As a faceless member of the OSO populace (rather than the guy who's bucked-up to buy the boat and pay for the work), I'd have to cast my vote for doing the boat as the Thunderbird. I think you could pull off the "split personality" paint scheme and have it look decent, but the engine turned finish is so rare and spectacular that you'd really be missing an opportunity to present the boat in a way that would be hard to replicate with any other boat. I can't imagine what it would cost to do that finish at today's labor rates.

And, even though we weren't asked, I'm still voting for the turbines!

Good luck, she's beautiful!

Mike,

I just came across this thread. My dad put the engines in that boat and raced it back in the sixties. He is in several of the pics that banana sent.

I would love to see the boat next time I am out west.

How is it progressing?

Dave
Thanks for the post!
If you are out in this area please stop by, I would love to show you the boat! It's a real piece of history and I feel lucky to own it. I would like to share this boat and it's history with as many people as possible, it's been kind of tough to do living out here in colorado. I am still trying to find any bits and pieces of info. that I can . It has been real difficult, apparently the people who owned and drove this boat didn't take any pics or keep any documents. The only things I have been finding are what's on this post and a couple articles. I tried several times to e-mail you but they keep getting blocked.
Anyway I would really enjoy talking to you, my # is 970-474-2020 hm. Your e-mails to me seem to work fine.
I am looking forward to meeting you and showing you the boat. I am also wondering if you have seen it in real life back when it was racing or just in pics?
thanks
jim

David, this is the e-mail I have been trying to send to you.

David
Mark from chinewalking sent me an e-mail saying that you have some pictures and video of the thunderbird. I have been having a hard time finding any original photo's or video's, Seems like there was not very many movies taken in 1966. I am trying to document the history of this boat, it is a very special boat and I feel very lucky to own it. Any stories or documentation that you feel should be shared would be greatly appreciated. They would always be kept with the boat and with any future owners. Hopefully I will be able to keep this boat and show it for many years to come. I am going to restore it to the original thunderbird racing finish. I can't afford to put turbines back in it but I do have the original exhaust cover so it will look like it did in the 60's. Any technical data would be awesome, I understand that your father helped with the installation. I am very happy to have found you and look forward to talking to you. By the sound of your e-mail address you must still be in the boating industry. Typing takes me forever but I am getting better (LOL).
thanks!
James Mc Nitt
Julesburg Co.

A little bit more history on your boat
 

This isn't Dave this is Greg. David didn't tell me he had heard of you having this boat.
Neither of us saw the boat ever. It is as old as he is and only 10 years younger than me.

It appears that you have all the pictures we have. I see you also have a video. If the video is called Bouncin to Bimini and starts as an interview with Jim Wynne it is the same video we have. Back in the sixties after the race dad brought home a 16mm film taken from a helicopter. Very impressive footage. I never saw that film again.

Pratt and Whitney has the Bouncin to Bimini video in their historical archives. I went to work there for a couple years in the late seventies and the video was shown to us as part of new employees orientation.

Before I make my next trip to Colorado I will get with David and see how many pics we can put together for you.

That white circle on the sides had a big UA for United Aircraft I believe it said Corporate Systems Center in smaller letters.
United Aircraft was the parent company of Pratt and Whitney, and Sikorsky, as well as Corporate Systems Center. United Aircraft changed their name to United Technologies in 1975 when they purchased Otis Elevator Dad worked for Corporate Systems Center. That was the first boat to get turbine power. After that he worked on powering ships and crew boats with turbines, a couple ships went to US Army and several were for Canada. The crew boats were used on the Gulf Coast for oil rig service. There were 4 cargo ships powered by turbines also. Dad was able to get me working on one of the cargo ships for a month when I was in high school. He also powered some trains with the turbines. I have seen the trains they are sitting in a rail yard in NJ.
Around the same time the Thunderbird was being built, CSC also put the same turbine into an Indy Car. They had similar results as the boat. Very fast not real practical and soon regulated out of the sport.

I will make sure to see you on my next Colorado trip.
Greg Hartmann
860 984-9033

Pictures
 

Somewhere I have a sleve of slides. a long time ago I compiled this picture for a website.

I will look for the info I have

i can't see how to upload photos

Try this link
http://gallery.mac.com/davidyh#10043...&bgcolor=black

other photos?
 

I am not sure what Broward Marine is doing now but I belive this boat was build in the Broward Marine Yard, I wonder if they have any archive photos

Article from Sports Illustrated 10-28-1968 "Water Jet Drive?"
 

:eek:
October 28, 1968
A Whoosh As Good As A Wish
Smaller and more powerful than other marine engines, Thunderbird's water jet has one disability: its price is a bit more than $40,000
Hugh Whall




As a weekend pleasure boatman, what would you say to an engine that ran more economically at high speeds than at low, that developed more horsepower than your current power plant but weighed far less and was far smaller, that burned cheap oil instead of expensive gas, and that made fallible appendages like rudders, drive shafts and propellers unnecessary? The obvious answer is: don't ask foolish questions.

As a matter of fact, however, the question is not so foolish, for a Utopian power plant meeting all those requirements and designed for the amateur boatman actually exists. For some time now the citizens of Miami, many of whom must have thought a drunk was loose on Biscayne Bay in a shiny 32-foot power cruiser, have been witnessing its trials.

Whoosh! First it would start, then stop; back then fill, aimlessly turning this way and that as if its befuddled driver couldn't find the right control. On occasion it would swing out of Government Cut and head for the rippling Gulf Stream beyond Miami Beach, where its drunken maneuvering would continue in ever-tightening figure eights. Frequently, like some airborne Keystone Cop, an agitated helicopter could be seen chasing the demented craft. But the helicopter's bubble was filled with staid engineers from Pratt & Whitney Aircraft, the company that built the engine that drove the boat in those seemingly crazy circles.

The boat itself, Formula 322, built by Thunderbird Products Corp., bears the distinctive stamp of Race Driver-Designer Jim Wynne. In her cockpit is the customary steering wheel, dashboard, seats and cabin companionway, but instead of the bulky, raised engine boxes which usually cram fast powerboats, there is delightful emptiness. The uninformed passenger might suppose the new boat was powered by nothing but wishes.

Bolted neatly beneath her cockpit deck, however, there lies a comparatively tiny but power-packed turbine and water-jet propulsion system which—to boatmen accustomed to clanging pistons, erratic fuel and ignition hookups, dragging rudders and vulnerable propellers—is as good as any wish.

The engine itself is nothing new. It is the marine version of a United Aircraft turbine that has powered everything from buses, trucks, trains and helicopters to the racing cars Andy Granatelli entered in the Indianapolis 500. Called a free turbine, it is a distant cousin to the JT4 engines which propel commercial jets and bombers. Unlike diesel and gasoline piston engines, whose thirst for fuel increases with power and whose lives get shorter the longer they run at full bore, free turbines grow more economical and durable the harder they're pushed. In boats—where engines frequently run for long periods at full throttle—the advantages are obvious. Furthermore, so reliable are turbines that airlines have found they need tear down such engines only every' 12,000 hours or so instead of the every 4,000 hours demanded by piston engines. Indeed, the airplanes themselves are likely to wear out before their engines.

But the turbine power plant alone is not what makes the Thunderbird's boat such a potential dream-come-true; it is the combination of the turbine engine with a Pratt & Whitney water-jet propulsion system. The men aboard New York City's fireboats have long known that when you stand on deck and aim a high-pressure hose at a fire on shore, your boat tends to move back away from the blaze. The fireman's hose is nothing more than a water-jet propulsion unit, and the pump that pushes the water through it could be powered by a turbine.

In Thunderbird's new Formula 322, the turbine drives an efficient, compact rotary pump that spins at 2,100 rpm to suck up sea water from beneath the boat and spew it out of a nozzle at the stern with sufficient force to drive the 32-foot boat at more than 40 mph.

"We were worried at first that the thing would wash down other boats or docks that got in the way," says Wynne, "but we soon found we could aim the jet down far enough so as not to bother anyone."

To steer the boat, the driver aims the nozzle right or left and to reverse he lowers a metal deflector flap that shoots the stream forward underneath the hull, thus pushing the boat backward.

"A lot of engineering went into this boat," says Wynne, who designed the first successful turbine-powered ocean racer. "You don't just put a thing like that in there." The water-jet pump alone took Pratt & Whitney engineers three years to sort out, and when they mounted the first one in Formula 322 they weren't at all sure their tests in the lab at West Palm Beach had given them all the answers.

Says Project Engineer Carl Comolli, "We were afraid at the time we installed it in the boat that when the driver socked full power to it, the pump might cavitate [i.e., just open up a big air bubble] and not give thrust right away." It was also feared that the pump would stall or become powerless in high-speed turns. Worse, with the boat running in reverse, engineers were afraid the jet squirting back under the boat would cause turbulence in the water intake, starve the pump of water and thereby rob the boat of power.

Happily, however, all these fears were unrealized, and almost from the beginning pump and turbine ran smoothly, potently and with few hitches.

But the designers still worried that garbage, driftwood and other water-borne debris might be sucked into the pump to gum up the works. To find out they deliberately fed the pump a diet of hardwood plugs. It quickly swallowed the mess, apparently with considerable relish. Again, to satisfy the engineers that the pump wouldn't fly apart should the boat run aground, another experiment was performed in the lab. "We put tons of sand in it to see what would happen," cheerfully explains Dr. R. A. Schmidtke, P. & W.'s chief of research. "But instead of ruining the pump, the sand simply polished up its stainless-steel rotor."

Later, on the water, the pump sucked up a length of nylon rope. On a propeller-driven boat such an accident would have meant sending a diver overboard to cut it free. But not on Formula 322. Within the safe, dry confines of her spacious cockpit a crewman merely opened up an inspection plate, reached inside the pump and unwound the tightly turned coils of nylon.

So why don't all boatmen promptly scrap their diesels and their stern drives and buy a turbine-powered water jet? Well, for one thing, it will cost them around $40,000 for the turbine alone—a sizable price even for a wealthy yachtsman. "To the man who can afford the initial price and who can prorate the cost of a turbine over several years," says one Pratt & Whitney technician, "a turbine makes sense. But anyone who thinks they're just around the corner for the average boat owner is fooling himself."

Jim Wynne and Thunderbird President Dick Genth do not agree with this pessimistic appraisal. Says Genth, "Wait until they get this Vietnam thing straightened out and military contracts begin shrinking; then turbine builders will have to start thinking about the civilian market. Also, there'll be surplus helicopter and airplane turbines around. Besides, you've got to remember this engine's not that expensive. In ocean racing after nearly every race you've got to pull piston engines. You're talking about eight to 10 engines a season, and at $4,000 to $5,000 each, that adds up. For all intents and purposes, the cost of turbines is the same." Indeed, Wynne believes turbines will one day sell for less than diesels. Other Thunderbird engineers are even more optimistic, guessing they'll go for little more than gasoline engines.

The price still makes the turbine-powered runabout the boat of the future rather than the present, but Wynne believes that turbines now make possible—for those who can afford them—big yet extremely fast power yachts. "We simply couldn't do this with any other kind of engine because they'd fill up the boat, leaving no room for cabins, galley or any comfort," he says. "Fifty-footers used to do 20 knots in a pinch. With turbines we can move up the ladder to 35 or 40, yet not give up anything in the way of accommodations."

ST6 Powered Fountain
 

Hey

Here is a much newer boat with the ST6 turbines.

They must still be available someplace.

http://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/4540

Can you find that sleve of slides and to make it see?:cool:

wanna sell her yet?
mike stancombe
peppers racing

Greg,
Thanks for your post, I hope you can find some pics and anything to document this boats history. I really enjoyed talking to you and I am looking forward to meeting you and your brother Dave. By the way if I get this boat seaworthy some day, you and Dave are welcome to borrow it if you would like. I think that you guys really would really appreciate this boat for what it is and share it with your family and friends.
Dave, when I uploaded pics on to this site I had to upgrade my membership. My son showed me a different way also but I don't remember how he did it.
Any way post them if you can but I sure would like to see some originals in person, that would make my day!:food-smiley-007:
thanks
jim

Mike
How are you doing?
I think that I will keep this boat for quite awhile, I am getting real attached to it.
I have been thinking of selling the speedliner tunnel hull, it is a piece of history also, it is the last speedliner tunnel hull made. Since Bill Whiles pasted away and he was the designer and distributer I think this one is the last of the breed. If you are interested I will sell it for what I have in it, it is a cherry!
thanks
jim

Jim,

What's the latest? Pics?

Jay
thanks for asking!
I haven't done anything with it for quite awhile. I am hoping to get at it again this summer, I just have to many projects. I am going to sell some of my projects so I can move it up on the list.
How is your project going?
I guess I should take some more pics but it has not progressed much from the last pics. I am still looking for some st-6 turbines but they are hard to find for a reasonable amount.
jim

jim
would you be interrested in selling this? dad would like to finish and put the pt-6 back in her
Mike Stancombe

Are we going to have something interesting to see at the February 2010 ...Miami to Key west Race???

if he will sell it. we have the motors. dad wants the boat

Mike
Did you find st-6's or pt-6's? I have been looking pretty hard and have come up empty. Found some pt-6's but are not quite right, wrong gear ratio and exhaust is different. I would appreciate any leads on st-6's. I don't plan on selling it untill I have turbines in it and have been able to run it for awhile. I don't think I will ever run across something this special in my lifetime again so I better keep it and enjoy it. It is in a nice dry storage barn behind my house until I can find the right parts to restore it correctly, any help would be greatly appreciated. I have had several offers on this boat and have passed on them. I understand your interest, to bad they only built one!! This is truly the first unlimited race boat ever built, it was so far ahead of it's time it was like bringing a gun to a knife fight! Even when they made them detune the engines to less than half of their available horsepower it was still unbeatable. Ofcourse their are plenty of boats that would beat it now but none of them have the class that this boat has, she was and still is a sweet boat!!!
thanks
jim

gears are not hard to make for us.. dad wants the boat to run. we will take you for a ride. lol

Wow, just saw this thread, what a project what history. My hats off to you.

Armando

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7...fqy2owphix.jpg

thats a great picture Armando! sell that boat and get her back in the water now!!!!!! LOL i want to see it run.

A DVD copy of the race video has been made. It will be online shortly. David will get in touch with you to get you an original.

I am out in CO in a couple weeks. Maybe I can make it out your way.

Greg

anyone get the Maritime at Bayshore marina, Nassau??
 

Greg Thanks for the post!
I would really enjoy meeting you and your brother, If you can find time to visit please do!
To see a video of this boat in a race would be awesome. Is it painted or the original aluminum finish? What race, or at least I am assuming it is race footage is this video from?
jim

Sam Griffith Memorial Race Video
 

Jim

The video is of the 66 Sam Griffith Memorial Race. With Jim Wynn driver, Walt Walters navigator, and Hal Hartmann engineer. It is footage from a helicopter of the boat flying wave to wave from Miami to Fort Lauderdale then turning offshore as it passes the sinking Brave Moppie of Dick Bertram and the Moppie crew being picked up by Gardner in the Surfury.

Send your address to me at [email protected] and I will get the video sent to you.

My brother has started a boat company building small performance boats. The boats are inspired by Wynn designed boats. Watch for Hornet Marine.

Greg

greg
Got the video! I really enjoyed watching it! Bouncing to bimini with Jim Wyne narrating it gave me a lot better perspective of what it was like back in the day, looked like a heck of a ride! It was sad watching Brave Moopie go down, It looked like a pretty hard hit and then the engine started smoking.
I am looking forward to meeting you and dave. Thunderbird does'nt look like it did in the video, But it will someday soon. I have been talking to a person who has a couple of turbines rated at 850 hp each, that would be nice but don't know how that will work out yet.

when and were is hornet marine going to be anymore info on it i work in bristol at clean harbours and live in meriden bring back the old school race boats

Greg
Sent an e-mail to you and I didn't get a response, I was wondering if you got it?
Getting closer to getting some turbines for this thing. Still trying to figure out the best way to hook them up. Do you have any engineering drawings from your dads work on this?
thanks
jim

I came across a t-53-l-13 rated at 1400 hp. It looks great and reasonable price. I could use it with the arneson surface drives, I would have to figure out how to hook it all up. Any thoughts or suggestions from anyone?

Hey there T bird. Nice to hear you are moving along on the project. We are going to have to have an old race boat reunion. Mine is moving along nicely. http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/c...a-24-back.html
When you get a chance post some pix's. Love to see the progress.

Are they still having the HORBA historic boat race's?
I haven't been keeplng track of things lately, I keep thinking that it would be fun to be in a race like that. They may not let this boat race in it with the turbine engine, it would probably be baned like it was in its earlier days. It doesn't give a person alot of incentive to finish it if you have no place to show it off. Maybe we can start a traveling boat show?
If anybody has any suggestions on the correct way to install a turbine engine or places where I can find info would be great.
thanks
jim

There's allways http://www.turbinemarine.com/video_WB.html

But your Kids Inheritance will suffer :)

We would be able to help you install those engines. give me a call. Jim 520-245-2849. www.principlepropulsionsystems.com

I have second thoughts about installing a single t-53-l-13, verse's a pair of P&W's. Should I hold out for a pair of pratt&whitney's? Maybe I could trade my t-53 for some older pt-6's. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

When is the rematch my friend! For those who don't know the details of the 1966 Sam Griffith memorial race (Miami to Bimini and Back) it came down to Thunderbird and Jerry Langer's #10, the first magnum ever built.

I rebuilt Langer's #10 a couple years back, still have it down here in Miami. It came in second to thunderbird, but thunderbird was disqualified and Langer's #10 was declared the winner.

Here is a Time magazine link to the race along with a pic of #10 after hurricane wilma trashed it. The boat battered against a seawall for hours after it broke loose and still never sank. I picked the boat up after wilma when the owner was going to dispose of it.

An interesting design, built for some serious offshore battering. The thickest hand laid glass hull you will ever see, overbuilt beyond belief. The hull was still structurally solid as a rock. Everything else on the boat was completely trashed and it took a couple guys 6 months to redo it.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...5214-2,00.html


Here is a pic of #10 in 2008, back in bimini 42 years after she won the race. Note the vise grip that was used for steering after the wheel broke in rough seas heading over.

scanshift, first congratulations for having saved a historic boat of this sport.
But I think you're doing a bit of confusion between two boats of Jerry Langer.
In 1966 the Sam Griffith Memorial Langer with a pair of outboards came second after more than two hours from Jim Wynne Thunderbird turbines after a hard race with rough sea where the two came only to finish with Don Aronow third.
Then Wynne was disqualified even if the victory remained to him anyway. Controversial history.
But Langer was not on your Magnum, but with a smaller Deaco 20' with Davey Wilson.
With your Magnum 28' Langer races the year after in 1967 gaining a sixth place at the Miami-Nassau.
Have you a complete picture of the boat today?

1966 - Deaco 20'
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/3...e1966resiz.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

1967 - Magnum 28'
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1...1967aresiz.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I just took this pic. Thanks for the background. The prior owner somehow confused the 1966 #10 with the 1967 #10.

Was this the Bahamas 500 mile race that your picture was of?
If you get ever get down this way, I would like to meet you. Thanks.

Tornado, you are very close. The co-driver was Barry Cordingley. When the ballast tank broke, he crawled under the canvas deck, and rode "spread eagle" on top of the broken tank. Side note: The manufacturer of the boat was a bunch of Cuban boatbuilders who worked evenings to start their boat company. The company name, Deaco, is short for Dea cojones, which translates "By the sweat of my balls".

Awesome story. I hope you will finish this project the way you wanted to in the beginning. Keep up the good work. Will Mike Stancolm sell you his P&W Turbines?

Here is another curious story behind the names of boats and brands, as in the case of Donzi and Magnum.
Think when I was young( and very naive)I thought it was all serious.
However, for a bath-thub Titanic style the name could not be serious.:drink: