IMO......Formula may have a safety isssue with the hull/deck bonding.
 

This post is meant to be more of a SAFETY BULLETIN regarding Formula's famous "bonding" of the deck-to-hull more than anything else. I am no expert regarding any manufacturing processes that Formula uses, but I have issues with the apparent method used to bond the deck to the hull. I also do not know the scope of this problem or what Formula products could be affected. I only have exposure to FASTech 382 issues.

I have nothing to gain from this thread except a clear conscious trying to make others aware of what I perceive as a potential safety issue. I only wish that Formula had stepped up and issued information directly to owners. I don’t feel this is something that will affect every Formula boat; however it is something that an owner should be aware of. I feel that if left unchecked, this problem will continue to worsen and depending upon an owner’s use of the vessel, under certain circumstance total “bonding” failure could cause major injury or death.

Suspect Problem: The heavily marketed “deck bonding” process using a product called Plexus is not done properly (IMO). From what was evident on my hull (and others), the hull and deck was connected together with Plexus, and then screwed (bolted) together too soon. When tightened, the majority of the Plexus (in some areas…….all) was squeezed out from the deck/hull joint.

Result: I did not notice anything at any specific time, nor do I think it happens all at once. I think it is a gradual process where bit by bit the remaining bonding material fails because there is so little of it. I first noticed a problem with both a moving rub rail, and numerous sheared screws under the rub rail on both sides. Later I also noticed some water dripping on the inside cabin walls at times.

What I did: When faced with this issue, I think most folks would keep this to themselves. Who would want to let others know that there is a major structural issue with their boat? Very few people would make this a headline. Fortunately I was copied on some ongoing dialog of this issue others in our boat club. As it turns out, my boat was the fifth in our local boat club to have this issue. As such, there is a marine specialist in our area that has now fixed all five boats by working with Formula to develop new specs for this bonding rework. It basically entails grinding out all the old bonding material and reinstalling using Plexus recommendations, and re-bolting the deck.

Conclusion: I have thought long and hard about bringing the issue I had out in the open. How would it affect others, the Formula brand, and the resale of my boat (and others). The bottom line is that I briefly mentioned a potential “problem” in one thread here, and I have already had one person with a 382 instant message me asking if it had anything to do with a separation of the deck and hull. If a worst case scenario were to happen and there were a total failure causing serious injury or death, is that something I could live with?

I will post additional dialog regarding this issue with my Formula later if there is interest.

Nort
Thank you for the 382 info.This will be the first thing I check when the boat is out of winter storage. If the problem has not occurred on my boat I may just go ahead and up the size of the hardware. 1/4" is fairly small. Did you get a response from Scott Porter or Formula? This may not apply at all,but might be worth a mention. I do not know anything about Plexus, but in the Auto Collision industry we use many bonding agents.Most commonly is a product called Weld Bond. It is used to bond exterior sheet metal panels in place such as roof skins. The product is amazing,once curred (24 hrs) you can not pull two pieces of metal apart with a unibody frame machine.The sheet metal will tear before the bond will fail. The product is dispensed on the replacement panel and then Vise-Gripped in place. The reason I mention this,is the bonding products we use are designed with tiny glass particles that won't crush or squeeze out when clamped. I would be curious if Plexus use's this same technology. Thank you for the info.

Nice post, Nort.

That is certainly shocking given their reputation. I hope that they provide you with a satisfactory resolution, and that they implement a fleet-wide corrective action to take care of all of their 382 customers.

Nort I do not think that this will have any effect on your boats value. If anything you can show that there has been a stuctural improvement made.

Plexus is a wonderfull product that when used EXACTLY to spec will hold like crazy. I don't think that there is an issue with squeezing it after aplication but if the 2 surface layers are not totally clean, or if you do not use enough......

I've had my 353 in some pretty rough waters on Summer Saturdays at LOTO and haven't seen any probs, but I'm going to start keeps a eye on that area and rub rail.

Good info, thanks for the heads up.

Either I'm lucky or I don't run my 2000 382 very hard. I did a major re-rig in 2007 and found everything to be good along the hull/deck joint, even in the areas where the marina had hit the building with the boat and I had smacked a piling hard enough to break the rubrail and crack the gel coat.

Hope things work out best for everyone...

Yes from Mike Boyd......here is Formula's first response. The first page it seems like they are attempting to separate my claims, remove any normal conditions or use from the circumstances and make this my fault, but they are the good guys who will give me a few bucks to solve the problem.

The second page looks like a "boiler plate" reponse......almost looks like a copy (the text weight is different from the first page).

Here is a PM that I received this morning:

===============================
dito your issue on my 2000 353.

discovered wet cabin wall one day....took off rub rail...was amazed to find so many broken screws on "wonderful Plexus system".

Very difficult to access screws from interior. I believe it was difficult to access interior at factory also, and not nearly as many screws were installed as I would have expected.

Nope, not their fault. Never is, is it? :rolleyes:

Sounds like they're attempting to absolve themselves from any responsibility. That's bullsht in my opinion. Here we have what appears to be a rash of approximately half dozen+ incidents involving structural hull-deck joint failures on boats of your vintage. A recurring problem. In my opinion that's precisely the definition of a design and/or manufacturing process flaw. How the hell do they expect you to use the boat?...in the driveway as an ornament?...It's a "FastTec" right? Jeez.

I love their accelerated fatigue excuse. :picard1:

Good luck guys.

Jeez Nort, you put the thing in the water and then bang around in a bunch of waves and stuff traveling faster than 30 mph and then when you finally stop that punishment you use cleaners on it and keep it in that crazy southern California weather. You think any boat could hold up to that kind of abuse :rolleyes: :lolhit:

Do the other 4 guys that have same problem, are their boats around the same year as yours...2001?

Plexus is a structural adhesive that according to ITW "dissolves a thin layer of each mating surface and actually fuse two composite surfaces into one, creating a chemically cross-linked bond so strong that the composites will delaminate before the bond fails."
My first thought when i was reading Norts posting was that maybe Formula didnt clean the amine blush off the fiberglass parts after they cured and before they were put together. Then looking at that picture of the Formula worker puting the Plexus on the gel part of the hull and i think whats probably happening is the Plexus IS bonding but only to the Gel...and that is not structualy bonded to the glass uner it.....so it just sheers off in the high stress areas.

One is older (2000), and I think the rest are newer. Each is a different year. I think Dave Davis' boat is an '05 or '06?

I experienced a somewhat similar problem with our Larson in that there was a structural problem that they did not initially want to deal with. In the start the boat was perfect, but after the first year we noticed there were small spider cracks on the bow extending all the way down from the bow eye to the water line, and they kept expanding. Called Larson up, and after a couple discussions back and forth, being blown off numerous times, finally decided that they would cover it under warranty to get them fixed at a local marina.

Fast forward two years, and the exact same problem came back but much worse. Called the factory, and the first person we spoke to completely blew us off telling us it was our fault and we were misusing the boat. Complete BS. Called again, spoke with another person who we sent pictures to and after discussing the problem with the engineers, they decided that is was not misuse, but in fact a structural problem. So in the end they have made good, they came and picked up the boat after our season was done, and it is in the factory right now getting a complete new hull put on our deck.

Larson maned up on this one. So I would say, keep at it, for us it really did depend on who we spoke with, it took a couple calls to get to someone who did not completely blow us off. I would also seriously recommend actually calling the factory and speaking with someone. It is much easier to send a email reply blowing you off then it is when you can state your point and refute what they are saying.

Good luck

Interesting. I prefer to actually document the dialog with letters. Formula seems to want this too even though they emailed the letters, the original also came in the postal snail mail.

Here is my second letter to them.

I completely agree, I would much rather have emails with dates, and everything in hard copy by far. I just found that they were more willing to try to come to some understanding when you can have a direct back and forth dialogue without necessarily giving them time to think about a response via email. However, it really did take quite a few phone calls to get to someone who would actually work with me instead of just blowing me off, I got passed along to quite a few voicemails before actually getting someone who was willing to respond, let alone even help.

what junk plexus is on a little 16 Donzi, with 42 hours on it, yes, 42, complete seperation everywhere..boat is completely apart for repairs... it didn't bond anywhere, to anything.. my pic's are too large to attach

I am sad to read about this and really hope that this will be resolved to your satisfaction.

If I were you I would want Formula to fix this at the factory. They know the boat in detail and I believe they know how to fix this so it will last.

I think Formula should fix it free of charge and you should pay the transportation. I have no idea of the transportation cost (I am from Europe) but do realise you are far away from the factory. But for me it is all about getting the repair done properly so the boat will be OK again.

My real concern remains that others need to be made aware so they can monitor it.



Second letter from Formula.

Shoot them over to me and i will resize and post them up for ya :D
my work email: wwojcik@ marchpump.com

Thanks for the information...No problem yet, but I'll be on alert.

wonder how many Fast-tec were made since the started bonding hulls together with plexus, not that many would be my guess 25-50 per year less than 500 boats over a 10 year period of time if that boats havent been selling to good in the last 3yrs maybe only 200-300 boats? And we already know of about 6-7 boats that have had similar issues were already around 2-3% of the boats and thats not even looking for them im sure this must be happening alot. Im sure they know they have a problem and the bean counter are taking a calculated risk. What was the issue or law suit about with the 419 why they quit offering it?

later

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think it's unreasonable that a 10 year old boat that has been pounding waves in the ocean might need a little TLC. Engines are routinely freshened up after 300 hours which according to my math equals about 15,000 miles on a car if that, and no one's complaining. I also fail to see this as a safety issue since I'm certain the deck wouldn't suddenly fly off the hull. Owner's that have removed the fuel tank to repair water damage under the cockpit have had it much worse. I would take the money Formula offered and run.

I have not seen this on my 292 but will check fully when the shrinkwrap is off.If I understand correctly the first telltale sign was the rubrail started to disconnect?
I would not worry about killing value of anyone's Formula there escape plan already did that.They hold there value worse than any other brand.I would have been better off with the 30 Baja Outlaw I almost bought.

