where is this on the joint?

Well.......................hello? What else could you test on the ramp? :drink::drink:

That was my assumtion. just making sure. Its a misleading test, as it shows nothing about the hull to deck bond. Everyone with loose rub rail screws is going to think they have a major issue, which may or may not be true.

Your picture however is troubling. Thats why I asked where it was on the boat.

How is that a misleading test? There are screws every 18 inches or less. In my case I double the screws since it was "loose". If the rub rail moves, or you can push the hull in........PROBLEM. I guess we need to post a video demo? :) Next hull we find in SCOPE! :drink: :eek: I'll ask the owner about where that pic was taken.

Absolutly, if you can push the hull in, you have problems. Loose rub rail screws don't mean anything, except maybe that the owner didn't do any maintaince on his boat. I used to have to tighten mine every year. If you didn't do that for multiple years, I'd be surprised if they didn't all come loose.

Telling people that loose rub rail screws is a sign of a bonding failure is misleading at best. Everyone that has loose screws is going to panic and think they have a major hull issue, when they may or may not.

If you remove the rail, and the through bolts are broken, or as you said, if the hull moves in, thats a problem.

As I said, that shot of the Plexus is very bad. Thats why I asked where it was, or for a wider picture. Based on the pictures and videos I have seen of Formula applying Plexus, that looks like its the whole bead that "missed", and it shouldn't have "missed"...

Sorry......I miss read your post. The only loose rub rail screws I have had are because the head of the screw (under the rub rail) came off with the broken screw.

Are you indicating that you need to periodically remove your rubrail and tighten the screws holding the deck?

The pic doesn't show there isn't plexus in the joint, only there is plexus on the hull. Maybe the guy sneezed and started a new bead. You need to look between the joint.

Guys, the key word here is "may". The rubrails were the leading indicator of the seam issue. I AM NOT saying that all rubrail issues are as a result of seam failure

Plex photo
 

This photo was taken from the engine room forward of the starboard engine. When we pulled the rail and repaired the joint there was NO PLEX in this area NONE!. In general on my boat there was not enough plex in the seam.In most places there was just one line installed and then over squeezed. Upon repair we installed enough to squeeze out the top and the bottom of the seam. Plex wants at least 1/8" of material left in the seam, careful not to oversqueeze! As you can see there is no plex squeezed from the joint forward of the gob. Operator error...yes I agree..

Dave......how did you get the deck and hull separated? If done correctly, that Plexus joint is "inseparable"!!! You'd rip the fiberglass first! :D

The way I seperated the hull halfs on my 302 was use a hack saw blade on a funky cutter my brother had. