my fat slow boat has a similar issue, very hard to get the nose up and a bigger 4 blade only made it worse, I checked for a hook along the keel but didnt check the outer areas, ill do that tonight. What would be the cause of the extra stern lift other than the hook?

Once you get the bottom cleaned and new paint, try adding some ballast to the bilge to regain that lost weight after the repower and see how the boat reacts. Eliminate as much unneeded weight from the front of the boat as possible. I still say talk to Brett. I'm thinking properly pitched 3 X 3's with some cup will be the best props for the boat. But first things first and that is get that bottom cleaned up. If all that flaking is disturbing the water to the prop it can really screw up the performance of the boat and might help explain your high slip numbers.

I'll look into it thanks, and I'm in fresh also.

Your trailer bunks are causing a hook in the hull and basically acting like a lowered trim tab.
The trim tabs do not raise high enough and will be dragging at speed.
The rough bottom is creating a bunch of drag also.

All of these together are probably costing you between 5 and 10mph.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^i also noticed the bunks stop way short of the transom.this is a big no no and over time will cause quite a hook as griff said.this boat has a lot of things wrong that are killing the performance.

Don't see how the bunks are causing the hook, the hook is there from the manufacture. I have never liked the trailer (came with the boat). Its a cheap Load rite and the bunks were adjustable, and can hold a 32 footer or so. The old adjuster would move every time I took a trip.

Fabed the keel with 2 4x6's and taper cut them to about 20 degrees. Then made some adjusters out of some 1 inch bolt/Nut and moved them as far to the outer sides as I could manage. Would rather have kept the outer bunks on the inside so I could move the boat further forward, but it has 2 water intakes on the bottom (AC and Gen).

The issue using all the 4x4 on the sides and 4x6 on the keel doesn't allow much flex like if they were 2x6's. The limitation of flex could be what caused the crack on the port side.

Will look into the tab position and see what can be done

you are mistaken in your belief that a hook cannot be caused by the way a boat sits on the trailer,do some research on the subject,you might be shocked!

I can understand how a hull can be deformed by not sitting correctly on a trailer, but what your seeing in the pic below is pretty much how it comes from the factory. Both side are identical and only for the width of the tabs

http://forums.iboats.com/filedata/fe...9501&type=full

Agree. Forgot to mention the bunks are too short.

Still don't think it was the paint which kept me from getting anymore top end, and yes the trailer does not fit right and I need to fix it.

Thinking out loud; With the original power the factory hook was needed to keep the bow down. This boat came originally with a single 330HP 454 B3, 2.0 ratio. The 415HP 502 moved the boat much easier, but still needed slight bit of tab down to get it up easy. Started getting the prop slip and had the bow up using more trim. The factory hook is robbing power as before, but I'm reaching the max speed with the boat.

Now I have more power but cannot get anymore top end because the hook is now the problem. If this is the true problem how should it be fixed. From the pics below you can see the angle, the hook starts about a foot before the stern.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps0qyda4uv.jpg

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...psuuirddwt.jpg

Edit: forgot one thing, I don't think the tabs are all the way up. When cruising I have the port down a tad to keep the boat level, will verify later

Be careful on removing factory hook or "wedges". You could end up with a porpoising machine.

I've had my boat knocked off of plane and the motor rev to the limiter on more than one occasion by a small twig getting caught in the trim ram lines or jammed up between the anti-cavitation plate and rams. It takes very little disruption in clean water flow to have a big impact on performance.

Still in the suggestion phase right now, don't know what would be best.

Here is the area that goes from the about an inch deep to the back.
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...psdcguspam.jpg

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...psbgvoeiiw.jpg

Jack up a bit
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...psoy06f7nc.jpg

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...psywzl8ibn.jpg

Starboard side
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/t...psltzf431m.jpg

The flaking is basically on the outside edge, the inside surfaces look pretty good

With that much hook, you are fighting a losing battle. I have never seen that much hook on any boat.

I have the same built in tabs on a little 20' bow rider, using a high rake 4 blade its a bouncing betty at 25mph with no people in the boat... but at high speed the dam thing looks like a bass boat running down the river sitting on its tail riding very high in the water. Looking at that bottom im sure you will be pleased when you clean it up a gain of 5 mph is almost a given.... everything showing confirms to what your are experiencing. Just cut the bottom smooth with a orbital put a 3blade move some weight to the stern rake a quick test run and you might be very surprised.