I am in the auto body business and we repair vehicles with all kinds of adhesives. From glueing quarter panels and bed sides on, to repairing bumpers. You always squeeze just about as much adhesive out as possible. The bond is actually stronger the thinner the bond is. Metal adhesive has microscopic glass beads that keep the glue from compressing to much. That is how thin the bond should be. Jeff Wurl

Yes. I feel you are missing something. The problem started in 2003 when the boat was two years old. I see it as a safety issue since some folks that use these boats as they were intended (and marketed) and use them in the ocean. Waves can and will come at unexpected angles and with them come stress peaks to the deck/hjull joint. When I had my boat repaired, every inch of the connection between the hull and deck was compromised. With your hand, you could move the rub rail up and down anywhere. I feel that what makes the hull strong is the deck. What makes the deck strong is the hull. By themselves, I feel they are weak. Given the right combinations, I see a deck splitting apart and peeling back on a swell and the glass windshield breaking.

I'm not looking for money for the repair even though it would have been nice to have them comit to fixing it no matter what. Read the marketing material.....I see phrases like "inseparable", and "this joint is fail-safe", as well as "never going to leak or break apart".

I was seeing what Formula would actually do.

While some things are expected to fail some are not.This is what it looks like when a deck comes off.

Picture in next post

http://www.formulaboats.com/factory_tour.aspx

Click deck and hull bonding

Thank You Nort. Guys, my hull is a 05' I noticed some seperation in 07. In my case it appeared there was not enough Plex installed in the joint. Plex is specific as to the quantity and the squeeze. I think the way Team Archer did the repair it is way stronger than it was from the factory. 5 out of 5 382's had the same issue in SCOPE! Please check yours if you are a owner. Simply push on the hull just below the rubrail, if it flexes independent of the deck you may have a issue. Pull the rubrail and have a look. Thanks, Dave

From reading Formula's second response, I don't think they're comprehending the seriousness, nor the wide proliferation of this problem. Perhaps, the next people you should copy on all of this is the Coast Guard certification office.

This deserves a nationwide recall in my opinion, before someone gets killed.

Here you go, Nort. Report it to the Coast Guard:
http://www.uscgboating.org/recalls/owners_report.aspx

WOW! That might make some manufactures sit up and listen.

I agree that their brochure makes the boats seem invincible and is BS, but if you noticed the problem after 2 years, you should have contacted them at the time since it would have been a warranty issue and maybe there was a manufacturing defect in yours and some others. Because of the length, a problem will show up in a 38 before a 35 or 29. I know of no other industry including homeowners warranties that will back a product after ten years. I've owned old Scarabs and Stingers where the decks were simply screwed on using the rub rail self tapping screws, and yes, they flexed, cracked and the screws fell out, but you noticed these things before the deck flew off, as you did. My 311 Formula lasted 15 years before I needed to make some repairs to the deck joint. While the manufacturing techniques and materials have definitly improved over the years, I don't think any of these boats are indestructable forever. I hope the repair works out, it looks like you take good care of your stuff.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention PhantomChaos.

I was just out carefully looking over my 292. Looking under the rub rail around the entire boat there are only two places where I see a 1/8" to 3/16" gap between the bottom of the rub rail and hull. The gaps are located on each side of the boat near the windshield area and only for 2-3 feet. Everywhere else the rub rail butts up right to the hull. I grabbed the rub rail and tried to move it up and down and it didn't move at all. The hull would not push in either.

I am not sure if this gap has been there from the beginning or has happened over time. Do any of you Fastech owners see a slight gap between the bottom of your rub rail and the hull? Thanks.

Does Formula just use Plexus and bolt on these newer Fastech's, or do they glass any of the hull/deck joint with the Plexus? I remember my 242-SR1 being glassed & bolted on the deck joint. Never had an issue at all. It was a tank.

The way I understand it you are fine.As the rubrail is a different material it may contract/expand at different rates as long as the hull does not move when you push on it I think you are fine.I don't think we will see any 292s doing this as they are much shorter the deck on a 38 is hugh because they are side by side so is the 35.There is a lot of area that has to flex.

True, but I am still wondering if any gap is normal. Do you recall seeing any gaps with your 292? I noticed mine probably 2-3 years after owning the boat, BUT I'm not sure if it was there from the start and I simply didn't notice it before.

The response is very similar to responses and court testimony from Contender boats in a now infamous series of threads at THT. For boats costing as much as they do with these two lines, it's amazing what their responses are.

As far as I'm concerned, separations in the hull deck joints are the kiss of death. Plexus with thru bolt should never come apart short of an impact.

I am doing my 311 this year so I am interested to see how bad it has come apart. The boat has about 400 hours on it. I know it is apart in a lot of areas because the rub rail screws back out all the time. I am not sure what they used to bond the decks on the 311 if anything, but I am going to use 5200 like I did on my 302. I like the 5200 idea becaues it will allow a very slight amount of movement with out loosing it's bond. Once Plexus lets go it is going to be a very quick progresion to disaster. I am also going to through bolt the rubrail back on with large fender washers and nylock nuts any place that I have access behind the rubrail.

I remember being down at Lipship and Phil showed us a 38 or 35, can't remember, that the actual stringer grid had let go!