Hey there tomuchstuff,

I like the way your doing the fairing.

My old Cig 20 had a fairing and it was just the way your designing it. I could pop it off with about 5 screws.

I recommend you keep it just like your doing it.

I think it looks better than the new style because it is a little bit steeper and you get more foredeck which makes the boat appear a bit longer as opposed to the snub nose look.

Also you get to keep the ski locker, (beer cooler).

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/c...ture-book.html

My old boat is the first one.

:drink:

the story I got with the drives....
 

I am sure the guy I got the parts from was full of B.S about how he worked for twin disk years ago, and his family member is still there at twin disk. and they "cleaned" out howard arnesons work shop after the twin disk take over, and the guy's end up with the drives "some how" & the funny side note of that story was about how howard arneson kept the one extra thrust ball in canvas money bag from seattle first national bank as one of mine is stored.


btw
found the housing and thrust ball serial # on the drives I have and unit I plan to use on the cig, housing model # 17-20-001 serial # 0000013 kinda a first run 1720 I'd say... lucky 13

now the housings and the other parts all have serial's of there own, parts were cast by the 1000 and built into drives so non of the serials will match on any one unit, but a low number factory built drive will have low numbers on all the parts...

my thrust balls, are all stamped from 169 to 350 that is other then the one ball in the seattle first national bank cash bag no number's at all are stamped into that casting.... Think if you invented the thrust ball the part that makes the arneson surface drive work and worth a buck you might keep the first one in a bank cash bag after it makes you a butt load of money? who knows if howard did such a thing? some one did with an un numbered thrust ball.

the u joint are # but were most likely taken from some thing Borg warner was casting for auto motive use or some thing and may have a much, much bigger serial # didn't look close the casting is hard to make out


the the shafts and thrust tubes have no #'s... I can see and I am not braking down a new drive...

the props are 16 3/4 x 21% hi rake same as the one used in later twin disk test. and a 16 1/2 x 22% hi rake with a lot work & lot of edge cupping.


low # do kinda add to the story.. and the un # bank bag ball is strange. rik told me there nothing to trace the old drives so we will never know...

I think so it was in red gell or black...was it a jet or o/d?

I am kinda coping you on the faring...

my little brother says the same thing says it looks faster with more angle and I am with you on the beer cooler...

pitching the drive help any one? brain hurts
 

I kinda have some side to side test data to go by as far as pitching the arneson drive....

boat 18 jet boat....

first set up
260 hp sb
1:1 drive 40hp power loss at = torque at 1:1 rmp
16x14% m.w prop
70mph

second
450hp 460 ford
1:1 40hp power loss
1:5.1 100hp power loss and 1.5 times the torque at 1.5 less rpm
16 3/4 x 21% hi rake
83mph

1 inch of prop is worth 2% of pitch

I know that I want to be between 14 and 22% pitch and 16 to 16 3/4 in size to run a 500hp sb 1:1

I think I need 16 3/4 between 19 to 22%

for simplicity I keep it in terms of hp rather then torque.

boat one has 220 hp after drive in the water at 1:1 and turns a 16 x 14% prop at 4400 rpm

boat two has 300 some odd hp after drive and gear but the gear multiplies it by 1.5 that gives you 525hp at a bout 2,933 after ratio and turn a 16 3/4 x 21%...

so a boat running a bam 1.1 12hp loss with 537hp bb will turn a 16 3/4 x 21% hi rake at 4400 rpm....

220hp in water 16x14% if 16 3/4 it be 12.5% pitch, prop has to shrink to give it rake at low hp.

but you can say for reference:
220 hp 16 3/4 x 12.5% pitch
535 hp 16 3/4 x 21% pitch

so is it far to say that then you can give hp ranges between the two varying % of pitch?

220 hp to 320hp 16 3/4 x 12.5% pitch to 16 3/4 x 15.5%
320hp to 420hp 16 3/4 x 15.5% pitch to 16 3/4 x 19.5%
420hp to 535 hp 16 3/4 x 9.5% pitch to 16 3/4 x 23%


I don't know just a thought....

The Cafe's have the best looking fairings, how bout creating a custom one for the 20? :coolcowboy: Good luck w/ your project, its fun reading about it.

Mine was red and white.

I was going to make foam pieces the same shape as what you have made so far on your fairing to fill in the gap. Then I was going to attache that foam filler to the side pieces that run down the inside of the cockpit to the back bench and cover it with vinyl.

This way you could still have a removable fairing and have it match the thickness of the cockpit sides like the new Cig 20's do.

Then I was going to cap it with a colored vinyl strip along the top like a modern cigarette. You know the part that looks like if you stop short you would hit your head on a pad instead of the top of the fairing.

Finally, I was going to make a 2" triangle shaped strip to run the top front of the forward fairing as a lip so I could attach a full length wind deflector.

Basically I wanted it to look just like the newer made Cig 20's, but with a steeper shorter fairing.

I thought that would look classy and unique.

Sold the boat to Klaw before I could finish.

I am enjoying watching this thread.

Keep the pics coming...

:drink:

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just plaing
 

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Yep, I like it! :drink:

I was going to keep the dash board in the original place and just get a steering helm that was longer to clear the top of the fairing.

I was afraid if I pushed the dash back, it would shrink the leg room for the back seat passengers.

Looking real good.

Those are great pictures- great progress you are making! There is 20' Cig thread with tons of pictures, created by Air Dog, if you should ever need ideas for paint, interior.

ya
I think the dash needs to stay in the factory place for leg room also not a big cockpit to start with.... Photo 2 and 3 are how I think I will spray mount the foam in for carving... I can put one block across above the factory dash and one to fill the aria in front. then carve the forward angle. The new upper dash will need to be carved out for the steering wheel to fit, maybe I can keep the dash thicker where it connects to the new style center console and I can carve out an angled gauge cluster that faces the driver....

look at the att photo see how the foam will step back 3 inches above the dash....

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

ya
I down loaded all of the 20 photos from his post, it was a lot of help to me to see all cool ways owners went custom on there old 20's, and to see the newer 20's change over the years as a result of what owners have done.

That's a real good post...
thanks
Air Dog.

That was a good thing to do! I also want to thank Air Dog too- those were great pix to look at :)
I am working currently on my 13' Mini Hawk and I get ideas from looking at other Mini Hawks too.

lucky #13
 

Here is the housing sticker.... #00013 to be exact...

my iphone needs more light and I can't get a good close up with this thing, sorry for the photo... the damage to the tag is to the clear plastic over the foil tag the dark ring is glue from the clear foil cover and some of the clear hanging...


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

torque
 

just some math...

so if the second boat ran a 450 hp engine and 1.5:1 drop it may have seen 300 hp in the water at best "my thinking" & I may be wrong but did some math on "my thinking" seeing as I have no data on the drop box power loss.....

So if I say the power loss is 150hp from the drop gear. you end up with 300hp if you convert 300 hp to torque its 358.9 fpt and multiply it by 1.5:1 the gear you get 537 fpt at 4400 prop spinning at 2.999... if you convert no power loss 450hp to torque its 537 fpt at 4400 prop spinning at 4400...

now I was just taking a stab at power loss but if you wanted to test the 1.1 inline to the 1.5:1 drop the only way to do it is to run the same amount of torque after power loss to the same pitch propeller... all that changes it final rpm of the prop so you see what the gear dose other them make it simple to install...

it takes hp/tq to move prop pitch & size so if this math is correct the pitch range numbers I put down still work for me.


220 hp to 320hp 16 3/4 x 12.5% pitch to 16 3/4 x 15.5%
320hp to 420hp 16 3/4 x 15.5% pitch to 16 3/4 x 19.5%
420hp to 535 hp 16 3/4 x 19.5% pitch to 16 3/4 x 23%

I need data on the power loss from the drop box....

