFINITELY not something that could come back to haunt him by misrepresenting the product. I"m sure there are FEW exceptions.

All of this is why I think it's worth it to pay more for a boat HE's selling or has always serviced, over one that "seems" to be similar, but less money. I do not apply this to boats he's built, but have had various owners and service history since.

I think Wild's boat was bought from and built by Phil (and the first owner) and I know T-N-T has done all the service on it before he bought it and the first owner even sent it to Lake X to be dialed in when it was new......so that being said I would go for the TS.

Tres Martin rigged it, but yes, TNT did most of the work for Alexander. The boat is definatley priced right...I just think the no paint and history is holding it back from selling. Great boat though as I said...we ran against Alexander a lot when we had our F-2 T/S.

[QUOTE=pm203;2790033]
Right On!!!:ernaehrung004:

If you were logical , I think you would probably lean towards Wild's boat since it is newer and a twin-step. However, buying a Cig is not a logical decision, it's an emotional decision. And you could talk yourself into going either way. I know that I could. However, my decision would have to be the 2000. It has gorgeous paint, complete new cockpit and cabin, new power and drives and needs absolutely nothing! Its practically a new boat. Plus, it looks a 2009, will hit 80 mph all day long, and can turn on a dime. And, since it is based on emotion, if the 2 boats were side by side, I would have to pick the one that is closest to pure sex, and that would have to be the 2000. It has the lust factor, plain and simple :D

If I add to pick I would go for Wild's TS 90mph+, don't think 75mph would do much for me but it is a beautiful boat.

Your right, I would lean towards Wild's boat, but that is based on alot of factors, but by you saying that you would choose Phils boat first just shows that that are buyers out there for a "new" turn key beautiful boat and the bottom or speed is not as important as the style and looks of the boat. There is a buyer for all boats, Just pricing is the only factor !

Thats my biggest factor, I got sick of running 80 wide open to keep up, and I wasnt even keeping up. Although I did throw my ex girlfriend off and picked up 3 MPH :evilb:

and I bet a pocket full of cash too.

Oh you know her !!! :drink:

Anyone got pics of the red JT boat ?

[QUOTE=pm203;2790059]Phil does have an advantage of being close to the manufactoring. The point your making is poor quality control at Cig and if someone is not watching over them they can not perform as well.

How may hours on the motors and drives of this new boat?

[QUOTE=Brad;2791185]I'm not making that point at all. However, when you are building a hand assembled boat like a Cig, its always better to have someone watch the build. And, Phil might also reccomend either lowering or raising the X-dimension based on his clients needs amongst other things that I really don't want to get into. Cigarette Quality is among the best. Buying from Phil guarantees that and steps it up another notch.

The redo turned out fantastic.

The drives are brand new.

I'm not making that point at all. However, when you are building a hand assembled boat like a Cig, its always better to have someone watch the build. And, Phil might also reccomend either lowering or raising the X-dimension based on his clients needs amongst other things that I really don't want to get into. Cigarette Quality is among the best. Buying from Phil guarantees that and steps it up another notch.[/QUOTE]


You are kicking a dead horse. These guys don’t have a clue what Phil actually does to these boats and for his customers.
Let them go buy a used $160,000.00 worn out boat that needs engines, drives, interior and paint. They will have $200,000.00 into a boat if they do the work themselves.
Most likely it won’t get finished or detailed to make the selling price any ware near what they have into it.
When I was running in the mid 70mph range I wanted to go in the mid 80mph. Know that I an in the mid 90mph I sometime think I would like to run 105mph. It doesn’t matter how fast I am running someone is always faster then me and I am trying to keep up.
My old boat may not be the fastest but with Phil’s help you would have never known it the way it drew a crowd on the 2007 Miami to Key West poker run. It even made it into Cigarettes Smokin’ magazine, pg.100
I started out thinking that I could come close to a finished product similar to Phil. I was never happy until I shipped the boat to Phil and he worked his magic.
If you are trying to be logical buy a bout that is 100% finished and as close to new as possible rather then doing what I did.

Phil will get the money for this boat because it is as close to new as you can get and the new owner will have a Lip-Ship addition Cigarette and will also realize that there will always be someone faster on the water.
This boat will draw a crowd also.
If these guys want to go fast and dont care how it is finished (production boat) they certainly should not be looking at a Cigarette or a Lip-Ship Cigarette.
There are fast cookie cutter boats out there, go buy one.

Stopped by last week while I was in town. Boat looks great.

Well, I guess if you're just set on having a negative perception about Cigarette, then I suppose that would be how you are going to read into any comments made during this discussion? They are custom, so automatically more attention is required over a production boat that are all the same.

If the buyer changes his mind during the build, or he see's something that needs to be changed BEFORE it's too late, LipShip is going to catch it WAY before a dealer or owner that lives 2,000 miles away, and see's the boat twice during the entire build. Just like any other boat builder, Cigarette builds what you tell them to.....and sometimes what you tell them gets changed slightly, or heavily. Many changes cannot be discussed correctly over the phone or email.

Again, COULD any of the others do this exact same thing? Of course, but they usually don't. Location plays a big part, not having the time, or enough staff to fly the salesman down often enough. They usually have other boat lines with customers to pay attention to, that require the same dedication as if they were buying a Cigarette.

As a buyer, it's not my problem that a dealer chooses to have their dealership in Alaska, or wherever. If I can't check on the project myself as often as I'd like, I'd expect the dealer to be on the exact same page as myself, and to be able to eyeball it for me. That being the case, I'd prefer a dealer that has easy access to the factory, or makes frequent trips there. Lipship usually has just a few projects going at a time, therefore they can spend that much more attention to each of them. This is exactly why Skater, MTI, OL, only build a small number of boats in a year. More boats = less attention to detail, which adds to the chance something gets overlooked, or confused with another boat.

You are so right. I don't even know why I bother.

Guys my only negative perception is that I believe the builder is the one who puts the magic in these boats not the dealers. I have owned two cigs, a bullet that I did a restore on and a PlayBoy that I had built. I did FPC Poker runs for several years and got a hands on look at several Lip-Ship boats. I truly did not see the difference everyone is telling me about.

What a great looking boat!

If you're asking what makes a lip-ship edition special, it has been discussed and debated over and over again. There's a few people that don't understand it or say that any dealer can do what phil does. Most have never been a customer of his. Phils service is unmatched in the industry. As stated, he overseas every detail of his boats build and adds/changes things frequently along the way to meet his customers needs. His boats have been feature in more magazines, tv and advertisements than any other dealer. His concepts are routinely put into practice by cigarette.

You say you don't see the difference, well maybe not at a quick glance. It's attention to detail from the paint jobs that are routinely copied to the added "bling" that he was doing before it was the standard to getting the most speed out of a boat.

Bottom line. Read my signature line. Pretty much sums it up.

I would equate Phil to be what AMG is to Mercedes. A thought out race knowledge and him directing the factory to do things a little different, more refined for the user. Phils vast knowledge of setups and what works, will make his TG a few mph faster than a stock one from the factory. Cig doesn't have the hands on race experience phil does, and that equates to a better designed product.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input, I never expected such a big response.

Went down to see the boat Saturday and put together a deal with Phil this afternoon!

Since this is my first high performance boat I'll probably be on this forum quite a bit looking for advice.

Thanks again!

Ok now we are getting some info. He sets the boats up better than the factory. So do you believe Phil is better at set-up and rigging than JT or Tres?

congrats, your getting a great boat

Thanks. Good luck with yours.

Congrats!!!!!!!

..and welcome to the Cigarette family.:ernaehrung004:

Craig