Dry Sump Bravos
 

I saw a thread in the Pantera forum with photos of a bravo that was converted to dry sump. XR upper with imco lower. The drive had a DPM decal on the side. Any info????

It's not dry sump. It's conected to an oilcooler with an oilfilter and oilpump.
I'll tell Tomas to explain more!


Mange

You do know it's perfectly legal to post in the Pantera forum even if you own a Cig right?! :D

The DPM stands for Dick's Performance Marine and is operated by Mr Dick Tryce aka Mr Gadgets here on OSO.

The idea of the drive is to circulate the oil in the upper. The pump sucks the oil from the lower fitting and sprays it back in the top. I will use a 12x2" oil cooler and an oil filter to keep the oil clean of metal particles.

Looks like the story is out.. :) Thank You Tomas for the plug. The oil is actually taken from the lower and is returned to the teeth on the pinion gear in the upper, to help lube and cool the gears.

Dick

No its not!

Hey Dick -

Great idea. I assume youve been getting some great life out of gears with this set up.


When you get a chance, email me at:

[email protected]

I'd like to ask you a few things.

Thank you,

Kirk

Yes of course it is!:p :D My mistake!

Thanks guys. My first boat was a 24 Pantera. I really like the idea.

My IMCO Extreme SC has been plumbed that way for a while.... ;)

Blue,
Are you using a similar input and output arrangement?

Hi Dick,

Out the left side of the upper case, and in the right side... NOT through the top...

Goes from the drive to a fluid reservoir, to a pump, to the cooler, then back to the drive... Not sure if it is like DPM... Could be, as it was a drive used by Drew Marine, for prototyping... Temps went from 280 degrees to 180.

I am also looking into installing a thermostat after the repower...

Rich

Dry Sump IMCO
 

This is the drive. It was plumbed this way on the Advantage in the pic before I bought it for my repower.

Hope that helps,

R

How would the temp vary, i.e. why are you looking into installing a thermostat. I have a thermostat with the prefered temp range that I'm thinking of adding later on.

Rich,
It is hard to see where the Out is on the case. Do you have a better pic of it?

Dick

looks like a drive shower.

Dick,

The out is on the port vertical upper case, and the return is on the starboard side..

It looks like the opposite of this pic in which you can see the return.

As far as it "looking" like a shower.... :Whatever:

Clear as day to me... Then again, maybe it is a shower...! Just oil instead of water, and couple of hydraulic lines to move the oil around...... :cool-smiley-011:

R

Rich,
Mine differs in the fact that it draws lube from the lower and injects it right on the pinion gear teeth.

Maybe Strip was looking at the hose going to the cap?

Dick,

Mine works in a similar manner. It goes to a tank from the pressure side, then to a pump, then to a cooler, then to the drive, and is sprayed at presssure on the pinion gear, then down to the lower, and up to the out fitting, and cycles all over again..

Strip could have seen the shower and gotten confused.. However, for me, it's as clear as day... I have a shower, which has a braided hose, and then there are 2 high pressure BLACK hoses for the drive cooler visible in several pics.

Anyway, like I said, clear as day in the pics I posted..

Tom,

just like on a car, boat, plane, etc.. When you first start, the oil will be cold, until it gets up to temperature. I do not want cold oil all the time on the gears. Oil has an operating temp range that is optimum. My thermostat will be in this range.. I want to control the efficiency, and aviod oil that is too cold, or too hot on the drives..

Hope that helps,

R

The oil returning from the cooler, isn't going to 'spray' anything. The upper gears are totaly imersed in oil. The cooler only cools the oil. A drive shower doesn't do schit to cool oil, only to keep the upper case clean, thats it. I have a drive oil temp gage instaled last fall and did some testing with a simrex drive shower and without. NO DIFFERENCE in oil temp.

The current cooler offered is from Drew marine, and I personaly think its a GREAT product that I want to buy and add to my setup. I have spoken to Drew Marine an length about their system and am impressed.

Here is the link http://www.drewmarine.com/products/c...coolswirl.html

A little pricy, but if it lowers the oil temps by over 100 degrees, I think that really helps the oil, and the drive stay intact.

Jeff,

Can you explain why the gears would not be sprayed? I would just LOVE to hear this... You must be studying that new branch of physics..

As far as the drew comment, may be you should read the entire post..

[QUOTE=Blue242;2563709]Jeff,

Can you explain why the gears would not be sprayed? I would just LOVE to hear this... QUOTE]


Maybe you should enlighten us all on how a gear can be "sprayed" when it is completely submerged in oil??

I guess its a oil inlet then.I guess it has a oil passage over to the pinion gear side were it sprays it?

I wonder if a dry sump tank like for engine oil that seperates the air out of the oil would help also?

Strip,

You are now on to the path.. That is how it will work.. Except, that the tank may have to be pressurized, and not vented...

Jeff,

It will take too much time to explain line pressure, restrictor sizing for flow rate, spray pattern etc.

Hint,

If there is a bleed off, the gears will no longer be covered in oil, as the oil is no longer there in the same volume is was before the bleed off..

Ask Strip, maybe he can enlighten you...

My day's too short, :cool-smiley-027:

R

What ya say Strip, wanna explain to me why adding a drive cooler such as the Drew Marine product that the upper case is now not full of oil? Cause thats not what Drew Marine tells me.

Drew Marine wants the cooler mounted higher than the drive, and states that along with the ooler, the drive now has increased oil capacity. I can only asume the increased oil capacity is in the cooler and lines. Therfore, the upper is still completly incased.

But hey, carry on with the thread.

Dick, where are the pics of your setup? I'm a bit confused, now.

Griswald,
The thread started out as a reference to a post in the Pantera boat forum. That is where the pic of the drive I built for Tomas is. It shows how I plumbed it.
Not sure a gear whizing at 6krpm, even with it submerged, will have oil around it. I point the return line right at the gear teeth. The pump I use is suppose to make 50psi. I have not tested it yet to verify it. I first set this up on a drive that was subject to 1400hp. And although it was only run for a short period, the drive lived for what the customer stated was 15 hard passes. And witnesses watched his idea of hard passes for two summers, he very seldom babied his boat! I do know that when I opened the filter there was a lot of metal in the folds! So I am not going to make claims. Just what I saw on that setup.

I just finished a new drive for my boat and added a system so I can do some testing. Problem is the 1100hp motor I was going to build has been side lined at present. So my testing will be limited, until I hit the loto and can build the Procharged motor.
As Drew's system has shown, I expect my setup to bring down oil temps, as well as filter the metal out that is produced by the Bravo drive. Long term will it solve all the Bravo problems, No! But I see it as an added plus when running higher hp setups.

Jeff, I just had a customer run his boat without his Simrek drive shower and the next weekend with it. He saw 50* reduction in drive oil temp. So for him it works... Not that I am comparing apples to apples, just repeating what I was told.

Rich I was trying to see where the input to the drive is on your setup to verify it is sprayed at the pinion gear. My attempt at it, was to get an oil spray directly as the teeth are meshing. My thinking it is that the heat that is produced is caused by the grinding of the teeth as they mesh. Spraying cool oil at that point would help gear life. Just my thoughts on it..

Dick

Dick,

You are right in your assumption. With the gears spinning, the oil will fly off. I did not want to give the farm away, but yes, if you size the restrictor properly, and use the 50psi pump, it will most certainly spray the oil at pressure onto the gears. This will help keep the wear down, as well as keep the gears cool as you theorized. Just like a rear end cooler on a speedway car..

My idea of a tank adds more capacity to the system than just a quart (if that much) in the lines.. Of course, it should also have a filter....

Keep up the good work.. And, there are other pumps than Tilton as you know...

There are some other things that can be done to the gears, to control friction, and wear...... But, I am still exploring...

R

Kinsler makes a tank I think is called a expansion tank?? for the fuel injection motors, I have a buddy that used it on his drag 2.5 I think it was around 70-100psi,It would let the air bubbles separate in the tank, it had a bunch of plates/baffles in it ,it was about 2 gal,they claimed it helped in not sending aerated fuel to the Weldon pump. I wonder if the same idea could be use on the out drive oil,just a thought:D

Kinsler Vapor Recovery tanks ( VST ) if plumbed correctly is only seeing 3-5 psi. It is fed by a small feeder low psi pump, and has a return from the motor. It has a 3 psi restrictor that keeps low psi in the tank, and returns the excess to the fuel tank. The idea is to keep low psi on the inlet side of the high pressure fuel pump.... as pulling vacuum on the fuel can actually cause it to vaporise in the fuel line... on our 11000 RPM motors... a little air for even a few tenths will destroy a 20k motor.

RT.... oh and I don't think that tank will take much more than 15psi!.

thanks for clearing that up:D

Rich,
I have been cryo treating gears for a while now. I have a set of tungsten treated gears in my new lower, we'll see if that helps. Right now I have about 300hrs on the gears in my old drive, so I need more power to properly test all this.
Who makes the pump that Drew uses? It looked to me like a Mallory fuel pump, but just guessing..

Dick

I asume he had a drive oil temp right? What power was he running? Maybe my 700+ hp is more than a shower can help.

Keep up the good work, your testing is great to read, is non bias, and helps us all.

As for the gears being imersed in oil, I'll agree to disagree for now. Till I'm proven wrong, and I hope you do just that... ! :-)

Isnt that the purpose of moving the sump? so the gears wouldnt be immersed in oil, thereby making them spin more freely and the oil spinning off. I'm not sure what your not getting. By creating a drain down low to pull/let the oil back, it stops the immersion and stores excess fluid in a recovery tank, where it is then sprayed directly on the gears. That's my interpretation of it.

Jeff,
The boat is a 36" Apache, with twin 850hp vortech motors. He has a gauge on the dash that tells him temp. Probe is in the top plug hole..
Broke the shower, ran it any way and when he put the shower back on.. he saw 50*. Now our water temps are only approaching 50* here.. so that helps too.

Just a guess here but :

1) As stated with the gears spinning Oil naturally wants to spin outward and away from the gears.

2) Pressure is going to try and escape via venting into the reserve bottle.

3) Not only is submeresed oil flung away from the top gear but I would guess all the airiated oil is sitting at the top too ??

Meaning poor lubrication anyways.............

4) So I would guess to see a couple gains by Mr. Gadget's set-up.

A) The gear is actually getting good clean oil and guaranteed oil

B) I think the oil temp is dropping cause it's continually being pulled from the lower case. And with the lower case being completely buried in the water your cooling is free with constant oil turn over.

Just my guess..................is all

Jon

Hi Dick,

I am looking into the Cryo process, and a few other things.. One I like is DLC, but I am not sure how it will work on the gear teeth. I know the Cryo is supposed to alter the molecular structure somewhat.

On the other hand, if the enemy is friction and wear, then maybe that should be addressed.. DLC is used on valves, cams, lifters, and other high wear, low friction desired environments.

DLC is Diamond Like Carbon in case you were wondering..

Now as far as the other things about the oil and the flinging, I'm not gonna explain centrifugal theory again..

I think you might want to ask the Cryo people if the gears become more brittle when altered, or if how the elasticity of the metal is altered... I would be curious about that as well, so if you get an answer, please let me know..

Thanks, :D

R

Jon,
The cooling is caused by the 2"x12" oil cooler that is in line with the pump and filter. That will hold the lube temp down to a point where the oil can do it's job under extreme conditions. When you see lube temps of 250 and higher, the protection is not very good. The filter will take the metal particles out of the equation and help protect the tapered bearings that are preloaded. I constantly find the races dented from schrapnel (sp). I also think with cooler cleaner oil, you can go longer between lube changes. Swap out a filter and put a quart in it and go again. Cut open the filter and see what is happening inside the drive.
All the parts and pieces add up in a hurry, but I do think it is worth while in certain situations. If you run for long periods or have big power, it has to help.

Dick

Drive Cooler
 

Very cool thread!!! I just had to chime in...

BIllet Marine has also experimented with Cryo treatments and oil coolers. I have always wanted to build a true "dry sump" Bravo but have never had the time...

I think that the idea of cool, clean oil being introduced up top would be a HUGE benefit. We developed our water cooled Billet topcap for the same reasons. (Not a drive shower, more like a cooler or heat sink...although it dumps water just like a shower)

We have showed that even a 50 degree drop in oil temperature, in the top of a Bravo, makes a huge difference in longevity. Remember, the top gear (Reverse in a R/H and drive in a L/H) is "above the oil line" Splash lubricated...
As the upper gears turn, splash lubrication of "hot, upper end oil" is really all that a Bravo can offer. (And the hottest bearings in the drive are often the pinion bearings)

Can't wait to see what comes next...
Curtis @ Billetmarine.com

Rich,
I have looked into the DLC and one company suggested a differnt process. Saying the DLC was not optimal. I currently have a set coated in their Tungsten process, which they seem to think will solve all our problems.. :)
I have a polishing process done after the cryo. The cryo is not suppose to hurt in any way. And so far I have not seen it happen. I have probably 40 sets of upper and lower gears out and have only seen one major failure. And I have seen the same failure in several untreated gears.
One problem I think I am seeing is that the quality control of the gears from Merc, is very bad. I have been told by gear experts that their heat treat is all wrong. And the gear shape has deteriorated over the last couple of years. Gear lash is a joke nowadays, where before they were pretty good.

I hate to have to reinvent the wheel.. I would like to just sell the Imco SCX to everyone and not have to rebuild drives. That would make my life much easier.. :)

Dick

Curtis,
I have considered draining half the oil out of my drive and trying that, but first I have to put the new drive on and run it and see how it works out. Would be neat to mount a cam inside the drive and see what is happening. I have run one with the back cap off at an idle and you can see the "natural oil flow from the lower to the pinion bearings.. Kinda cool!

If all goes well, maybe I will get brave and drain some out, at the end of the summer, see if the boat goes faster.. :)

Dick