I have a 21% and 22% I am going to buy a 19%, 20% & 23% pitch in a 16 3/4

there is no data of twin disk running a side by side..

but the asd6 planes at 3800 rpm and 4000 rpm with a chopper that's only 200rpm faster then inline.. the drop gear will hold plane at 2000 rpm that's 400 less rpm then the inline. not much mid range pick up. but ez to install...
the top end change it unknown... yet

to do what the drop box wanted to do on a 20' boat you'd need a 400 hp engine with a 14" x 16% and a 3 to 1 that changed with rpm into a 16" x 14% and a 2 to 1 gear like say around 1400 rpm's then after planing at around 2000rpm a 1:1 gear shift the prop can go 16 3/4 x 23%. low mid and top end... there are gears that will do the job, the trick is a prop that changes size and pitch and is programed to the torque curve of the engine thro its rpm range......

well if I can only have one I will pick top end...

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here's a little boat that is in the yard. she is on one of the lip ship videos on there web site. I think its a movie boat. it is 4 sale 280k I think.

I have not been working my boat the last couple days, I need the paint to fully cure to flip the hull... So I have been fixing my new shop installing the air compressors, 7000lbs lifts, and setting up storage for parts so they do not get over sprayed...

I may start doing some customer restorations once more, and shooting awlgrip "not awlcraft"

from the arneson web site...
 

"The ASD6 drive unit when coupled to a modified transmission unit has a lower HP loss than that of a Bravo™, which in turns puts more power to the water."

the bam has 12hp loss....

factory transmission 40hp loss...


so with out a bam "The ASD6" has more loss. and with a bam can pick up 28hp at best.. I was too kind to the drop gear at 100hp loss....

When the twin disk test was done there was no "modified transmission" yet.
So if I can get good data on a bravo 1's power loss, I can do some math..

here is some cheap math.... 450hp - 50% hp = 225hp, converted to torque 268fpt, multiplied by 1.5 the drop box = 402fpt, converted to hp and you get 337hp in the water... to spin a 16 3/4 x 21%p prop..

so a 349hp engine 1:1 with a bam 72c will give 337hp in the water.. and turn the same 16 3/4 x 21% prop only 2000rpm faster..

what do you think happens if you move the same volume of water 2000rpm's faster?

this messes my pitch scale all up... any one got good data on bravo power loss????????

block sanding
 

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finished the hull sides...
any one use a base clear system over awl grip on there cig? I have a lot of House Of Kollor sitting around....

arneson drop box
 

The drop box's sold by arneson are chain and gear driven.. The system has just as much power loss as a bravo with a stock velvet. The drop box hp loss is due to drag from the friction of the chain or gears and the friction of oil pick up in the wet sump or from the pump in a dry sump oiling system as with after market drop boxes, also the increased mass of the rotating assembly cost a lot of hp alone....


A 2.6 inch wide carbon industrial synchronous belt will run 1000hp and more if wider and can be 5". If you use a stock 2.6x5 inch pulley and run with a stock 2.6x7.5 inch pulley you have 1.5:1, In fact you can have any ratio you need, with a belt tensioner you can change gears with ez if the housing was built right.....

synchronous belt's are 99% efficiency compared to 91-95% of other drives like gear or chain. There is less rotating mass than other drive systems. There is less service and replacement needed. There is no need to OIL a belt!!!!!

belts have replaced chains and gears in all drive systems from auto engine timing to powering motor bikes so why not a marine drop box...

with existing pulleys and the local cnc shop I can build a belt drive drop box for under $3000 that will not need oil and may be more efficient then existing drives with a # of gear options. I can even drive two arneson 1720's off my one engine.. But a twin drive has no point till after 1000hp and that's well more then my planed hp range....

this is just a thought if I cant run 1:1 that is...

truth fully I do not know why arneson just dose not build a belt drive drop box with a motor bike clutch pulley and a thrust plate like a big trim tab that can be attached to the upper fin that can be lowered in front of the prop to devert thrust to back up. Then it'd be a drive with a built in 3 gear system...

the arneson in truth is an old idea with a car's cv join slapped on it. not a drive but a prop shaft. and an unfinished thought. but if existing ideas were used on this re thought of an old idea in the same way it was first improved it can become a drive system...

just a thought,,

10 min of love
 

well got in a good 10 min today b4 the 4 o clock summer rain...


The two pieces of foam in the center are tabbed on to the deck to hold the shape of the front of the slope and to give me some thing other than the foam sides to screw in to to keep the foam in place. the two center pieces of foam will be removed after the lay up. The thin single piece of glass on the front sloped foam, is to hold the foam in place so I can remove the screws and do a proper lay up...


I still plan to cut down the sides to factory size and glass a second piece of foam on the in side of the foam. this will make side foam the size it is now and give me the in-set the new 20's have mid slope and I'll also be able to change the top slope to sweep back further along the cockpit's edge. the forward slope will get the center in-set and mid slope in-set in the glass lay up I think.. well one more day or 3 and it can be removed so I can finish the deck get to some fun stuff....


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one more crazy idea on tabs
 

so phil runs a 32inch tab on some 20's.... I have read the 20' is bow heave but lots of hp and the lbs of a big block must make the boat come up hi in the bow to need 32" tabs. I'd also think the tabs at that size must make the boat feel larger. may be making it feel like a 23 rather then a 20 any feed back...

So my crazy idea, take a mold of my transom and 32" inches of the bottom between the big 14 x 32" tab's. To make a bolt on stand off box with swim platform, may be with a step where the two attach. altho the tabs will make that step fun... This will give me room to install a big m engine and velt mounted to stringers and u joint to my arneson drive.. think it'd be 2 or 300 lbs...


any thoughts???

I have heard the bow heavy concern before.

The way I understand it is if you go with any big block or a standard small block, then you will be okay.

If you go with a real light small block, then you may encounter bow steer.

I just picked up a 20' Sutphen and I have heard they are a bit bow heavy too.

I like your resto on this Cig, keep the pics coming.

Are you going to mount the steering wheel to the original dash? I would, because if you don't you will shrink your cockpit. On a 20' boat every inch of seating area counts...

Very impressive job so far on your boat.

:drink:

If you guys need rigging, gauges etc...let me know. I love projects and can help with pricing.

Kirk

[email protected]

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glassed the forward slope with a proper lay up the removed the wind screen and got rid of them tabs....

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photo 1: once the wind screen was of i glassed the in side and photo 2: slapped back on the boat photo 3: and screwed a the dash foam to the old dash tabbed it into the wind screen then pulled back off and glassed it some more on the in side.....

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then I put the wind screen back on

the last photo of the pipe on the window shows what angle i think the top slope needs to be if you fallow the bottom line of the pipe or in other words if the hole in between the pipe and boat was glass... some thing for tomarrow...

thanks

The dash is in the factory aria it extends up 6" or so more inches from the top of the factory dash top. it looks like the wheel will end up in the exact same place.. I have to lay up some curve in to the front slope.. but have to finish the in-sets first...

bow steer and transom extentons....
 

here is the thing... back before 1968 most race boats ran inboard. the thinking was as in most planing inboard boats to day to center the engine and balance the boat... the out drive that every one had converted to by mid 1970's brought the engine further to the transom and created bow lift more so the even the center engine boats. both inboad and out drive boat had a need for tabs as both boat got thrust below the water line...

the tab's put hook in you hull and cost speed...


so I was thinking to run an arneson you'd want a more center engine and balanced boat to reduce bow lift and keep the boat on as level plane as can be. as the boat is getting thrust at water line not below so will draw most lift from engine in the rear, so to get as much thrust and as little drag as you can you'd need your prop level not trimming down... this is the thinking behind extending the transom with a stand off box molded from the transom and bottom..... along with giving me room for a big M, 1:1 bam and drive shaft.......

here maybe the draw back.

arneson's and surface drives as a whole only make slow boats save fuel and fast boats faster or planing and displacment hulls run better at peak ranges....

so arneson do not plain untill 3800 or 4000 they have to be propped at plane when the prop is out and the drag on the hull has changed so there is no mid range no matter the gearing... may plane at 2400 with a 6:1 the run at 22kn with 450hp

so the drive may need the extra lbs in the rear to help over come plane and the stand off box may put them pound's further back to help onto plane. a balanced boat may not plane till 4300 or some thing

i dont know...

any one?

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finished the front also,,, phone died only 2 photos to day....

Yes, follow the pipe.

I think that looks even better!

Just make it so you can put the 2-3 inch padded strip along the top as your passengers will want to rest their arm on top of it.

Your boat is gonna look great!

:drink:

Thanks,,, I hope it look good..

the sides are just foam now.. and 1/2" thick once glassed the top edge will be 1" thick... I did run a 2" strip across the front but I do not want the sides to over hang the interior side panels....

the front slope has a lot more curve to now I will try to up load some photos today...

Looking great!

Looking good!!

Mine is near completion, check it out :)

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...0&l=58f95724e3

wow I only looked at the first page

"Looks like your close to paint and power.... like the window mod did you close the deck hatch? I dig the clean look of the factory size molded window. I have seen some 20's with window's in the same color of the boat and it's kinda that same look. I have not seen it molded in factory aria and size. I thought it may look cool molded like that and i do like it very much.. nicer looking than the color matched glass and i like that style so think yours will look real nice painted.. what color are you thinking for paint?"


very slick...dig that molded out board bracket... your a lot closer then I thought after a second look... LOL

Yeah, people have laughed at some of Phil's 20s for having the big tabs, saying it's a "little overkill", but it's really funnier to see how little those people know about 20 Cigarettes.

I wish I had the long tabs on mine at times, and will probably put them on at some point. On the pad bottom, it's nice to run the tabs at even on the boat for exactly one of the reasons you mentioned, to make the boat feel like it's longer. I can run my 20 in rougher water without using tab, but I have to run faster. If I just want to cruise in it, I like the way it rides better with a little tab. The longer tab makes it ride that much better.

I never thought any thing Phil did to a 20' cig was funny...

I did read some posts about bow steer with alu sbc engines.. The posts I read seemed to do more with what guy's were just thinking, going by the way that big block and small block boats sit in the water parked, rather than any thing first hand... they are all O/D boats most running black hawk's for the most part so I think the x is not the same as a bravo 1, prop maybe closer to the water line but not at hi as a tru surface drive keeping it below the transom. I think the drive hangs back further that may change the balance giving more bow lift. . the add distance of the black hawk and the below transom thrust point of the prop may give the 20 crazy bow lift with out the tabs... the tabs may also give the boat a sort of transom near the prop and help surface the prop?

As far as extending my transom for an arneson. I think it a bad idea. the boat may be too balanced and have trouble planing,,, I think a stand off box in the molded off the transom may be a real good idea as moving as much of the lbs back will only help.... but it have to over hang the transom edge not be a planing surface... still thinking.

I wasn't trying to imply that YOU were laughing, and I have rarely disliked the ideas Phil puts into his boats as well. I apologize if my post read that way.

I havne't had any bow steer on my 20. Granted, I don't have the biggest tabs, but mine are the next size down. They really make a difference when it's too choppy to run them all the way up.

no it didn't read like that, I know what you were saying..

I had my eye on a set of nos 32" k-planes but do not know how the boat will act with a surface drive. just do not want to lay out $$$ till I run the boat...

Maybe i made a mistake but i went with the 280's because first, i got a decent price on them and second i really didnt know that little extra tab length on the big ones would really make a noticable difference. I could diffentely be wrong but i know the 280's will make a huge difference compared to what i have now. Ill be runnin hard on the tabs friday no matter what the water condition is:eek::drink: