I like the way you did the windscreen/window the most so far on that 1972... It looked like it bolted on, and there was room for the deck hatch to work. I thought it may look to steep to go that hi that fast by starting on or close to the factory wind screen mounting aria... looks like the top dose go back past the factory stopping point a little but looked to work and not cramp the front seats... I'd like to have seen it finished with the revers inset stripe, stepped lip and inset window like the way they do on the newer 20's....

so did you check with cigarette to see if there were only 3 boats sold in 1972? or find that out some other way? did your old boat have twin revers scoops in the engine hatch? my boat has two holes in the hatch and the only photo I have seen that makes sens of them looks like it has revers scoops.....

so it looks as if the boat was gelled coated white over the wood chines and bondo! it then needed the red fairing and paint as it was not level so the boat was white with a blue water line when she was first ran for sure... seems like a lot of work and red is a much better color 4 selling boats.......

I was wrong....... the boat was first pulled from the mold with no chine gel coated white on the bottom and red on the sides with a blue water line stripe? after the chine were in the bottom was primed... then the boat was gel coated white the with a silver water line then at some point at the factory the bottom was faired and painted, then the jet pad was built primed and painted.... I can tell by the way the paint was layered how she was painted, the glass from the jet drive pad covered the second white gel coating and red fairing in places... I can not tell if the boat left cigarette white or red as she was sprayed red two more times but no red paint was layered under the factory body work.....

any one know if a William Reaves worked at cigarette ever. as he seems to have owned this boat first.......

I put a level on the boat today and the factory body work is 100% true I mean 4' level no gaps at all!!!!!! I have spent a day or two working the jet drive pick up and have it almost 100% true on the level finish it tomarrow and put her in 545 primer....

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink


sorry the level shot is so close, I'm holding both the t square and snapping the shot so can only git so far away...

I was planing on having the kid that works for me do all this sanding but the bondo needs to stay level so I am stuck and going solo from here in..... lack of skill can undo some very fine factory body work at this point..

gearing a black hawk.....
 

whats the best gear to run in a black hawk? 1.5 to 1 gear or 1.36 to 1 gear

red with blue water line then wight with silver water line
 

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

photos showing she went from red with blue water line to wight with silver water line then dark red with a wight bottom and matching water line....

she may be the boat used in the first 20 cigarette advertising when she was wight and silver after testing and mold making.... the first advertising was in black and wight and listed the boat as a 19'7" and only offered the out drive.. this boat was wight before the jet drive was added.... and there were only two 19'7" sold with out HIN numbers from what I know, and both were colors other then wight... the boat in the advertising had to pre curs the production boats as in any marketing you can not sell what no one knows about.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

the rotted ply in the gauge panel replaced with foam and kevlar... this is the last core replacement in the cap... tomarrow white bilge coat...

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink


primed the hull in filler primer and will sand and 545 her tomarrow... the bottom is true on a 4 foot level every where, it was close to start...

change of plain
 

well going to scrap the blackhawk idea,, seeing as there rely only good to 400 or 500 hp and seeing as I ran it to a guy that cleaned out Howard Arneson private where house and bought 6 brand new asd6 drive's......

any one want to buy a set of new asd6's that are from the founders private stock????

Depends what you are going to run for power and what RPM's it's going to turn and what props you have.

thanks but I scraped the black hawk idea for a arneson asd 6....

I can give some one the # of a friend selling the black hawk for $2500 now that my plan has changed.... heck of a deal..

to understand any thing you must start at the beginning,,,
 

"fact" copied from the arneson web site...

In 1980, Howard Arneson ordered an 18-foot Arena Craft and installed a prototype of his patented Arneson drive. The boat ran great. It handled well and reached a top speed of 78 mph with 280 horsepower. The Arneson drive was born.



there was no drop box at the time, there are photos of the test boat on the net.



there is a lot of info on the ez install of the drop box and the power savings of a velvet drive surface drive system but not a lot of talk about the power loss of running your system throw a second gear driven or chain driven system and even less dyno numbers floating about matching it too a smaller hp with a bravo,,, "I am not talking about top speed's in the water where the drive system is tested but HP at the shaft's " now most boater boat do not build boats and most builders do not use surface drives so the ez of selling a system that just bolt over your o/d hole and lines up to your engine makes it less scary.. and for guys braking zf gears looking for the beef, the world of 1000+ hp it all changes and the drop box make sens but were not talking about that kind of torque at all... 400 to 650hp gas torque range about the sweat spot hp #'s of boats winning races in the 1980's making arneson drives famous.

fact "in 1980 Arneson ordered a custom 38-foot Cougar Cat to race with his new drives. and only won 9 times & World Championships in Open Class in 1983 and 1984 b4 hp range changed and he built a bigger drive's..... but not a drop box?




here's the thing
the donzi 18 that is or was running an asd6 and drop box named after a cartoon mouse was posted to run in the hi 80's from what I have seen and is running a stroker sb 350 at 500hp and the first boat to run a asd 6 was an 18ft and ran 78 with 280 hp sb.... some things getting lost some where... if the numbers are right... 220 hp shuld give you more then 10mph... but swinging them gears or chain takes Hp and adds drag to the over all system... the large size of the drop box leads me to think it built strong and heavy they do not brake but there's got to be a lot more rotating mass then that of a bravo.... the inline style of gearing of the arneson may save a little hp but dose the rotating mass cancel it out when side by side with a bravo or a velt 1.5.1?



now in 1978 I think that the test boat ran a 72c with 1.5.1 gear or was it a 1.1 proped to take rpm from the motor only two real thing that were around in 1978, and at 280hp they were fine with a 1.5.1, but at 500hp you'll grind. un less you crio the reduction some say that a load of bs any way.... but then zf makes a gear that will take 650hp all day but what will the hp losses be? 40hp that of an un modded velt 72c or worse?


the fact is if you needed a drop box to run an asd-6 drive on a small boat there would be no arneson drives at all. as the test boat did not run one... and according to the arneson web site the test boat "handled well and reached a top speed of 78 mph with 280 horsepower." a very respectable # for any 20 cig and much better then any one running 280hp, in fact better then most with 450hp in there 20's...


I think I can get a drive in the engine room with a 350 sb as a jet drive fit.. but the bb will need a coustom stand off to fit a zf.... still have some reading to do.. and need to search out guys racing the systems b4 the drop box was around...


just by looking at all the boats in my yard running a surface drive there are 4, trying to get an idea how to rig this thing, they all seem to be mounted as low as can be on the transom and to be as level as can be to keep the center line of the prop level to the boat bottom.. but looks can kill...

the first arneson was run with a 1.1 direct drive.. In 1979 and 1980...
the first drop box was thought up and put out in 1981 to 1983 to help in some installs.... the smaller asd6 1720 & 1721 were built by b/w for app's that there gears were able to with stand... arneson still built the larger drives him self at that time..

I have read all the stuff I can find so far dating back to 1979 on the arneson systems and wow there grate drive systems... howard arneson drive ..


the 1720 was the very first test model put out by B/W and was still sold as an inline when the 1721 and asd6 where first sold... seems like there was an after market company building a model 1600 drop box chain drive and selling it with the 1720 & 1721 as well as an extended prop shaft for the two drives in 1982 or 83... also the very first drives raced were using a old H style U/J joint that was only good to 700 f/p torque later changed to a c/v joint that was able to take twice that....

The h joint drives were the test drive from what I have read..

I think I have some very old drives here the serial # are low



the cigarette prototype may end up running the arneson prototype...


just odd...

a quote frome arnerson web page..
 

"The hull is a standard 18 foot vee-bottom Arena Craft family runabout. Its power comes from a stock 350 cubic inch Chevrolet V-8 marinized by Crusader Marine and is rated at approximately 260 hp. A Borg Warner Velvet Drive transmission provides forward, neutral and reverse gear selection. The hull is also fitted with an electrically controlled adjustable cavitation plate. Propeller selection for the run was a virtually out-of-the-box three blade 14" x 16" Federal Ni-bral brass prop made by Michigan Wheel. Although we were expecting to see some sort of space age propeller configuration, Arneson reported that even though this conventional submerged propeller type was far from optimum for a surface piercing application, it dramatically proved how forgiving his propulsion concept was. Arneson also pointed out that any kind of propeller shaft spline or taper can be provided in order to accommodate a multitude of propeller styles and makes.

Immediately noted at low speed was predictable direction tracking with no tendency for the boat to wander as is the case with some stern drives. At idle, the propeller was just barely covered by water, however no unusual wake or froth behind the boat was created. Steering control was responsive. Maneuverability, both forward and reverse, was outstanding, almost like a jet which will pivot round in its own length. Slow speed turning was noticeably tighter than with a stern drive or outboard.

Getting up on plane was smooth and effortless with very little bow rise. Because of the propeller's close proximity to the surface, the engine tends to rev higher than with a submerged unit. However, this should riot be confused with "runaway" propeller ventilation since the surface piercing prop was efficiently biting water and moving the boat forward. As we eased on the throttle, the tachometer indicated about 3000 rpm as the boat slowly gained speed up to a clean plane.

Giving it more power on take-off brought the rpms up close to 4000 during this brief transition mode and acceleration was rapid. Actually, the ability to have the engine rev easily from an idle is an advantage, especially under a load condition since it allows the engine to enter a more favorable horsepower and torque range. Once on plane and holding a steady throttle setting, rpms decreased as the propeller came into its efficient surfacing condition. Minimum rpm to maintain a comfortable plane was 2400 to 2500.

The most impressive part of the demonstration, however, was its upper end performance. Acceleration from a speed of 25 mph was instantaneous. Utilizing a straight 1:1 ratio, and an inboard cruiser type three-blade brass prop, top speed ranged between 65 to 70 mph depending on trim position of the unit at 4700 rpm. At speed, the boat was capable of hands-off steering and no unpleasant ride characteristics such as chine-walking or poising were experienced.

Water conditions varied from smooth to considerable wind chop and small swells. During that time, the prop never once broke free of the water, a condition which many people falsely suspect as a drawback to the surface piercing concept. The same is true for high speed turns which were performed without a hint of ventilation.

Operation of the trim control is essentially the same as on a stern drive or outboard powered boat. However, from our brief evaluation, it appears that trimming the Arneson Drive causes a less significant change in trim attitude of the hull than more conventional propulsion sources. For general purposes, the Arneson Drive unit could be located at one position and left there for both planing and high speed running. However it would be noted that a full down-angle of the surface piercing drives virtually eliminates the large flowing roostertail which is characteristic of this system. In the down position, recreational water skiers should not experience any interference from the spray off the propeller."

now according to Rick at arnerson this never happened...
it is your choice Howard Arnerson or Rick who works for arnerson...

I am going with Howard! I am going 78!

where did i git the INFO?

http://www.howardarneson.com/articles/article7r.asp

photos of howard arnesons 18ft surface drive 1979
 

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

The first photo is of howard arneson's 70mph and 78 mph test boats..

This is what my cigarette set up will look like nice and clean, no stand off box, no drop box, clean... if I stay little M small block.. but then my lazy bb idea is gone... have to build a pi$$ed of sb...

... the drive's I have are the same as in the photo.... there was no steer ram at the time only trim in 1983, look at the non arneson rams the boats do not have any trim tabs one has a fixed trim.... neat. telling.... the second photo the boat dose not even have the delta wing...

I have 1 extra set of the drives for sale....


there are no gears to up grade here just a shaft and a H style u joint good to 700fp torque..... that's more then 800 hp....

not that I want any thing like that....

well I have read a lot of test data in the last day or two on running the drive in the 18ft test boat... I am using my drive on a 19.7 cigarette it's why I have been reading...

Howard Arneson ran the 18ft 1:1 with the 260hp motor and a 16 x 14% M/W for 70mph, after maybe some pitching and adding 20hp he ran 78mph

Twin Disk ran the 18 with a !:! and there drop box 1.5:1 with 450 hp ford and a and ran a 16 3/4 x 21or22% pitch and made 88mph at the same rpm....


that's a real good side to side on the way the system runs !to! and 1.5to1 thro a drop box.... same size boat both tests by who is running the shop at the time in there own words.....

the data is all from howard arnason and twin disk. it all on howard arnersons site.....

wow so it took 180hp for twin disk to out run howard's time by 10 mph...
so 22K for 10 mph and 20k more on the engine by what the data shows... I know, I know 22k for the drop box and 100 of my horses is all twin disk wants.....



Pitch Baby....


this gives me a good pitch range for testing my boat 14 to 21, and running 1:1 with more hp I think may be 15 or 16 % but just off the top of my head...

now I have been told by twin disk my drives are old but not from howard's shop and other parts dealers have gotten large lots of old 1720's so they were produced...

here's the kicker and I mean the real kicker.....
I got 3 props with the drive's, two 16 3/4 x 21 and one 16 3/4 x 22 brass 3 blade's and that is the same same exact size, style and the 21's are the same pitch as the prop that was used on the twin disc 18 test boat....

it means nothing,,,, but it strange the lot I bought that is marked to be dropped off at the freight depo tomarrow has 3 props that size, style and pitch alto wrong for a 1:1 I can pitch them... think about the odds of getting the correct prop hear guys.... maybe they are all 1721's the photos I have suck......

Rick at arneson called me yesterday... He explained that although I have found more then one reference to the fact that Howard Arnerson's first test boat ran 1:1 Rick insists it was a chain drive in the engine compartment that the righter over looked when explaining how the drive system used a standard in board coupler to connect to the 1:1 velt... He also let me know that Howard arneson has noting to do with the Howard arneson web site, and can not control what content is on there site... I do trust the data on the site, and the data I found on the arneson industries website, when I checked it was matching data.


towards the end of the call after I just was not buying the chain dive i have never read about any where not even ad's offering such a drive 1979 in other markets. He told me I can run 1:1 but why they do not recommended doing so...

the boat will not plain as quickly. 4000 rpm
the boat will not hold plane below 2400 rpm.


if you look at the side by side data of the twin disk test and the test drive and compare the rpm ranges.

the boat come on plane at 3800rpm in 1.5:1
the boat will hold plane down to 2000rpm in 1.5:1

the only other difference it the top speed your much faster with 1:1. you end up with all but 9hp in the water with in !:! expect to give up 30 to 50% running throw and gear driven or chain system...

from all the data I have found a cigarette 19.7 will go faster then 88mph running 450hp !:! direct. how much faster there not much vested interest in saying....



what do I think about twin disks thought's on running the system 1:1 it make pitching all the boats they do a pain.... see if you sell a 1.5:1 gas and a 1:1 diesel it make running pitch # some what standard. and for 99% of boats the drop box makes the system fit.. the drop box also take a little of the edge off the system making if more open market... and lastly gas boats are a small part of there market and small boats are rely no part of there market plain... over all its just good business to recommended a drop gear to every last gas powered boater that calls.

would there be a big difference in the 280 or 380 Merc trim tabs? Ive noticed Phil puts on the 380's.

I meant k plate tabs not trim tabs.

want to see what I got today?
 

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

dose any one other then me think it's strange that 2 of the drives a cast patent pending? kind first gen! or that the 3 props are the exact same size and pitch as the 18ft twin disk test boat? the extra ball is still in a cloth bank bag like the ones banks move cash in like the guy told me...

may not be any thing but odd
I buy 6 drives knowing nothing about the surface drive system and get the right set up for an 18 with the correct props.....

there all new!!!!

I have a direct drive twin engine set up shaft to prop's needing only the transom housing & trim cylinder's...
I have a single engine set up shaft to prop with transom housing and trim....
I have two new drives all but the transom housing..

I am keeping all but two drive's they are new and I will sell them for $2000 each they are too clean to ask any thing less.... and I have a friend who wants them he needs cash I just want the money so show me the green and go 78mph with 260 hp.... I will be...

dig the little factory oil tag's, wired to the drives .....

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Whats ur thought on the tab question above? Thanks for any info

All I know about tabs is that them tab's on "Phil's boats" or the big long tabs look cool as he!!.. I mean just wicked.. the only point i can see to adding a such a larger tab to such a small boat other then the slickness factor is to make the boat act as a larger craft..... I know of much larger heaver off shore boats with smaller tabs, so you can trim a big boat with a smaller tab but more of the bottom is on plain due to how heavy a large boat is so there more water to trim..... if the boat is not heavy it may lift out of the water.... so the dead rise of the hull moves the smaller tab's out of the water at hi speed?? the longer tabs may be so they can still make contact with the water or a larger surface can make contact toward the end of the tab.... or they look cooler.. I have no idea.. have not looked in to it yet...

Can a local come by and check out your efforts? I'll be in the area Fri morn around 8am.

now that the days are longer I tend to work later and skip rush hour. 10:30ish to 7pm.. but only owners can walk in after 6pm but most days I am around..

Was across the street at banyan so I missed you. About to start a deck-off myself so I figured I'd get a look at what I'm in for.

That's cool.. what are you building?

well just in line for the paint booth... I am going to paint the bottom and bilge and make her one piece to finish the body work on the deck...
I started messing with the window will up load what new soon....

keep us updated with more pictures! Good job on the project so far!

thanks...
I try a post some to night...
I primed the bottom in the paint both to day a gallon of hi build fallowed by wight 545.... I will mover her out for a final blocking before the bottom gets painted with awlgrip.... try to paint the bottom in the next day or so..


The wind screen mod has been just messing with me... I will have to post photos of it in "the looking at the boat stage" I am in now. with the window..

window mod 1
 

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

the last photo is of the out board hole that is being filled....

I took transom rated foam and copied the old window onto it then went about 3 inches above the factory window and back past the end of the factory window.... I think the window needs to go back about 1 foot so the angle is not so steep...

I wanted to start the window it the factory aria as its the widest part of the beam and most all boats start the window at this point... it keeps the top and bottom of the window the same size and keep's the top from becoming larger then the bottom... to make it work with out making the angle look funny from the side the window will need to go back further then on the newer and moded 20's.. the other thing needing to be addressed is that the top of window ends up over the steering wheel... I plan to take care of this buy carving a a large light 5lb block of foam to fit in be tween the sides of the window from where the hatch starts all the way back past the dash by 6in then I'll carve the front of the screen and a dash so i can in set the wheel and set up a custom gauge pod and so on...

hard to put whats in my head to words.... just give me a week to play, and I'll post photos...

I see that you are changing the fairing on the deck and it looks to me as like you are gonna make it like the newer 20' Cigs out there. Pictures show progress, and I thought you'd like to see my lil Mini Hawk project:

http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/atta...teboat-003.jpg

[QUOTE=MiniHawk;3102238]I see that you are changing the fairing on the deck and it looks to me as like you are gonna make it like the newer 20' Cigs out there. Pictures show progress, and I thought you'd like to see my lil Mini Hawk project:



that is cool, what kinda boat is it? this is my first speed boat sorry not an expert..

ya I kinda want to make the window faring bolt on. I can put plastic down be for glassing it and that way it will screw in and be removable... I just want the top angle to be less steep, it will have to travel back a foot or two further, then I can carve back the extended area above the factory window like the newer boats.. there is no way to keep the hatch & the cockpit aria the same size so that the forward angle of the window faring is at the same rate of incline as the newer boats.

I do like the newer boats, and mod boats but the photos from the bow, or looking down at the deck, strike me as disproportionate. The closer I looked at the 20's and all other boats in the yard, like the lipship top gun in storage so including all other cigarettes. They all start the window at the largest point of the beam. the only boats that the faring extends forward of that widest beam point are boats with a round cock pit... I also think eating up the long closed deck with faring takes away from the cigarette look of a large closed bow deck and think the bow deck needs to be as long as possible to keep the boat from looking stubby..

On the other hand I find the angle much to steep on any 20's I have seen with faring in the factory wind screen location... but it is mostly the top angle, it ends up making the window look to triangular and to much like an add on... the larger cigarette boats all seem to have a steep for ward incline..


kinda torn..

[QUOTE=tomuchstuff;3102264]My little boat is called a "Mini Hawk" Its 13 ft long, and has a 25hp Merc. These boats are still being made today under the name "Hot Dog Boats"

I see what you are talking about with the difference between the 20 cig and the bigger cigs.

here is a nice picture of a 39' Gun. Look at the incline on the fairing.
http://www.absoluteboat.com/htm/images/cigarette.jpg

I am just starting to mess with the window faring... I still do not know what way I will go with it... painted the hull, awlgrip wight, I will re paint all but the bottom when she's in one piece.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Your 20' would look great with grey sides with the cigarette script on the side.

That is one sexy Cig! Any back ground info?

GB

Dont know bud, wish I knew. Looks new, also. Also comes with some deck ornaments:eek: