My experience was the same. Customer service is 50% of the equation for me.

Are you referring to the drive oils?

Im guessing no after my conversation with him yesterday

Im gonna try out this new oil of Johns this weekend. I bought a drive from him and he also sent this oil for me to try so I m looking forward to reporting back about it.

I know John has different lowers and strengthening in them now but I m sure in the future we will all see a huge jump in this product.

Single engine, and the deep pockets for drives was getting old fast. My typical life span with any of the stuff out has been around 2 hours before needing, at the very least, all new upper and lower gears. We had no way to pinpoint what was letting go first. Last time around it was a total annihilation of practically every component in the drive. Imco lower case had a 5-6" vertical crack running parallel to the vertical shaft, the propshaft splines twisted at the gear end about a full spline, clutch shaft twisted apart, lower gears destroyed, upper gears destroyed, upper pinion bearing impacted and seized, forward gear fused to the clutch cone. The only 2 components I could use again if I wanted to are the upper case and vertical shaft. I did go ahead and purchase a bmax for the desert storm poker run. But before I spew the results of my trip, lemme back up a moment. About a month before the poker run, i found 2 hurt cylinders in the old motor. I decided to go ahead and finish building the new combo I had been working on. The old combo was 505 cubes with a hydraulic roller, merlin heads, and a huge procharger. The problem woith the old motor was bottom end torque- it didnt have any until 2300 when it came into boost very violently. That motor made right at 1700hp and 1200 ft lbs, and ran to 6400 before the cam ran out of space... at 32 lbs of boost. The new combo is 582ci with a very well prepped 23 degree head, a lil more compression, a solid roller with a much more aggressive profile, and the same huge procharger. This motor made 2389 on c16, and 1470 on 91 octane pump gas. Actually made more power than I was hoping for or expecting for that matter, but Im not one to detune anything... use it if you got it. The boat is a 1988 scarab excel 28. Weighs in at 6000 lbs full of fuel, with 2 people on board. My best mph before the bmax was 121.3. That was with a 35 pitch maximus and a 1.5 ratio xr with all imco parts. I went to havasu for the poker run and managed at run a full day, make it back to the marina under its own power, and squeeze out 3 solid pulls in cleaner water... 128, 131, 133.7. This is the first time I have ever been able to get into the throttle and keep in it for any amount of time. The tune I had for the poker run was a mid boost tune. I ran it on 110 octane, which was good for just shy of 2100 on the dyno. The drive setup for desert storm is geared with a 1.30 drive ratio and a 34 pitch maximus that i had labbed for blade strength, not rpm. I ran this combo to 6100 before I lost the balls to keep the sticks up anymore. If anyone here cares to get into any details any further, ill be more than happy to discuss every aspect of this build with them. Im not here to hijack this thread, but merely to share my experience with this drive and the bravo shop. My first day in havasu I had a small hiccup with the drive, which was a product of my own doing. I needed a little more prop clearance at the cav plate, and after discussing it with John, I took a grinder to the cav plate and made a dimple. In doing this, I managed to loosen the upwards cav plate bolt, which during break in, backed out and wiped out a prop and bent the propshaft. At 7am the next morning, John showed up at my house with a brand new propshaft and a smile. He swapped that shaft out with me, and than clearanced that cav plate to where he felt it was safe to run. I have not found this type of customer service and loyalty from any other company that I have ever dealt with for any type of product. I am thoroughly looking forward to running this drive some more, just to see how much punishment it will really take. When the time comes for repair, I am actually looking forward to dealing with John some more. I dont know what he did to make this thing live, but he did. If anyone feels that I am being untruthful in any way here, I welcome you to come to Vegas and take a ride in this thing... i suggest you bring a box of pampers with you.

Glenn 702-604-5206 if there are any questions to be asked, feel free to call me or pm me here.

Also feel its worth mentioning- John has some pretty cool pictures taken in Havasu of the slight damage done by my expanding maximus. We found out together that those props arent rated for very much power... I think we measured the deflection at just under an inch outwards, and just under an inch forwards...

All you charge is a box of pampers for a ride in that thing? - $hit ... I'm in!! LOL!!! Thanks for sharing

lvrepoman, I have felt your pain with all the bravo band aid tactics. i still cannot figure out why my 509 m3 procharged 27 Baja Boss eats bravos for lunch. tried all the cryod gear thick floor, steel tower, bull chit and still destroyes upper gears. Iam runnin 7lbs boost and i treat the drive with respect never air it out and gentle on the stick. i think the combo of trim and acceleration is the problem. any insight will be appreciated.

It destroys them because your motor probably makes it's torque in your cruise rpm range. Combine that with the crap oil offered by Mercruiser, AMSOIL and others and you've got your answer.
Oil separating from the gear surface causing metal to metal contact.
You're a prime candidate for some good oil.

I use royal purple gear lube. Jason i think you are correct about the rpm range and torque, do you think if i swaped the 30 bravo prop to a 28 it would decrease the load on the drive? and raise the rpms out of that danger zone.

No, I don't think that would help at all.

What would you do?

Pacalim- Jason is exactly right. These procharged motors don't make power like roots blower motors. Hp is directly proportionate to rpm like a naturally aspirated motor, as where positive displacement blowers make more bottom end torque. You'll notice on your boost gauge at cruise speeds that your probably always under at least some boost. I cruise at 70 at 3-4 lbs, and any throttle input from there is extremely responsive. This isn't good for drives. My best suggestion is to a) check your coupler. If your driveshaft won't slide in and out of the splines very smoothly, it will bind under trim conditions and put a load on the pinion bearing pack. B) if your using merc oil, change it every time you run the boat and check for metal. C) stop using merc oil, it's garbage. D) if you can't spend the money on an aftermarket drive, buy the good parts and talk to some of the builders about assembly technique. There are lots of tricks that can be done to prolong the life, but ultimately, xr drives are on borrowed time if you have any kind of power. Just my 2 cents boss.

In my experience, royal purple was too slippery. I had clutch engagement issues with it. Are you running a 4 or 5 blade prop? What's your propshaft depth? If you want good oil, call John at the bravo shop and buy his neo oil. It works well so far as I can tell. I put some under a microscope today, and it's all still together. Merc oil separates under heavy load- it's called shearing, it physically separates the oil from itself and loses it's lubricity and film strength. Drive oil is meant to be a cushion between the gear teeth, as well as a lubricant. Your prop pitch is practically irrelevant. You want the motor to run smoothly in it's powerband without lugging the motor. Lugging causes detonation, and I can theorize that it causes more load on the drive, but I can't stand by that.

Im running a 4 blade bravo 30 prop and a -2 Imco shortie lower.On a drive with xr top cap cryod X gears thick floor, steel tower. my drive failures useally occur right after a wot pull. seems like not much happening in last inch or two of throttle. no noticeable speed gain or rpm change. just a broken drive as i limp it back to the marina. thinking about SCX

Who has the best price on gears? Thanks, Patrick

Uppers, lowers?

Ok, what is the consensus on drive oil? I have a Bravo in a light boat and 350 hp or so. With any luck, i will need to get some drive oil in it soon.

Sounds like you're over propped if you're not seeing much happening in the last inch or two of throttle.

Torque loading the drive will cause bravo failures. Prop as high as you safely can with a bravo style drive, it'll help it live longer.

Pacalim- is your motor carb or efi?

It's so good Jesus turned it into wine. :party-smiley-004:

My motor is mpi 509 m3 SC 730 hp

Panther, what do you mean by prop as high as you can?

Your drive is blowing up because it is either set up wrong, poor oil quality or the new XR gears are failure prone as is claimed by many. I too have a 27 foot Baja except I have 350 hp more than you do, I used the max worx upgrades in my drive and assembled it myself, including the same xr upper gears you are running except my upper gears are going on 8 years old. I ran 700-750 hp for 2 years on them, 950 hp for 3 years and now have ran my 1050 hp set-up with a little time with my 1115 hp pulley going on its 3rd year this season. I have more than 300 hours on my upper gear set and I think it might be closer to 350 hours. I run a 30 pitch labbed prop and can easily turn it to 6200 rpms, I have spun a 32 labbed to 6000 also. I am not saying I haven't broken parts or been in my drive, I just haven't broken or chewed up the upper gears since 2004. I tear it down every 20-30 hours and inspect it, I drain the oil every 10-15 hours or at least I was before switching to a external oil pump with a cooler and filter last season. I holeshot my boat after I get it moving and drive it like a drag boat sometimes so I am not that easy on it by any means either. I have entertained the thought of a B-max but uppers has never been the problem on my boat, it has always been lower gears and as far as I know they still use a bravo lower gear. My lower 1.50 ratio gears would last 50-100 hours before they would start coming apart when I had 700-750 hp, when I went up to 950 hp this dropped down to 10-15 hours. I experimented with various heat treating, dlc coatings , cryo finishing and iso rem polishing of the lower gears. Between the cryo and iso treatment and getting away from the garbage royal purple I was using to something better I was able to get closer to 40-60 hours out of a lower gear set and that is at my current power level-1050-1100 hp.
I am definately going to try the NEO oil , I love these drive threads and the new info that comes out, Smitty

I used royal purple when I was experimenting with different things on the lower gears as mentioned in my previous post-heat treating, dlc coating, cryo, iso rem and when I finally quit using it and switched to something better (amsoil severe gear w/lucas additive mixed in) my lower gear life doubled, I think Royal purple gear oil is GARBAGE!

Turn as many rpms as you safely can with your engine if you're running big power thru a bravo drive. It can't handle the torque, especially at 4-5000 rpms where most drives tend to blow up. (near peak torque in most engines.)

I've learned the hard way over the years... But now I've been running the BMax since 2007 with much less maintenance or issues than a Bravo.

What does a 5 gallon pail of the this new oil cost?

It's $100 a gallon, and it smells horrid- so you know it's gotta be good, lol.

:eek::eek::eek:

Who makes it?

Neo, and I thought it smelled like roses........:lolhit:

NEO oil in Cali blends it for the Bravo Shop. I don't think they sell it direct to the public, I think that particular blend has to be purchased from the Bravo Shop- but I'm not sure.

I'll say... I'm paying $130 for Amsoil 5 gal marine severe duty.

IMO, the cost of the oil becomes irrelevant when it keeps the gears from going metal to metal and causing thousands of dollars in damage. If we can spend $100 per oil change, and save $2500 in parts and repair- it only makes financial sense to me to pay the $100. All it takes is 1 tooth to chip, then it snowballs inside the case... I'll post pics of my last teardown. Not to say oil alone would keep that from happening in my application, but for most people- it all happens in the same order. In my case, it just happens faster and more severely... Lose a lower gear, it sheds a tooth, the tooth binds between other teeth, the bearing and shaft get forced to the side, the case cracks, the motor is still spinning- so then you move the damage upwards, the coupler splits, wipes out the clutch shaft or clutch- or both, then the upper gears move out of alignment, then the uppers gears bind, and then the tower blows out. On my lucky days, it stops at the coupler. On my not so lucky days, the coupler lives while the clutch shaft comes apart- and then I'm replacing everything. This was a 2 hour from new occurrence for me everytime. But hey, no big deal right? If you buy 10 sets of lower gears at a time, most places will give you a great deal on them!

Reading this makes me wanna go back to my stock HP 500 Baja 27 .....

Lol, maybe the safest bet- but honestly, how much fun would that be? I also have a rock stock Hallet 300t with twin 454 mags- driving it sucks away my will to live... Keep an eye on the minor details and enjoy your boat with the extra power. You'll find a rhythm that your boat likes in the way you drive it and maintain it. Once you get there, you'll be ok.

I will keep a watchful eye out for the rhythm, have not found it yet...

With that train of thought, if I were blowing drives up that often and running that much power I would skip any of the bravo style drives and put an Arneson or #6 on the boat.:drink:

It doesn't take long breaking a Bravo to have spent the money to convert to an Arneson. Especially given they're about $20-$25k complete with transmission and hardware.

Until someone can prove to me there's a worthwhile difference which would justify the almost 5x cost difference between the Neo and the Amsoil, I think I'll stick to the 'cheap' stuff and just take some of that savings and put it towards changing the fluid a little more often.




No doubt!!! I cant imagine running 900+ hp engines and wasting time and money on bravo based drives! Switching to 6's or Arneson's before the first bravo is even shredded is a no brainer IMO...