Those look like built in wedges. If you remove them, you may find planing to be much more challenging and still not pick up speed. The PQ Legend has those, which is why it planes so fast and why it can hold plane at 12 mph. Much smaller boat, and probably doesn't need the wedges to plane, but the low planning speed is nice when you have kids.

There was a guy on here that removed the wedges from his Legend in a quest for speed. IIRC, he picked up around 2 mph on the top end. Then he dropped 700 hp in it, and still only went 75. Some hulls are fast, so will never be.

IMO, you need to get the bottom clean and smooth. I'd be surprised if you didn't pick up significant speed from that.

Crownline has those wedges in their hulls too (the older 225's, 248's, 266's). Years ago I remember seeing a thread (possibly on the Crownline forum) where Bob Llyod of Full Throttle Marine removed the wedges on a 225 and the results weren't as expected and he recommended not removing them.

http://www.formulaboatsforum.com/VBF...1&d=1424974590

Been there dreaming of a few mph hiding in bottom paint.. I shoulda had a handle bar stash and a funky hat because i felt like i was on mythbusters..... 0 gains from removing bottom paint that had a few layers and flakes in certain sections.


I also have the same hook in the back.

Polished, non waxed bottom showed nothing.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...83778352_o.jpg

I am dicking around with trying these Hill props but in the back of my mind I may still bolt on a Bravo 2 and same pitch I had before I did my repower to see where I really am. Key is to find a bravo 2 lower or even a later model good one without getting hurt too bad.

Received a response from Scott at Formula and tpenfiled (iboats thread) and agree these are wedges not hooks. Found out the method of blue printing the hull from Fun Times to remove the hook if there is one, but this would be a lot of work and I don't see the possibility of improvements. You know when I first put the boat in the water it had fresh paint and I doubt it all fell off on the first few runs.

That said, I'm looking into buying a new trailer for the boat which support it better and plan to do sanding and will see what happens new season

Edit: Oh my boat has never planed at 12mph, need to get it up to 28 or so to bring the bow over

28 to get on plane in a cruiser...OMG... I agree 12 is lo but most will get on or hold at 18-20. That may be why the wedges are on there. Starting to sound like Formula found the worst possible formula for hull design ever. Not bashing your boat.. Trust me I have had some boats that tested me to...lol..

Chris

No bashing taken, It's a heavy boat for its size. The 28 is to get it to go totally on plane, I can get it to go slower and not be all nose up, but all I'm doing is burning a lot more gas and putting out a large wake.

Aka heavy cruiser....i do a lot of boating on the Willamette river which a fairly narrow but deep (1/4 mile wide) river going thru Portland. It is absolutely humorus to watch some of the bigger boats heading out to the Columbia @ about 15mph, they kick a wake that's about 3-5 ft and rolls fairly good distance. Mean while the little runabout's come scooting down the river at about 30 and when they hit those roller's it something to watch...very reminiscent of a indy race pile up. Someday i will have to remind myself to make a vid...it's crazier than a boat ramp on the 4th of july..

Yep, and I'm one of the guys cussing those guys halfway on plane putting out those wakes. It get's really old. Not everyone can afford a 35-footer.

My Baja had the built in hooks in the back of the hull too. Had them sanded off, and gained little or no speed, and now have to drop the tabs a little more to keep from porpoising. Not drastic, but noticeable. I wouldn't bother.

We took a ride years back (Rinker) from Louisville to KY lake and down past the Tom Bixby water way to Pic Wick MS. Along the way in the narrows, found a old 50 or 60 foot cruiser coming toward use kick up a 3 foot roller. Slowed down and idled over it and as soon as we were past the wake the cruiser slowed down. Called to him on the radio and said thanks for the after thought, his response was "It was a for thought". What an jerk, meet them ever where you go

Ordered a new trailer from Loadmaster in Ohio, should fit much better.

My Sea Ray 268 Sundancer planes pretty easily at 17mph with a Mirage Plus prop. I am surprised this hull does not handle the same

Might have something to do with the 265 sundancer (5549) weights almost half what Formula 27PC (10000) does

I really enjoyed the project and followed along on another forum until you stopped updating. Interesting reading this one as I didn't see you express your frustrations over there, and I about crapped when I saw the dollar amount invested.

For some reason I can't see the dyno chart on my phone. What rpm is the 120hp gain? What Hp is it making at 5200 rpm? Your whole induction and cam were setup for low end power and torque...so did it only gain big down there? I apologize for not being able to see this answer on the chart myself...I just can't see or open any attachments.

I own a Superflow engine dyno and have been around all brands my whole life. It's a bad practice, but you can just change correction factor for the atmosphere and make the thing read whatever hp you want to see. I'm not suggesting that is what happened, but I know guys that do it LOL. Engine dyno room design, airflow, air quality and all sorts of things are extremely critical to getting repeatable results....even from one pull to the next. I'm sure it's a non-issue...I personally think the boat is running like it should.

Correct me if I'm being plain stupid here...but you have the same drive ratio, the same prop, and the same rpm......There is no reason to expect more mph. I know you tried the 26 and had slip (also wasn't that 5050 Rpm?) Still wondering why you aren't seeing mph after going back to the 24 is no mystery. If it won't turn more rpm then it isn't making more power. If it will turn more rpm and aren't allowing it to turn more, then it isn't going to go faster.

I don't know if your hull is different from the newer model...that would be a question for Formula. What I can tell you is that it isn't "maxed out" if it is the same. I think you are just out of horsepower...it's 500hp going 48mph in an 11,000 lb boat. You gained 2 mph. My 27PC with 600hp (assuming 600hp based on Mercs ratings) runs 50 mph with my family and a weekends worth of crap, I'm always full on fuel and water. They can be out back on the bench seat or asleep in the v-berth...still runs 50. Cold air in the fall I got another 2 mph. Point being...that's another 100hp over yours and 2-3 mph. The bottom of my boat is showroom clean every time it hits the water...if that's a factor. I had a bunch of guys on the boat at LOTO shootout and were running back after the race through the insane waves and even with all that weight we still ran 48-49. These boats were offered with 850hp and with the bigger engines they run into the 56-60 range. That's why I say the hull isn't limiting you...it's lack of hp to move this big boat. These are about the size of a 290 Sundancer.

The only thing throwing me off a little is the 28mph planing speed is just weird. Maybe the single engine is a much bigger factor than I think. My best fuel Econ is at 24 mph and the boat planes well under 20 without the tabs down. It's more comfortable to drive at 28-30, but that's scooting along on top of the water pretty good. That one was a mystery to me.


Best of luck. Just trying to play devils advocate.

Be careful hanging out on this site! It will make you broke!
You'll be shopping for a 38zr in no time lol. Good to see you over here.

I'm pretty sure that the comments made on the other forum is based on questions asked. I tried not to bring things up that bothered me unless comments/questions were made. I stopped updating because there were no more comments/questions. Yes the cost caught me off guard as well

Peek Torque 617 FtLb @ 3900 and HP 545 @5200
RPM FtLb HP
3500 580 387
3700 600 422
3900 617 458
4100 604 475
4300 594 487
4500 593 509
4700 586 524
4900 575 537
5100 560 544

According to Formula the 94 hull design has not changed over it's life time. Also asked if Formula would look at the data and just give me their thoughts, even willing to pay, but they declined. Note: looks like the 27PC is now gone for the 2016 line up.

Have been think about this for some time and in my own non-expert opinion, I think the issue comes down to weight and prop area. As you say your boat has 600HP and also has extra weight due to extra drive but this is offset because you have more prop surface area in the water. My guess would be your prop slip is much lower then mine. I have reached the max top end for one engine, the more HP that is thrown at it only creates more slip. If I went back to 24x3 blade pitch it would over rev. While the hull is not clean and does create drag, I don't see the hull causing the increased slip to point I'm at now.

So the boat does come out of the water much easier now, and sounds great but do miss being able to muffle it down on command. My take away is if you have a heavy boat you need more then one set of props to go faster

Ha ha I mostly just read. Maybe a new boat in a couple years.

Dodge they told me they only built 2 of these boats last year. You can buy a bigger boat for the 200-250k and its a little more than people want to tow. I don't mind towing it but I feel like you don't see a lot of "pocket cruisers" going down the road anymore.

maybe you are right on prop surface area, or maybe you aren't getting the nose up enough and are plowing. If I lower my bow down just a touch it makes a big difference, and even trimmed out right there is a lot of boat in the water.

At WOT I'm right on the edge of blowing the prop out and sinking the nose, tried all different variations with not much help. As before the transom rebuild and removing all the soaked wood and foam, it appeared the nose would come up a bit more, but not a lot. Also with the wet wood and foam the trim was not a touchy.

This season I plan to remove the anchor chain one more time and also bring along some friends to check out the differences. Will try each method one at a time and then with both.

Wouldn't mind trying a Bravo 2 just to see what it would do, but don't know if the drive could take the torque

Only other thing to try, doubt I'll do it, but epoxy in some starboard on each side of the hull from about amidships to the stern wedge on each side. Try to get rid of the rear wedge by adding a panel to tapper it out to nothing at amidships. This way if it turned into a porpoising machine it could be removed later, or if it worked it could be removed and a more permanent fix installed. As before, doubt I'll try just different ideas

I would remove the stock wedges and move your trim ram up about an inch. Even if they are level now, a boat normally rides with the stern down a bit. that stern down angle puts angle on the trim tabs even if all the way up. I dont relly understand the concept of having wedges when you have trim tabs.. If it porpuses then drop the tabs. I do think your lack of bow lift is the problem. Adding more power just pushes the bow down harder if you dont have the mechanical leverage. The B3 maybe adding to those problems by increasing your stern lift which is exactlly what you dont want.

Chris

I'm thinking a prop can only apply so much pressure to open/free water before it starts loosing (blowing it out the sides). If this was full hydraulics the motor would start bogging down from the load, but a prop does not have a confined space so the pressure exerted is lost to the sides instead of all going to the rear. Could take my B1 lower off my Rinker and try it, but not sure that would help

Don't want to remove the area of the wedge because that would take a lot of work and while I could do it, I would hate to have to put it back if it didn't work. Maybe if I lived in Louisville where my old boat buds are, I might give it more thought, but this is into the experiential stage. Just how much more money am I willing to put into a boat just to find out some answers. Would love to see the boat hit 60 mph, but don't think it's worth the trouble. Might think more about it more if someone could use the results for future designs, but who is building a heavy trailerable cruiser anymore. Searay and others build them but they are no where near the weight of the Formula

Start asking around about speeds from guys that bought the big blocks. Not sure how many are out there....not many. It takes over 800hp and 2 props for this hull to go 60

Figure of speech with the 60, and don't know of anyone ever that has tried to get gains out of this hull other then me

In runabout type boats, you are able to get plenty of bow lift with Bravo III drives running 3 X 3 prop sets. You will start lifting the stern running 4 x 3 or 4 x 4 prop sets. At lease this has been my experience. I can't see a Bravo I drive giving a bunch more bow lift over a Bravo III drive.

I would agree but if he has a bravo I drive on another boat he only has to source 1 prop to try it. I also agree the 3x3 would be better than 4x4

Chris

AllDodge....wanted to see if you had any progress or if you had tried to get more weight in the back to see if that helped?

I was able to hit my best on the GPS a couple weeks ago with 3 guys in the boat and full of fuel and water. I have anchor rope not chain. It feels like its really hard to get the bow to come up, so I can imagine it being tough for you with the weight of one engine. It ran just under 51 with the drives all the way down and tabs all the way up. I brought the drives up a little and that got me to 52, then put the tabs down a touch and ironically that got me the last mph teetering just over 53. I have never run without water and full fuel so I'm not sure if it would help or hurt. Its a very awkward hull to drive I think.

Have had discussions with a sharp guy here on OSO, would use screen name but don't know if it's OK (didn't ask). Had some discussions over the phone and online since last posting. Looking into some options to try, but need to get him some numbers.

Currently running 24x4 blade prop, with only straight flat numbers. Achieving 5000 rpm at 43 mph, so 24 percent slip. Water is warming up a bit but still have not attached my go-pro camera to have a look. Friend today looked over the stern going WOT and he says the cav plate is still under the water, not a lot but still under.

Plan is to attach the camera and run again without so many folks and get vid. Then put the 26x3 blades back on and try again.