You don't like it when I am sarcastic like you? I seem to remember you posting pics on SOS of #6 gears so you already know the answer to your question. Do you hide who you are on here because you do not advertise on OSO???

Its all good

The whole reason we all use OSO is for fun and there is no bad blood. Just lots of laughs as if we were tied up in a cove somewhere!

Look at when I joined oso back in 05, I bought Bravo Shop last year so yes it was a big plan to have the name of the lake I live at be a secret screen name for the bravo shop. And I have never posted a pic on here. And I have never had a #6 drive lower gear set or have I seen a #6 gear set. I don't hide how many times in this thread alone did someone post my name and #? I haven't seen your info on here!

But only you would now this for sure as you are the all knowing and all seeing.
Its all good it's people like you that keep me looking at this forum. Just the plain truth is boring, thats why we watch TV and go to movies.
If your are in KW next month look me up I will buy you a beer!

I can see a problem with this plan, everyone in KW will be named offshorexcursion, pm me a secret code word.LOL

i can understand everybody's point of view...i am just worried,since im in the market for an xr/xz,that option is still not enough for my needs:27pq,496/whipple (approx 640hp)...with the size/value of my boat,i have to rule out the expensive alternatives (arneson,konrad,bmax,etc)...what is left for me?....xr?

An xr will hold up for awhile.

Your case would be a good candidate to slowly upgrade a xr with better parts as your budget allows. Nothing wrong with doing it that way just not as good as just buying a scx, bmax, arneson etc.

You could have mr gadgets, bravo shop, all american drive, or max machine upgrade your xr or xz good enough to last a couple seasons. Good oil like amsoil severe gear or neo will help. Plus driving smart.

I think Offshoreexc's suggestion is pretty good. One thing I've read about here on OSO from others, but not something I have any personal experience with though is, that Mr. Gadets (DIck) is very good at setting up XR drives so all tolerances ect. are 110% correct. From what I understand, that should help the drives live quite a bit longer as well. I also remember something about XZ gears being used.

Dick, please corret me if I'm way off and my memory is wrong, just something I remember to have read awhile back.

Offshoreexcursion- I live a simple, yet hectic life. I make money, and I spend it. I work all day, and sometimes all night to earn my keep, and when time allows, I recreate. I come home to my rather small house, on my acre of land located on the outskirts of my town and look at my old boat. With all that said, I'm not brightest bulb in the box- but I'm not dense either. I'm not a millionaire, but I do ok with my humble business. As much as I'd like to own a bigger, newer boat with the baddest power and propulsion package available- I have other more important priorities. So I make do with what I have. My old boat is pretty cool, I've spent a lot of time turning into something unique to me. I've also done a lot of research, and had to do a lot of my own work and testing. We as humans, learn from our mistakes to better out futures. Ask the first man to start a fire if it burned him when he touched it, then ask him if he touched it again afterwards. I've made my share of mistakes, and I've tried to learn from all of them. I've broken more than my fair share of inferior parts, and I've figured out how or why most of them broke. The problem within is that if I could afford the best to begin with, I wouldnt have had to suffer the bravo blues like everyone else reading this forum right now. Get on the Outerlimits forum and ask if those guys know anything about bravo problems- I'm sure that unless they have owned a bravo powered boat prior, they'll have no idea. However, if you ask that same group about #6 problems- I'm sure you'll start another thread that looks remarkably similar to every bravo thread herein. Fact of the matter is, there is no bulletproof drive. Anything that moves can wear. Anytime you introduce moving parts to each other, you start a course to it's end. Let's face some facts here, before you decide it's tasteful to be "sarcastic" with people here...

Arneson drives do have few moving parts, and they've been proven to be hell for strong. But what about the weak link? I don't hear anyone talking about the transmission used with the arneson bravo conversion? What about the setup issues? What about the prop issues? I say this with sincerity because I dont know. I have never used one, nor do I personally know anyone that has. How would that drive perform on my single engine v-hull at the speeds I've already been? And the big argument I see here, what about the cost? I don't know how much the kit is, because everytime I ask- I get a different answer. I've seen you argue the point that a complete bravo setup is comparable in price... If you start from ground zero, that is true. I don't know about you, but when I bought my boat it was turn key with a bravo drive on it. I didn't have the luxury of knowledge, nor the luxury of purchasing a brand new boat and being able to choose my power and drive options.

Xr gears are too small for huge power, your right... But that's not the only reason these drives fail. A #6 drive isn't stronger just because the gears are larger- but because of the rigidity of the package. The gear is only incrementally stronger due to size, but largely stringer due to the support provided on both sides of the gears by the use of dual vertical shafts to help reduce the side loads inflicted upon the gears. If you do a capita comparison of strength versus mass, the #6 should live forever with 1000hp if a bravo can live with the same for a while, or it should be able to live for a while with say 3000hp right? Truth be told, it's all relevant. #6 drives have more than their fair share of issues, you just don't read about it here as much because the majority of boats operated here are propelled by bravo style drives due to cost. I don't know the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that bravo drives make up about 90% of the drives on performance boats. Look it up, maybe you can further educate us all. Oh, something else for #6 strength, what about that same transmission that's used in the arnesons?

I will not get on here and say anything bad about rik's drives- I know they are good drives. I said earlier, I've never used one, nor do I know anyone that has- but I can read... It's not for everyone, and the pimary reason it wasn't for me was due to circumstance and timing.

I'm a pretty black and white person, I will only attest to what I know because of personal experience or cold hard facts. The facts about oil, is that there are only a few good oils out there. I've tried almost everything, and everything I've tried I've looked at on a slide under a microscope I purchased for just that purpose. I don't know what makes an oil better than any other, I'm not a chemist. But I can tell you what I see before and after use under a microscope. I can also tell you what I can feel between my fingers before and after use. Maybe you should try it yourself sometime- you may be amazed. I could spend yet another hour of my time writing yet another book about what I see, but it would just be much simpler for you to look for yourself, before you run it- and after. In my limited experience, and in my particular application- the neo has proven to ME to be the best for MY application. I can't tell you what will work best for YOU in YOUR application, but if you ask my opinion about what works for me- I'll give it. Torco and amsoil are both good products. Lucas has some amazing technology, and some extremely brilliant scientists in their employ- but nothing Lucas makes works for me. Nor did the amsoil.

John Pfahl of The Bravo Shop, aka as Waconda here- the owner of the company that NOW manufactures the Bmax drive, and has since he purchased the company name and technology approx 18 months ago-

Here's my opinion of him, for what it's worth. I am not his friend, though I would not hesitate for a moment to be considered as such, in fact I would be honored to be. I spoke to him for the first time in the early part of this year based on a recommendation from a friend that sells and manufactures more parts to performance boaters than any other company in the country. What made his suggestion interesting, is that he does not sell a single part that John offers- in fact he sells parts from practically EVERY OTHER manufacturer, yet suggested to me that I call and speak to John because he felt that the Bmax was my ONLY option besides reconfiguring my boat. Not once was the arneson brought up in that conversation, and I can't say why. My first conversation with John continued into a purchase due to his honesty with me about his drive and the confidence he instilled with his blatantly apparent knowledge not of drives, but of physics and machinery. My decision to try the bmax was not based on his year of ownership of the company, but because of the plain simple physics he possesses. Do I personally think his drive is better than anything else I have tried? Yes I do. Do I think it's the strongest bravo style drive on the market? I don't know. Yes he uses an xr lower gear set, but he has his processes. Do I really buy into the whole cryo/rem/heat treat stuff? I can't say for sure if it works, I've heard too many discrepancies to be sure. Why is his drive strong? I'm willing to bet it's a grocery list of reasons- but my strongest feeling is that it's just a really great combination of many many small differences, better oil, stronger case, etc etc etc.

I'm really sorry I babbled this long about all of this, but I personally felt that your comment was a personal bash on a man I have a great deal of respect for, and maybe just another mans opinions or views on the subjects at hand.

Chill out, boat fast, and have fun. Forums are supposed to be helpful, most of my best ideas started in here. Let's all try to just get along without aggravating each other.

Sorry again for the rant.

I guess I need to sumerize the thread for all the lazy people who skim read. Next week I will submit a book on tape for ya! LOL, HA HA, Just Joking! (to make sure I don't hurt anyones feelings this is all in fun)

mkrytiuk has xr drives with -2 IMCO lowers, twin 850 hp, looking to upgrade "not cost an arm and a leg"

waconda AKA owner of BMAX drives

"With only 850hp in a 35 fountain the is no need to drop a lot of $$$$ on something you don't need or that is way over kill.
The Bmax will work perfect on that application and you won't be with out your boat for months putting it in and spending precious summer time trying to dial it in. JMHO.

This comment started the whole problem. Someone who does not advertise, endorsing their own product, putting down other products, getting sarcastic with RIK from arneson, not listening to what the OP wants. He does not want to "grandma the throttles" I agree. It would be like having a Viper and granny shifting! If my trans and rear axle can not handle powershifting then what the hell do I have a sports car for??? Might as well drive a automatic luxury car then.

OP does not want xr gears which are in the bmax, especially for that kind of money.

Cheap but gaining strength would buy those used SCX drives that just went for sale in the swap shop, and use his SC lowers for now.

Arneson conversion would be next on the list since its the EASY way to put surface drives on, and we all know fountains love surface drives, high x dimensions, etc.

So John "waconda" knows everything about the arneson but was not being sarcastic when he asked about the size of the #6 gears???? He post on here his boat does 104 but on SOS it does 99 and at LOTO it ran 89.

So lets double check this. Looks like JOHN started chit on this thread with RIK, Started chit with me, and won't even listen to what the customer wants???

Thanks for posting this, I always wondered how the hell it had twin vert shafts, now it is obvious, Smitty

ivrepoman

Your boat is sweet! Any OSOer would be proud to own it just as if we owned the mercedes MTI.

No need to be sorry for the rant, thats what the open forums is all about. Perfect place for us passionate powerboaters to share our feelings, ideas, advice, etc.

Yes #6 drives break, it sucks, the boats also have more power, longer, heavier, driven much different, wrenched on much different, etc. NO machine is bulletproof.

Who started being sarcastic again? Your bff john

Arnesons are awesome but also do have downfalls, they are machines. There are options on upgrading transmissions though. Would I use one on a single, prob not. Set up on any speed boat takes dialing in, thats the fun part! You cant tell me your done with yours forever. ( BTW have you talked to cutting edge prop yet)

Neo oil is prob good oil, but not magic oil that makes a bravo style drive last forever, nor is it night and day different then any other good oil,(besides merc junk!)

If you re read all my post I am trying to have fun and not personally attack anyone who I thought could not handle it. I pay alot of attention to the black thunder thread on SOS and those guys tease each other more then any other boat manufacture group. I think the only reason SOS exist is for the black thunder crew. So After John started all this on this thread I was hoping he could handle a little fun.

ivrepoman, you and I sound really alike. Financially, business wise, black and white thoughts, how we like to wrench, etc. If we were all hanging at a poker run together in person, and we could see each others smiles and here each other tones, I bet none of this would be a problem.

Ivrepoman.

In your post you mention setup and prop issues. May I ask what kind of issues you are thinking of? The reason why I ask is because I'm not sure I follow you. Anytime you change drives, that being to a Bmax, SCX, ASD, you will always have to spend time dialing it in. This then leads to the second part - props. Are you refering to the prices of the Merc and Hering cleavers? Props are part of dialing in, so whatever you do, biggest chance is that you'll need new props no matter what. A thing nobody has mentioned in this thread is, that on smaller applications the Arnies can run bravo style props, so a smaller twin setup does not always mean 10 grand spend on props. Rik will have to step in here, since I don't know when and where this is the way to go. The way I see it, setup and new props are not issues, but facts of boating life when altering the setup.

Good post BTW :ernaehrung004:




Another thing.

I agree with offshorex. Dialing in is part of the fun(95% of the time anyway:D) That is also why I don't get this part, at all.

"you won't be with out your boat for months putting it in and spending precious summer time trying to dial it in. JMHO"

Since when has it taken months to install a set of arnesons? It takes 2-3 weeks, sometimes less. Dialing in is not downtime, but a broken drive is. You can still do boating with friends and family when dialing in, you need to. How else would you know what the boat will do with different loads if you don't? An interesting thing to consider is, that many actually put more hr's on their boat the season they dial it in than when it's dialed. So to sum up. You get to play around with you boat, see what it is capable of, alone and with others, as I think is fun, maybe you'll get more hr's on the water than you normally would. And the best part for last. You sometimes get to learn how to drive your boat all over again, and to me, that has always been the most exciting part.

Oh yes, I can see why all that is sooo bad:rolleyes:

Sounds like a nice ride. What are the details. Motor manu, year ect.
Why do you want to detune to 700 if you stick with the 35 and go arnies?

I will make a movie of this thread because Offshore can't read.

I don't know if your wife is giving you the info and you can't type it correct or what but if you get on LOTO shoot out you will see my BT ran 97 mph in the shoot out.
As far as listing to the customer maybe you should, he did NOT want to spend a lot of cash and 65K to me is a lot of cash.
I was not sarcastic with RIK and as I said he has a great piece but not for my application.
And to my friend offshore you are the one who is starting all the trash talk and name calling no one else just you.
I guess you have no true info or good points so you name call.

I guess it's all in how some perceive what they read, such as my perception of your previous post... Again, I apologize if I mas mistaken.

If your spending the money on a capable propulsion package, absolutely no reason to back off the power!

Well duh, were budget bravo boaters- aren't we all alike?

This thread just made me realize something- oso is kinda like watching football. We all have our favorite teams, and that really is ok. We just have to draw a line between being cheerleaders, or being meat swingers. If your gonna be a meat swinger, just be careful not damage the inside of these old guy's knees as you swing off their sacks.

Me, I'll cheer a little, but I think I'd rather just spectate.

I can totally understand where some of the smack talking starts with these manufacturers, every coach thinks his team is the best.

:party-smiley-004:

"I can totally understand where some of the smack talking starts with these manufacturers, every coach thinks his team is the best."
You summed this up BETTER than anyone ever has!!!

being an enthusiast too,i can understand how easy it is to get carried away....merc being the villains in a lot of stories !!:evilb:

A wise man once told me a quarter on throttle at a time and you know what he was right.

Ivrepoman

Thanks for trying to understand where I was coming from and all the nice comments. I like chatting with you on here and look forward to hearing more updates on your boat! Your experience with b max drives is super impressive and almost changes my opinion on them. But i still will never own a drive with xr gears in it again! I boat 120 hours a season crossing lake michigan to Wisconsin often. Reliability is a must. Out here we get 12 to 15 ft waves often and limping back on 1 drive is not an option!

Every last person on oso has something in common... The love of our boats. No need for us to beat each other up. I came here for the first time 7 years ago when I bought my first boat, and like I said in my book the other day- some of my greatest ideas for my project started here. Now get back to work, I'll expect a pleasantly narrated version of my book on cd by weeks end sir. You may title it Shish boom bah, rah rah rah- the fine art of electronic cheerleading! Now someone needs to start another interesting thread for us to follow, this one seems to have run it's course with mytiuk deciding on a new boat with arnesons...

Btw, mytiuk- congrats on the new addition to your family! Hope to here some details about her soon!

There are two ASD8 (with 33" Rolla cleavers) in new to me boat now.

Older one has pair of TRS.

Never ever change my Arnesons any bravo style XR/Bmax drive.

Just driving a few times now and has not any problems via handling
when comparing older boat TRS.

In so many ways... Yes.

BTW. Been reading your last posts. You seem like a cool fella, I know this is not our thread, so if you have time, pm me a little info about your scarab. I've had one:)

So whats this new boat with arnesons??

You runnin' drugs???:eek::drink:

Well canada is really close! J/k But smuggling cubans for 10k a head sounds easier. Put 68 hours on the cruiser this season. Pulled it out today and now the weather forcast is high 70s for the next week! Gonna have to look for some big waves for the jet skis!

What would you like to know?

Just some general info about setup, likes and don't likes ect. I had a great time with mine, and one of my wifes friends husband owns her now. So I still see it a few times a year. When he and I meet, we still wrench and fiddle around with it. I just think it's fun to gain some knowledge about what others have done ect.

Rik should offer up a pair of his Arnie drives, the bravo swap units!
As I cannot afford to buy new drives I'll offer up my boat to be the test mule.
An in-depth write up can be followed here on OSO, would put a lot of "opinions" to rest I'd imagine.
When can I bring you my boat??? (one can dream right??)

Sure you can:D I had the same great idea if Ilmor decided to put out 800 V10's:drink:

You can also ask, if OL will supply you with the new 36SL to put them on. I bet you'll put many many testing hours on it. Testing two things at once, I can't see the problem with that, and they get free labour:lolhit:

Now to get BP to supply their new marine grade ethanol (doesnt exist) for free and diesel fuel for the new Pete and Hilton to supply the hotel rooms, you'd be set!

Hey you fogot the not yet developed self unloading/loading super aero dynamic lightweight titanium trailer from Myco.

The rails are filled with helium as are the tires to save on weight......:lolhit:

I like where your head is at sir..... :lolhit:

So I switched the blower pulley and turned the HP down to 700.

I was crussing yesterday at 93, on perfectly flat water, and something just gave out. I'll let you know what actually went.

I spoke to John from the bravo shop, and he says that I am trying to make the XRs do something they weren't designed to handle.

Does anyone know of a good used set of ASDs for sale?

Yes sorry to hear that........I am wating for mine.....1100hp.....but my boat is a lot lighter.

I see we think alike!! :drink:

Please tell me about your OWN experience showing that Torco is crap!

That must be what he was running in his drives when they blew almost two years ago, thats why he hates Torco. :grinser010:. Speaking of drives, are you going to put any on that boat or WHAT?