Long distance racing?
 

Just wondering why long distance racing disappeared? I got a Searace book this year and the distance races look like fun. I can understand the fan standpoint. Was it the cost? Did the boats get to fast? Did the 50 foot monsters kill it? Just with the race this summer with OSS I wonder if it could become something again.

Long distance point to point offshore racing was done for the pure glory and fun of it. The heros that were interested in racing for those reasons have passed on.

New racers who mistook the decline in boat racing in general had to have something to blame the decline on and they blamed it on the lack of spectator/venue issue and concocted the "sponsor and spectator friendly" beach course event.

The biggest problem with point to point racing is safety and logistics. Canopy boats require helicopter based divers for prompt driver extraction after an accident, lest the very hardware that protects you winds up locking you underwater.

Non canopy boats are much faster than the old days with the new drives, power, hulls, and props. This increases the probability of spins, barrel rolls, and other mechanisms which in many cases are not survivable or leads to injuries which are critical enough to necessitate immediate medical care and evacuation capability.

Back in the glory days of point to point racing average speeds rarely exceeded 50-60 mph in bigger seas than we encounter today.

T2x.

Jeez, T2rex, we had a rule called 'don't kill your f**kin' self'! It worked pretty good.................

Yeah for BROWNIE ! Offshore means OFFSHORE.

We are certainly going faster today,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Skill and Judgement still applies.......................

G

What year did the races disappear? I just remember watching offshore races in the mid 80s. (I was 11) In that era was that more of a hybrid of the distance races and what we have now?

We tried with OPA to run the old school race coarse in Point pleasant. A few years ago. Rich is correct. The Coast Guard would have nothing to do with granting a permit for a safety zone that large. My insurance guy, fell off his chair laughing. The other thing to consider is, I dont know of many race boats that carry that much fuel anymore.

Agreed......... But.......... The lawyers have taken over since then.

In fact, I think this is a lawyer:

:party-smiley-048:

Looks like Obama to me.................

What about increasing the length of the races to a min of 150 miles and for the big races 200 miles. The worlds should be 250, like they use to be in key west. And most important take them outside the reef on some long legs where someone might actually get lost. Take out the gps and give them a compass...Hell if they get lost its not like we wont find them....The racing they are doing now is for hydros, NOT offshore powerboat racing. Maybe point to point should be for select non points races. But please take them back offshore with longer races. Its not like we have better tv coverage or bigger sponsers now that they run in circles!!!!

Amen !
 

In the early days - Offshore Racing was a bunch of Wealthy people - creating their own challenge - No fancy "Show" support trucks, no Uniforms, No TV, not even a big prize. They raced for the fun of it - and it was TRUE offshore - Sure it was a Ego trip - and they could afford it - The so called "sport" has changed from who can safely navigate and get from point one to point two - to a Speed run - not considering the size or depth of waves now - As far as coast guard approval - I wonder if they approved and supported the Miami to NY runs - several of them - dont think so.

The Cats came to Off shore to say who is the fastest - and it slowly changed the races from True offshore, requiring a Compass, and stamina to a roundy round circle event like river racing in hydros - its not really Offshore now - its CLOSE TO SHORE.

When in Argentina in 1978 for the World Championship - the waves were so high - boats would disappear from sight and then climb up the next wave. AND that was from a HELICOPTER - that view - not from another race boat. now, THAT WAS OFFSHORE !



My, How Offshore has Changed -

just my two cents worth - am glad I was around to see what TRUE offshore racing was like - it was not just how fast you got from point A to B - it was can you get there at all - and can your equipment survive too. Black Flag an offshore race - ha - ask a European racer that raced in Gurensey or in Viareggio - they may have not been the fastest races - but they were true OFF SHORE RACES.

Phil M

Even though I did not start racing till the mid 80's, everything you said is sooo true!!!

It wasn't being the fastest, it was being able to out last and out navigate the other guy!!!

I have a dumb question, please don't beat me up, I just don't know enough as to why it is this way - what makes a race a race and not a poker run or a gentlemen's race?

If I went on here and said I'm running from Sandy Hook to AC at 10:00 Saturday morning anyone want to try and beat me there?

What are the legal/insurance problems with that? On the open ocean there are no speed limits like a highway where you can't "race each other". There are laws to hang you out to dry if you are "racing".

Is that crazy or could you bring back the good old days? We all know the "sport" is a loser money wise, unlike NHRA or NASCAR. Didn't we all do it back then for the glory, what stands in the way of doing that again?

nothing stands in the way!!! dumb one's are supposed to die, that is why everything is screwed up when dummies mess up now the hospitals save them, so they can go on to spread the fruit of their loins and propragate more dummies and on and on.

Well - today its MONEY MONEY MONEY - who has it - how much will they spend - how much will they lose - Ask Jerry Jacoby - he can tell you a lot - or many others - John Delia - some did it for fun - and glory - and how else not to leave it to your kids !

I see nothing stopping 5 to 10 people from organizing their own fun run - poker run - or race - - maybe even on a wild and windy day in the ocean - let them race at 50 miles an hour - over big seas - navigate far from land - Sure, it can be done - and probably will be done some day- too many people have tried to "professionalize" this (Exibition) sport - it just does not work - Boating has always been a money game - and Offshore or big boats all the more - ask anyone that has a Yacht - much less a high performance pleasure boat.

Things have evolved- and changed - but we still have the memories - no safety capsules - just stand up and take the wind and water - no jump suits - just shorts and a t shirt - so you can swim away. No sitting down and thinking you are a jet pilot - none of that.

I remember racing around Cape Cod - I had a bigger boat - 36 fot. Bertram - so i had to give the rest of the field a head start - did not matter - I knew when it would get rough - everyone would slow down - that was when the lenght of my boat counted. It was a one way trip - starting at the base, and racing all they way around the hook and back to the Canal - same with racing around Long Island sound - a ONE WAY trip ! even small boats did that then -

I was young and impressionable - when people like Bill Wishnick, Tony Azara - Tom Gentry - Willie Meyers - and many others raced - no jump suits then - that all changed when it became a circle racing circut - whats the expression for cars "if it dont go, chrome it" - cant figure out the expression to use on Offshore - guess just get a bigger rig (truck) - and fancy uniforms.

I have covered races with the Italians and other Europeans - I can tell you - they dont run a String of Pearls - meaning they dont run alone - they run in bunches - bow to bow - its real racing - it was I mean ! Here we just like to show and tell - get on the "race course" and run in circles - maybe we should limit the gasoline they can cary - and see who finishes or does not run out of gas - that might be more exciting -

We are lucky to have people like Charlie M. and Allen Brown - also people like Richie Powers - among many others that have been there and done it - they have experienced TRUE OFFSHORE RACING - we are lucky to hear their experiences too -

Just a quick example - I was in Viareggio filming for the Italians in 1992 - the race was canceled - I came back to Point Pleasant the next day for an event here - I saw Jack Stuteville - he asked me about the race - i told him it was canceled because of winds and waves - he asked was it blowing over the Sea Wall - i said No - was not that bad - he said - well - when we used to race there the water blew waves OVER the Sea wall - and they still raced - THAT was then - when Offshore was Offshore - now - thanks to the hydro racers we black flag a race when the sun does not shine.

some how - I wish the Cats never were allowed - many would probably be still alive at this time too - they would have run Big V bottoms to their limit - and their physical limits - now they race beyond their limits and ask why - Maybe its time to make new rules- and start the sport again - only this time - make it a ONE DESIGN race -meaning just V bottoms - let the Cats watch and live.

now to unwind ! have vented enough -

PHIL
[email protected]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...DE405B868DF1D3

Here is a race from new york to boston powerboat race.

Phil,

If you remember I was one of the people that started the Manufacturers "V" class in 1990. It was a good idea but like you said "ego's" get in the way and when cats start passing people it's time to get a cat.

Also, I think we need an insurance person here to answer a question. As I recall you pleasure boat polices are voided if your "racing" - what is racing?

On the roads, two cars that have pre-determined that they are going to race and are traveling above the speed limit - constitutes a "Race". That has a negative impact on you insurance wise and opens a whole can of worms regarding liability and possible criminal charges.

Do these things apply on the water (open areas) as well?

I'm not trying to start trouble with this, but what makes an open ocean event a race - organized buy a governing body, the fact that you advertise it as a "race", that you encourage spectators, that you have seregated lanes for operating in???? I just don't know the answer.

oldschoolfan -

That race is from 1916 and it goes back to my question, if I advertised a "get together" to do a run/race like that - is it veiwed as a race in the eyes of the Coast Gaurd & the insurance companies if no one sanctioned it and they were no prizes/ awards etc?

Seems like there's already an element to that in Poker Runs... I mean what's more interesting? They guy who has the best hand or the person who gets to the first card stop first?

Dude! Sweet!

I agree with that but when I read other threads here Poker Runs are having insurance trouble as well - how do get around that or why does it have to be insured?

I know this sounds basic but why do Poker Runs need insurance?

You know how it goes these days... If someone gets hurt, people employ the "dead cat" method trying to get compensated for their injuries... As in, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone who's going to get sued at a poker run whenever something goes wrong. Insurance is there to protect the company that puts on the poker run and the people who set up the company in the event that the plaintiff is able to "pierce the corporate veil" and go after the organizers personally.

A sense of personal responsibility (a dead concept) would go a LONG way to making motorsports of all kinds more viable and accessible.

And, it's my opinion that the 'not-races' you suggested probably go on every weekend all over... :D

Dude! Sweet!

You are 100% correct, I'm bored today so I'm not letting this die as I should!

How do you attrack people to a "non-race" and not have it be interpreted as a "race"

This is Food for Thouhgt - I feel the need to buy a race boat again coming on! Sorry, a non-race, race boat!

HA! Excellent, not only have I talked myself and one of my buddies into buying race boats (ah I mean "non-race" boats!) but I'm "enabling" people I don't even know! :D

I would think, that you'd have to have a smallish group of buddies you can trust to reduce the risk of getting burned if something goes wrong during a "non-race". All it takes is one MFer to screw everyone...

$h!t I guess I am almost a 100 years to late. I saw the date but still thought it was a cool article.

Back in the 70's we tried to get a permit to have a race out of Narragansett Bay, Rhode Island to Block Island and back....no dice..... the sailboaters tried to tar and feather us.

So, I called some of the guys from Mass that raced in Gloucester and Plymouth and told them I was going for a "cruise" on a particular day at a specific time. Lots of 27 and 28 foot Magnums and Cigarettes and of course banana boats.

Funny, but about 25 boats showed up to go cruising....of course nothing is secret, so the local water gestapo was waiting for us down the bay.

We started up the Providence River, by Gaspee Point (The first place the Americans revolted against Britain in 1775) and headed down into the bay......about 4 miles after the start, the bay divides into east and west passages around Conimicut Light.

There they were....the water gestapo...in their Boston Whalers with blue lights flashing. I was leading, and I led the fleet of "cruisers" right toward the gestapo, then about a mile before we got to their position, I steered off to the other passage and down we went toward the ocean with the whalers in hot pursuit.....no contest.

After the Block Island turn, we headed back up the Bay to an amusement park where we all gathered at the docks. The blue lights showed up. They were very upset and took names and driver licenses, and held us for over 4 hours.

Our story was airtight......

Quote......."Hey we are all friends and we went cruising together out to Block Island and then came back for some fun on the rides and to have clam cakes."

In the end they could do nothing.....a week later, I mailed out a bunch of "trophies" of the "Cruise"to the boats that placed.

Sometimes, you just have to go ahead and do it.

Charlie,

So, it could be done, that's one answer I was looking for.

Your right there is no law against assembling. Hell I guess if they can't stop people like PETA from protesting in a public street - what could they do to guys running their boats at WOT in the ocean.

I still would like to know legally, if someone sunk their boat or hit another boat God forebid during what you did or today - is their liability on your part - if so why? Also, does insurance look at the fact that group of boats was running together and call it a "race", which on most polices is excluded.

At big fishing tournaments I've been in we had a Bimini or shotgun start where all the boats line-up and throttle down at a scheduled time. This is racing to some degree, what happens if there is an accident and there are many close calls?

I guess I'm being anal about this for one reason, like Phil said racing today although certain people love it - I would rather have 3 men in a boat with a compass so I can get lost again for the up-tine time!!! If I could go back out and run sea bouys and such I would do it. My kids semi-like to watch clips of real-offshore, I put on today's racing and they go cool and get bored in oh 3 minutes - change the channel!

I hoping to maybe spark someone (maybe me) to figure out how we could do it "old school" and not have all the legal hassels.

I think their are enough people here who might want to do that?

Joe Gere

Joe:

I admire your resolve here. The last time this topic was seriously aired there was a plan to run a Miami-NY race acouple of years ago. It hasn't materialized yet and may be over ambitious. To your point, liability is accessed by the courts who have jurisdiction over a particular body of water. They will consider the evidence and, in cases of a boat collision or tragedy, bend over backward for the plaintiff or his heirs. At best its a crapshoot with the cards stacked against you. I wonder, however, what the rules are in the open ocean outside the territorial limits of a particular state or country? Maybe the old Bahamas 500 might make more sense?

Big picture , however, is insurance should be obtained and a sanction from a racing organization helps in that regard. You do need basic safety rules, hull inspection, etc....lest some idiot in a papermache flimsical creation disintegrates and requires a 3 day search at sea with resultant bad publicity. Sail boats race around the world and on various point to point courses in sanctioned events. Why can't powerboaters?

T2x

Okay guys.. We are working on this I just hate to telegraph things until we have a stronger position as I have been let down too many times in the past regarding boat racing. However we are going to make it work one day.

First we do want to sanction the events to offer legitimacy, press, sponsorship, etc. Additionally with all the lawyers at work at some point some where a person or entity made the phones calls, picked a time sent a secret message and we have enough exposure all ready so we need insurance.

Permits can be obtained. If you can speak the language and develop relationships along with strong pragmatic principals it can be done. The Coast Guard will always have a very difficult time saying you cannot have an organized pleasure boating event. They can stop a race but not a poker run or organized event. The details of this position are too long for me to type but you can always read 33CFR100 or call me and I can explain it. Let me clarify.... The Captain of the Port can do whatever he or she wants to protect the port zone. By definition it would be hard to stop an event. They have tried to stop mine and it put me in a very bad perdicament because at the time I was not retired and still a CG Officer but we got it done.

Individual insurance companies will determine if an incident which generated a claim on an organized boating event would be denied because of racing. Knowing what we know, (Alpha Males in HP boats) poker runs are not and will never be a race.
Say this at least three time… “THERE IS A SPEED LIMIT ON THE WATER!” Any navigable waterway both inland and international falls under the 72COLREGS convention. International regulations for prevention of collisions at sea. Rule #6 Safe speed must always be considered. I always message this because we never want a numerical value to be associated with safe speed. Whenever a new boater, news reporter, or legislator asks or says there is not speed limit we all stand up and shout oh yes there is, we know it, we follow it, and we preach it.

The safety issues are the biggest concern. We are working as I type this on a safety management system to provide the proper level of coverage for long offshore runs and endurance runs.
The sailing analogy is a great one. Not many air ambulance in the southern ocean. I have been in situations thousands of miles out in the pacific where minor medial complications become grave due to time/speed/distance.

BeSafe

Brad

Thanks for all of this great info guys! Charlie's comments and Joe's pushing have triggered an interesting through process... :D

Brad, your information is also very well thought out, clear and helpful! It's nice to see actual facts and a well written, unbiased discussion on the internet!

Thank you all, that's giving the answers I was looking for.

Brad, so you guys are looking at this already, that's good to know. Tell Tres - Hi, many years since I've seen him.

I didn't realize the speed limit as "safe speed", I learn something everyday!!!

So, I guess you'll keep us informed as you guys progress.

Thank you again,
Joe Gere

Long distance, endurance, point to point racing seems to be alive and well in Britain, at least for the 2008 season.

http://www.proprider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354

http://www.proprider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26

So Joe, what type of "non-race" boat are you thinking about? :D

This could open up a lot of wounds?

I'm not sure what kind, but would absolutely do a diesel boat again with an Arneson drive. Would most likely do a single engine, long and skinny. I always liked the little 32 Buzzi, was a great boat.

I have to go think about this now!

Why not a Buzzi drive on a Buzzi boat?

I'm not thinking 2008, I'm thinking 1989 when they were fixed and could not trim (I believe they do now, haven't checked). I need to remember my meds!

Also the steering was never very good with the rudder, the Arnesons we built just handled much better, again almost 20 years ago, things could have changed?

I also don't like the fact that you have to build onto the back of the boat to mount the drive. With an Arneson I can mount it to a convential transom, cheaper & easier.

I don't know if they still do it but always liked having my overdrive in the drop box rather than the trans.

Trans wise, I rather slip the trans than use a two speed, again simplier, cut pressure, slip, make boost, lock it up and go. I grant you 2 speed in better overall, but if I were to build something, I like less chances for failure.

That's me, never said I was the smartest guy!

How about very slender vessels? Can we run them?

I've got a soft spot in my heart for the big old CUV mono hulls (maybe a soft spot in my head?! :D ) as I've mentioned a million other places on this site... There are a couple of de-rigged surface drive diesel boats up on blocks over in Viareggio... And I'd heard Panatta's Thuraya might be for sale. Of course, those Lambo motors only parle italiano! :D

The CUV is a great boat, built for that, they probably had Isotta's or Baudouin in them. I like the smaller boats and less classes, 2 classes only - up to 32' and then up to 42' or 28' & 41'. It's offshore, it's endurance, it's not speed, it's finishing a 160 - 225 mile race.

My meds ran out last night, so!!!!

Dude, I will be a crew member with you for a NY to Miami run if that is what you are thinking. but if we will take mine I need a little time to prepare ha ha ha!. Gerat minds...........

My old man and his best friend did Lauderdale to Alex Bay in a 46 Sea Ray about 15 years ago. It's been on my mind ever since!

there is the real answer of why this is not possible, thanks t2x i was starting to think that i was the only one thinking that way