Donzi 22 Classic in boat wakes
 

Spent the first weekend, on our lake (when it was busy) in my recently purchased 2004 Anniversary Edition 22 Classic. The boat has the 496 Mag (non-HO) with a bravo One (26P) 4 blade prop.(I've been told that's really not the right prop for this boat).
My question concerns operation in boat wake conditions.
First of all, the boat handles great in moderate 1-2 ft wind driven chop, The problem is, my particular lake becomes infested with boat wakes from all directions on the weekend.
The boat runs 65-67 with the current prop, but I'm not able (brave enough) to run it anywhere near that speed in boat wake conditions....The boat gets scary squirrely,and seems downright dangerous. It seems to have the most trouble when hitting a boat wake at approx.a 45 degree angle......Hitting them straight on is much less of a problem.
My solution last weekend was to run it with the drive all the way down as well as the tabs down. In that configuration it handles fine, but limits the top speed to around 58-59 mph.
I've owned boats all my life, including two deep V perfornance boats (albeit both were 24 footers), so I've got a fair amount of experience. Never had a problem running wide open, whenever I felt like it, with either boat. The 22 Classic seems to handle more like a 20' checkmate outboard I had years ago, than a deep V I/O....I'm only talking in boat wakes, of course.
In researching these boats before my purchase, I found nothing that would indicate the instability I'm experiencing in heavy wake conditions, so I'm wondering, am I doing something wrong?? Could the prop I'm using be a contributing factor? Am I expecting too much of this hull?
I took my wife out Saturday, now she won't even ride in in unless I keep it under 50!! not good..
This is a relatively small lake (12 miles long), with very few large hulled boats. Most are in the 16'-21' range, so I'm not talking cruiser wakes here.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Mark

Sounds like you have to start driving the boat. A lot of wheel movement to keep the bottom of the v straight down in the wake of roller and even short bigger chop. Almost working the wheel as you go up and over to keep the deck level. You can get pretty busy behind the wheel.

Less * into wakes makes the waves closer together.

A shorter boat won't bridge the waves like a longer one will, thus more falling in between than riding the tops.

Weight and hull design are always factors too.

Need to be quicker with the wheel and trim before you go to hit waves.

I've been on similar sizzed boats (20-22) that handle worse than yours with waves....schit, jet ski's will bounce them around. Closer you get these to 90* to hitting the boat waves, of course is better.

Understood, but difficult to do when your hitting crisscrossing wakes from all directions, as we often get where I'm at.

A 22' hull with a 7' beam and 24 degree deadrise is a "drivers boat" at high speed. I remember reading a test article on a 22 with a 500efi and the pro driver said it was too much power for that hull. So, what you are experiencing is not unexpected for that boat. I would say slow down, trim down and approach any uneven conditions cautiously. At speed and trimmed out there isn't a lot of hull in the water. I believe the keel actually a bit rounded so that will also make it feel "loose" when running fast.

There are guys with 22's that run flat out with big horsepower, etc. But they have helmets on!

:poopoo:

Kind of figured that, but just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

Mark

Cut up closer to the 90 than the 45, but realize the boat is 3600lbs roughly...not a heavy boat, she'll leave the water at every chance she gets. Stay on plane and you should cut across the wave tops, less pounding and a smoother ride.

Try setting the drive neutral and making the adjustments with the tabs. I was taught to do that and it made a sizeable difference. Setup helps, what kind of steering and tabs? The B1 shouldnt be a bad prop for the hull, though I dont know about the pitch.

Drive in neutral trim, then play with your tabs a little. I like that. ^^^^^

Trimming in and dropping tabs isn't the answer. As you proved, it kills the top end and the boat is plowing. Plowing is comfortable with a deep v in the chop but puts unnecessary stress on hull, engine and terrible fuel economy.

Love the Donzi 22, keep going and play around a bit more. Maybe your wife is right, until you're more familiar with the individual quirks of the boat. Get used to hitting the wakes at 50 before you start hitting them at 60.

You've had some good boating experience but no two boats are quite the same and Donzis have an excellent reputation. Get used to your Classic slowly, I'm sure you will be happy.

RR

I have the similar situation. 21ft superboat with a 509 efi. I run a labbed bravo 28p. It is a handful. I don't know where your trim switch is,but adding it to the wheel is a must. I moved mine from the dash to the wheel. Keeping 2 hands on the wheel while trimming is a big plus.

Props can make a big difference on this boat. There are a couple DONZI websites that discuss individual props. I would also consider a full hydraulic steering system.At your speeds some would say it may not be necessary. If you want to run hard in rough conditions, I would want it and it should make it handle much better. At a minimum, make certain there is no play in the gimbal or steering system. A small amount of play can have dramatic effects.

The boat has the steering system that came standard with the boat.,As far as the tabs go, not sure what brand, but they are approx 8-10" long, open on the back, and a 90 degree up angle on the sides.....Nothing fancy.

Loved my 22 (1987 502. xr) for the look but as described its a drivers boat..

In my quest for top mph... I Tried 4 blade bravos but always went back to 3 blade to reduce the bite and roll instability with throttling (went from a 26p 4 blade to a 25P non-plus). lost 2 mph but i could let the wife drive it after that.

As far as cruising if the drive is to for down or in and you lift off throttle to fast you can put her in a lean either way that will make quartering wakes seems scary.

Trick is to run smooooooth with throttles in crossing quartering and standard head wakes and limit your choping of the throttle.. so it wont feel as if its going to roll on its side and pitch you out..

Ahhh the best looking boats some times can be the most challenging.. .. Enjoy the learning you will soon forget how difficult the curve was.
Post some pics

Running the tabs all the way down and the drive all the way isn't ideal either; as you risk stuffing the front end of the boat; doing damage and potentially hurting someone.

1) You really need someone to show you how to run a performance style boat. You can't learn that from a forum. Do you have any friends that have these style boats?
2) Consider taking the Tres Martin Course, or perhaps even contracting his partner Brad to come up and spend a day with you on the boat.
http://www.performanceboatschool.com...hp/instructors
3) When it comes to these style and size boats, you can't just point it in the direction you want to go. You really do have to "drive it". Look for the smooth water ahead, and steer the boat to the smooth water. Don't just keep the steering wheel pinned straight.

Or as Clint said, "A man's got to know his (and his boat's) limitations."

what lake are you on just out of curiosity?

does the drive wobble at all? My boat has some wobble that hopefully I am eliminating going to dual ram full hyrdaulic steering and much better tabs.

are you rocking side to side or nose to tail? this vid is side to side..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PoeXjbdn9I

4th Lake, near Old Forge, NY

Very little wobble. If I trim it out too far, it starts to chin walk a bit, but at that point it's already reached top speed and is overtrimmed.

Bring it down to lake George Maybe we can Johnny saris to get behind the wheel to give your boat the once over

The Bravo 1 prop is very popular on this model. I run a 30p. As noted, in rough water run the drive at neutral and use the tabs to keep the boat running flat. This is a 22' boat that can handle some big water but it does have limitations. I have to go minimal planing speed on the mixed up week-end waters of Lake St. Clair. Ditto with Western Lake Erie when it's kicking up. Now if you have evenly spaced waves that make sense it can usually handle it pretty well; Just beware of the rogue wave or hole. Get full hydraulic steering if running in this kind of water.

Thanks for the advice.
The boat handles great in wind driven (evenly spaced) waves of reasonable size.
Sounds like I'm going to have to save any high speed runs for during the week or in the morning on weekends, before it gets crazy.

Yep. I'm a week-day boater. Leaving right now for Lake St. Clair and going to run the St. Clair River up into Lake Huron.

Back from an awesome day on Lake Huron in the 22 Donzi. :)

http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/x...psdtdcw2qh.jpg

I've tested a bunch of props and don't like the B1 on these type hulls unless lab'd/altered for increased bow lift. I've experienced too much stern lift and the handling goes to chit.
I run a 4 blade Merc Rev 4 25p RH on my 502 powered 22' Classic. Have also run the 25p Merc Mirage that came with the boat from the factory and the best 3 blade I tested was a Turbo 1.
Any 22' boat will have it's limitations in large waves. I've found you need to simply slow down in 3-4 foot boat wakes. As others have mentioned neutral drive trim an tabs does help...

Oh, and Yes, I save the WOT runs for during the week. Hit 71 on GPS 76 on Speedo with full fuel, full cooler, and 4 big boys on board last night...

I have a lot of seat time in a 22 classic. I had a supercharged 454 that ran 80 mph. As said multiple times already, its a drivers boat above 50-60 mph, keep the drive neutral in rough conditions and just drag the tabs a bit to keep the nose down but do not bury them. The boat is designed to run into the waves and does not like a 45 degree approach. Whenever possible, 90 degree it. Washing machine conditions unfortunately suck and there isn't much you can do. However, if you let the water dictate your running speed and don't try and over run it, it will take some pretty nasty slop.

Congrats on the boat purchase. I love the Anni Editions. I have one myself. I hated the B1 prop on my boat for the same reasons Pat said. Carl loves his, but his is labbed so it'll handle differently than stock. I never tried the Rev4, because I needed one larger than they make. I tried a B1, Hydromotive Q4, Mirage+ and Tempest+. The 3 blades were by far the better prop for my boat. The Mirage and Tempest were very similar but I experienced blow out with the Mirage and never had that issue with the Tempest. What worked for me, may not work the same for you though. I have more HP than stock, so need a bigger prop. A smaller pitch prop may handle differently.
No two boats handle the same, so try as many types of props as you can. A narrow beam, 24deg hull is going to be a handful. My 56 yr old cousin, who's owned nothing but hi performance boats and has been on the water since birth, severely struggled to drive my boat.

I probably shouldn't bring this up, but to help a fellow Donzite out, I'll swallow my pride (once again :picard1:) and post a link to my 1st experience with the 22C.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthre...in-the-new-22C
Try not to ridicule me too much. I'd never had an outdrive boat or used tabs before. :lolhit:

I've been driving stern drives, a V drive 4 point hydro (beismeyer) and outboards for 40 years and have never experienced a boat so "complicated" to drive. I own and fly an amphibious seaplane that's parked next to it........the airplane is a walk in the park on the water compared to my 22.

Tried the recommendation of running neutral trim and tabs while cruising which seems to help. I'm going to try a different prop and see how that goes.
One thing I learned is that the boat doesn't like running with low fuel. The gauge is totally inaccurate. Shows 3/4 full with only 15 gallons on board. With 1/4 showing on the gauge, we headed home Saturday.......10 minutes later we were out of gas....Luckily right out in front of our place. I put 5 gallons in, figuring I'd see what the top end would be very lightly loaded. In a 4" chop the boat was completely uncontrollable above 60, no matter how much I "drove" it.
Filled it up at the marina and it was a totally different boat, and able to run wide open with no problems.

Great re-read from the past, Glenn! I can't believe how many people dissed the Bravo 1 on that thread. Now it seems to be rather popular on the 22 C. My boat feels very dialed in with a 30p BBlades labbed Bravo 1.

The expression 'drivers boat' is taking on a new meaning. Sounds like a 'driver' needs to be skilled with throttle, wheel, tabs, and drive adjustments simultaneously while still having one hand free to scratch his big set of onions!

I bet after a few more outings you'll look back on this thread and laugh. Enjoy your lovely Donzi.

RR

Very much a driver's boat my friend. I cannot let anyone else drive my boat. It likes constant tweaks of trim and tab while underway. And also throttle when running off-shore; Must concentrate and read the water at speed. That's one thing that makes it so fun to drive is because of the skill involved.

The trim tabs are Lenco Edge Mount....I believe they were, and still are standard equipment on the 22. I see Lenco makes a combination switch/indicator for the tabs, but due to the switch location, I don't think you can see the indicator. It sure would be nice to know the position of the tabs, since they seem so critical to the operation of this boat.

Mark

You got that right...
I've got K-Planes and it doesn't take much adjustment to heel the boat over...
Haven't done much research lately if there are indicators that would be easy to add on...

I just received my new prop......Turbo One 25P.
Supposedly this "should" help with some of the erratic handling characteristics I'm experiencing.
I'll report back after I get a chance to test it this weekend, although it's hard to believe a different prop will make that much of a difference in the way the boat handles.

Mark

I added heads up indicators to my lenco;s using trimsticks indicators. I really wasn't that difficult or expensive.

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The turbo creates bow lift, the bravo creates stern lift! You'll need the stern planted at speed in interesting water with that hull! I've had both didn't care for the bravo, seemed a bit unstable, You don't want to bow steer! I think you'll like the turbo, I drive mine like a torpedo now, through almost anything of course nobody goes with me anymore, but it's one fun beast !!!!

The 25p Turbo 1 worked well on my boat when I tested.
Vary similar to my 25p Merc Mirage non-plus that came with the boat; turned a little higher rpm at WOT.

I have a 2001 with a ton of mods, including a 540 Potter motor. The boat can haul the mail, and I don't scare my wife in it, ever.

A couple of thoughts from reading all of this. You are going the right direction for a stock power boat with a three blade. I like the Precsion stuff. If you can find one to test, some like the Hydro Quad 4 for slightly better handling than a three blade. The Hydro does not lift the stern like the Bravo One does in stock form.

Then check some things. Check your gimbal. Check your skeg. Check your steering. Check your motor mounts. Check your stringers around the engine bay. And most important, check the mounting alignment of your drive to the transom, or have someone do it. Believe it or not, some of these boats left the factory with the drive mounted slightly off or crooked to the bottom of the boat. Everything tightened up really helps. And I tend to focus on trim first, tabs second, on this vintage of Classic.

My two cents. These things take some time to master, but are a complete hoot for those with patience.

So I ran the boat all weekend with the Turbo One 25p. Definitely an improvement overall. Performance wise, the boat accelerates to top speed quicker and is a couple MPH faster on top end.
I've found that above 40 MPH I can trim it between a quarter and half way up, and raise the tabs most of the way, while keeping the boat stable and comfortable.......So in this regard I agree with the advice that's been given, that the boat takes time to learn how to drive.
What I'm still uncomfortable with is running wide open when there are any amount of boat wakes present. In order to reach top speed, I need the tabs all the way up, and the trim about half way up. In this configuration, very little of the hull is in the water, and the nose is riding high. As long as I hit wakes perpendicular, the boat "skips" over the wakes, but hitting them at an angle or parallel is downright scary and IMO, dangerous. Most of the time, wakes come out of nowhere, especially at or near top speed. Others have suggested hitting them at a 90, but that's just not possible most of the time. You simply have no control over the contact angle when you have wakes coming in all directions.
My solution is when there's little traffic....Go fast. The rest of the time, just cruise.I really do like the boat, just have to accept it's limitations.
The boat only has 120 hours since new so it's unlikely anything has gotten worn out in the steering system....I will check it out though.

Mark