Unlimited jd

iTrader: (5)

I wanted to do some ls manifolds, and if I remember correctly if I could pre sell 6 sets at an actual reasonable cost it would cover everything, the development, making the molds, casting 6 sets etc. shoot me an email and I'll see what we can come up with.
[email protected]

dunnitagain

Let Me Know what size tubing you are wanting to use inside and out . I'll see if my vendor has the capability with their bender. The movement of a piece of Stainless that has been
bent is unreal when it is heated during welding. Also I think the Flanges need to be remachined after the welding is Complete. Do you have a solid model of the head mounting surface?

When we Fabbed the Pans for the napcar engines , we would actually remachine the end caps , flanges and bolt holes after I welded them.
I welded them on a flat fixture made out of 1" Durabar CI to help hold dimension , and they would still bow the Fixture !!

red beard

hello,
new here,
very nice compilation of dmax facts, systems, accessories, i just read this entire thread, and feel like I got left out on a great conversation.
I started researching to install a duramax in my boat about a year ago. recently I bit the bullet and have paid Wagler to build me an internal balance, alternate firing order, 60% over injectors, engine.
my goal is to create between 500 and 600 hp continuous. I plan on coupling a Twin Disk 5075SC to it, at 1.77 to 1 reduction. this will then drive (through a ujointed driveshaft) a hamilton 36cm jet pump. the combination should be able to get about 20,000 lbs up and onto a plane in the 25knot range by itself. Along with the port and starboard 454 "wing motors" that should lift about 10,000 lbs a piece, the boat should get up and plane with about 15,000 lbs cargo on. The boat weighs about 25k empty. It does ok now with three MPFI 454's and three 10" pumps, but replacing the center with this dmax should make going on step more reliable. Kidturbo, how did your installation turn out? looks like thread went quiet about three months ago, you guys still out there?

just a glimps into my world, not much of what I do is normal.

900 feet of gillnet going up into less than 6" of water, and out to about 3' at about 30 knots
enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rToEzrmdBc

Have you guys checked out HiTek for marine exaust manifolds and up pipes? Pretty reasonable.

kidturbo

Hi Red Beard welcome to the OSO forum.

Guess I kinda put this thread on hold until our twin engine / twin turbo Duramax build caught caught up to where this one left off in cooling systems components. Then I got caught up assembling some drives and doing drive line rigging mock up on that build.
Link to that project is over here: http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/r...x-diesels.html

Since it has been 90 days, guess I should share a few updates.

Both of our 1000hp engines are assembled and setting on stands. One is being used to build the up pipes and fab turbo plumbing, The second is setting in my garage so I can finish wiring, plumbing, and mounting hardware work. That's where things got delayed. We chose to go with the rare Banks marine intakes on this build, and upon final assembly realized none of the OEM Duramax accessory mounts would fit. So have to build all new accessory mounting brackets from scratch that relocate the alternator and PS lower on the engine.

Between Christmas and New Years we mounted up a finished drive, began final mock up of the engine trans placement in the boat, and soon realized everything need to move forward 4" further than first estimates. Boat is being switched from a plug-in #6 to a drive-line style setup like your plan to do with the jet. So long story short, more hull modifications to the boat, and I've spent last few days designing front and rear steel plate mounts to fit Mercs offshore mounting hardware. While I've personally done the Bravo style engine mounts a couple times, no one had ever done an offshore front plate setup for the GM Duramax. But I have it in the computer for the next guy... lol

On the marine exhaust, I'm going in with another Duramax vendor and ordering a few sets of water cooled SS tubular headers with up pipes from a well known aftermarket fabricator. He's willing to give it a shot if we would commit to a minimum order. Price is very reasonable and should have first set ready in a few weeks if your interested. While I like the CMI manifolds for our twin turbo build, seriously, few would be willing to pay the price that Wagler and I put out for those "polished" manifolds. I've also been talking with the Banks team about releasing some of his cast aluminum manifolds that would be a direct OEM replacement for most builds. Hope to hear more on that option soon.

When your engine is getting closer to being ready let me know. I have the heavy marine Duramax flywheel that matches the internally balanced setup with ZF / Velvet drive damper pattern. Also make the electronics to plug-n-play these engines into a J1939 monitor or NMEA based chart plotters. HooDoo who posted on the previous page, has recently came up with a great charge cooler option to fit these engines if running in salt water. The last piece to building a complete conversion kit is the engine coolant heat exchanger, which I think we have nailed down also.

I think your 500-600hp goal is easily achievable if Jeremy chooses the right internals and turbo to match. I purchased two cams, and a pair of billet cranks from him last fall. So likely using most of the same pieces I'm running. Piston choice is my only concern. A buddy in CA decided to try forged piston in his new stroker marine build, they lasted less than 4 hours run time. He's on his backup engine while they rebuild that stroker. Oil cooled cast pistons remain the best option for marine until the Monotherms get released by Mahle later this spring. Then we can really cranks these puppies up...


P.S. After exploring the hi-tek website, I realized those are the same log style manifolds my friend ordered from a US company last year. After closer inspection, we decided the design was more restrictive than stock Dmax manifolds, so he sent them back. Bolt access / clearance is always a big issue in these designs. They crimped the primary tubes way down at the flange to allow access for bolts over the outer tube. So it creates a major restriction leaving the heads. CMI took a different approach and used much bigger tube, but now you can't use bolts in any of the holes. Requires studs with a 12pt small head nut on those. Neither design fits what I call a good compromise.

red beard

thank you,
and once again thank you for putting up such an informative thread that separates fact from fiction on every turn, and leaves whats in the middle up to the readers discretion, that can be a fine line sometimes... Bravo!

I saw those Banks aftercoolers, I will build my own, they will be part of the bottom of the aluminum vessel (keel coolers)- bring the hot to the source of the cold, rather than bring the cold to the source of the hot. glass half empty/ glass half full. Either way the transfer takes place, I am just not a fan of pumping water when I don't have to . throttle response is not a problem with a large air run, as I slowly lean into power, and slowly back out of it as well. I am not a fan of harboring yellow metal (like found in that Banks aftercooler) on an aluminum boat, as it tends to be toxic to everything. I understand it has 4x the thermal conductivity, but it is like cancer to aluminum, and zincs only mitigate the problem.

If I could stay 1-1 i would definitely have just gone with a beefed up 72 c or "liberty drive"? I believe they are called, but I need the reduction, which then puts me going to a SAE 11 1/2 driveplate and a TD 507 gear. you have a source for that flywheel? I am currently looking to have one built, but don't have anything nailed down yet.

I spoke with a banks guy this last fall that had headed the duramax project, he told me that they never did make any aluminum manifolds, and that the ones in the pictures were plastic for photo ops only, I had to really twist to get that much out of him. He said that a while ago they were getting close to making the real ones, but that the project is mothballed for juicier government contracts... if I read between the lines correctly, and I get it, go after the biggest chunk of meat first right!....

Those HiTek ones on the Dmax store's boat ,that i believe you speak of- are a little small. I spoke with the manufature of those, he claims they should would not be an issue till about 600 hp, but did not like their size either. He claims that on that first run of those that the customer was firm that they could not be any larger OD than the stock manifold for clearance issues (with a sister engine).I was told the set he is building for me today will be larger and have no smaller ID than 1.75" anywhere, like he wanted to build those first ones (Australian accent included). I talked with CMI as well, nice stuff, but expensive...same with a few other manifold builders i spoke with here in the us, expensive, like everything domestic and laborsome. I had opportunity to purchase a mostly marinized 2008 dmax from a gentelman who has another set of these smaller first run HiTek manifolds. He had allot of time into his build, and I would have had to redo almost everything for my application, hence no sale. It would be nice to get a group together to finance tooling up to have some sweet aluminum (manifold/up-pipe/t4pedistle ) packages made. hmmm know anybody that needs that?

I do have nema network on my vessel, and have seen the engine data pages lay dormant in my GPS as I now do not have engine data plugged in to it. thinking a cts or something like is what I should go with, also thinking about installing my previous engines senders into the new dmax and just keep the old school vdo. temp,voltage, and oil pressure guages that are in the dash today.


bummer to hear about those forged pistons- I had a conversation with someone a month or so ago regarding them, and it seemed like the benefits of them did not outweigh the inherent problems with them associated with startups, but I did not fully investigate, figured I would just leave it alone.

you plan on running glow plugs? how about intake air heater?

kidturbo

Sounds like you've done a good bit of homework into what's been tested so far.

I kinda like that charge cooler built into the aluminum keel idea, never seen that one before. And your correct, adding some tube length won't hurt spooling on a boat. Main thing is keeping the cooler core below the heads so condensation can't drain back into the engine once stopped. I know Jeremy likes putting his big coolers right on top the runners, but these ain't pulling trucks with a little ice box feeding it. I also heard Marine Diesel removed their coolers from top side. While the Banks unit is setting on top, it uses an up-flow design so condensation always drains back towards the inlet side.

When deciding to go with internal balanced billet cranks on these two engines I realized there was no matching marine flywheel options. Luckily I had access to the externally balanced flywheel off my old boat while it was apart for paint. Sent that over to a friend with a laser measuring scanner and 9 axis CNC machine. He milled out a pair from a chunk of billet steel, then my local engine machinist did the final balance checks. They weight in at around 75lbs. While not well documented on the Dmax forums, these engines will act weird and random misfire without enough inertia weight on them. So here is my zero balance design.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]564070[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]564071[/ATTACH]

On the electronics it all depends on what year ECM and harness you run. The older LLY engines did J1939 out of the box, so you could just plug a cheap display into the CanBus network and get most of the gauges on that. Then in late 06 with the LBZ GM removed that protocol option. Next year they changed things up again with the LMM and went to the new GMLAN high speed network protocol most vehicles use today. That is what I based these protocol gateways around. Basically converts GMLAN language into J1939 or N2k so chart plotters can read it. Opens up the display options to industrial and marine units, plus give you useful info like fuel burn rates. Screenshots and complete list of features over on Duramax Forum.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]564073[/ATTACH]

On the pistons, while attending the PRI show I spent some time talking with a engineer at Mahle. Showed him pics of my friends new forged piston damage and he concluded that it failed exactly where he expected. While forged will take higher pressure and heat for short periods, they can not dissipate the heat due to lack of oil cooling. Then I picked up a monotherm setting on their display and ask if it was for the Duramax. He explained that it was, and they had sent a few sets out for testing couple years ago but only got data back on one set. Due to lack of data they had tabled the design, but were actually going to begin a run in the spring to early summer. Monotherm are steel pistons with oil cooling passages under the dome like cast. I later spoke to the one person who tested them in a drag truck and returned them to Mahle when done. Here is side by side of the cast and monotherm for the Duramax.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]564074[/ATTACH]

On your question about glow plugs and intake heater. Most of us don't boat in the sub 50F temps so I tend to leave them out. These engines will start clear down into the 30's without them long as CR is like 16:1 or better. However since you fish in Alaska and probably be using the boat after some cold night, leave the glow plugs and controller on it. But you can ditch that air intake heater..

red beard

I like the looks of the billet flywheels, and have to say makes me a little jealous of your friends, mine murder fish and trees in volume. Did you target 75 lbs or is that just what it weighed when you were done removing the minimum? I will also have a short adapter spool that bolts onto the zero balance harmonic balancer that then accepts a 4bolt 1310 spicer flange this drives a small ujointed driveline that drives a pitts hstyle clutch,that drives a 4cube CV cesna hydraulic pump, so there is about an extra 10 pounds of swinging metal with the clutch off and about another 20 pounds swinging with the clutch on. Funny thing is I was thinking (just a shot from the hip) that the flywheel should be at least 40 lb?.
And do tell your source on the ring gear, as far as I knew GM doesn't sell it separate, and i have poked about a bit without any success elsewhere (aftermarket) trying to source that by itself with no luck. I notice the alignment dowel hole in the your zero balance, I will ask Jeremy what mine has, but does your internal balance crank have a dowl pin? alignment dowel kinda seems like a moot point at some level.
I will know allot more about the engine management electrical once i get to the dyno in a week or so, I have left much up to Jeremy, as far as providing a running engine.

kidturbo

I was actually shooting for over 80lbs on these flywheels.

My LLY setup in the original PPE boat never acted up once with a 65lb unit, but was still a bit more jerky at idle than I liked. I played with timing and torque limiting a good bit, which finally smoothed out the idle and shifting. Then my friend in CA used that PPE direct flywheel coupler setup into a six speed Allison trans like in the 23' Nordic. However he runs that into a ASD8 surface drive rather than a IMCO setup. His first noted issues were a random missfire and failures to rev up for no reason.

After cracking a piston on his stock internals engine, he had your typical 900hp bottom end built. Running compound turbos it was likely making around 750hp tops. Eight hours later that engine broke the crank. What was even stranger, the primary clutch drum in the trans was trashed with only 20-30hrs since a total rebuild. The drum showed signs of major clutch chatter. So he ditched the coupler setup and put a torque converter back in it. While a torque converter is pretty much useless in a boat, that added weight seems to have solved his missfire and rev issues. I'll add a pic of that drum soon as I locate it..

Around this same time I spoke with one of the Duramax air boat owners who had experienced similar missfire problems. His fix was a 100lb flywheel. Then a well known Dmax tuner told me about missfire issues noted on his engine dyno. Once again adding a big weight on rear solved it. While Dave's clutch drum issue may likely been related to no spring damper in the design, all the others shared that same no rev or misfire problem. Unlike an inline 6 diesel, the V8 Duramax has some serious harmonic issues. The whole AF cam deal was touted as a cure all to bad harmonics and broken cranks. That's disprovin now by multiple broken cranks running AF cams..

Moral here is, a heavier flywheel certainly helps dampen bad harmonics. There remains an issue with crank flex and failures linked to stock journal overlap design. All the billet crank manufactures are narrowing the rod journals to leave extra meat on the ends. Does it work? You, I, and a couple dozen other guinea pigs are about to find out... Adding a bunch of weight to the small end has only been tested on a few blower motor conversions. Some say It's more about the accessory load than weight. But seriously, anyone who says they know for certain what causes these cranks to snap is just blindly speculating. However since starting with a better crank material, modifying the journal width, moving the counter weights internal, and changing firing order is the norm, I feel my view on adding rotating mass sure couldn't hurt...

If you decide you want one of those flywheels, I can have it cut in a couple weeks. Cost is about $950 plus shipping.

red beard

yeah, sounds like i asked enough people to sift through the majority of the bullshxxx,

"However starting with a better crank material, modifying the journal width, moving the weights internal, changing firing order,"

this is exactly what i am doing, and even though with every fiber in my being, for the last 20 years, I have at nearly all cost- on every turn been driven to keep the vessel as light as possible, I kinda thought the flywheel would be a good place to put about 40 lbs ( a conservative wet thumb in the air). But it sounds like I should go a bit more at least. The flywheel i am having made today is in flux, as far as its finished dimensions. for a short while anyway. the solid-works will give the projected weight. thankyou for the synopsis that helps guide down a poor lit path.
a long time ago I was ASE master certified, and worked at a couple chevy dealers fixing the then new LT1 and LT5, 4L80E, electrronic 6.5's and all the other then new GM stuff. Then and since I have adhered to the fact that there is no set number of problems any one engine can have at any one time, (while you examine it). Many times failed parts are the result of a deeper problem. one that may not even be present at the time of inspection or "repair".
This miss you speak off- are we talking about a dead hole, or we talking about a hole that fires at the wrong time? and the no rev- are we talking lagging rev, or a non responsive throttle? How many of these setups that displayed these problems had keyed cranks up front?
Just think for a moment how incredibly violent a hard misfire must be to the crankshaft, and if a guy looks at the tourque moments at that instant, one might argue that a very heavy flywheel could be counterproductive to crank health- for that instant of misfire. So one might suppose the heavy flywheel eliminates the problem... but it may just be making it unnoticable. the source of the misfire may be the source of the crank issue. Why misfire? think that reluctor wheel is shivering about? Think that the harmonic balancer might not be adequet?
Hmmm lots to think about, and less to know for sure each day.

The drive plate people I am going with wanted me to provide my Mass Elastic Data for the engine and gear(transmission), he said they can run a 2 Mass TVA to determine what drive plate to put in-between the flywheel and gear (transmission). You ever get into that stuff?

kidturbo

I'm not sure all of the engines reporting these random misfire issue had keyed cranks. I do know the one that my friend Dave broke was keyed. Mark at Danville, who has that extra 90lb on the dyno flywheel, most likely keys all his cranks. Operating both a chassis and engine dyno, this showed when same engines ran fine on chassis setup but wouldn't rev on the engine dyno.

Maybe it's related to timing and crank position on the diesel trying to spin the engine backwards for a couple ms before passing TDC. I know some guys who measured these harmonics with very precise instruments once. It's only a big problem at certain RPM's and loads. Hence reason just as many bone stock trucks have snapped cranks as fueled up 1000hp racers. I call it the 00 roulette theory. Your odds of landing there are pretty low when compared to playing red or black. But every so often a guy places a huge bet and lands on it. Is known for certain these cranks are actually flexing heavily between the mains, that motion equates to a rhythm, where you get a drone sound and feel it as some have reported. Maybe all that's needed is a tach with multiple red lines. RPM's where not to run these engines.. lol

While taking a tour of Callies [where yours and my new cranks are from] I learnd they also build Merc's along with some other marine engine. Here is the Billet Dmax cranks in semi-raw form.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]564116[/ATTACH]

These cranks are double keyed from factory, but your damper only has one keyway cut. I had my ATI damper flange cut for a second key just to add strength because it's spinning the Hardin 3 stage water pumps. I would suggest the same mod if driving a hydraulic pump off the snout.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]564118[/ATTACH]

For a spring damper on big side, I drilled the flywheels for the old tried N true 1200 Merc units. But ones from Mike @ MDC "drive-guardian". His have little better looking heat treated springs and higher grade steel. Haven't put power to them yet, but is my preferred design for feeding onto transmission shafts with big torque. Old PPE boat had rubber XR damper which held up to a Bravo drive at least..

[ATTACH=CONFIG]564117[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]564119[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]564120[/ATTACH]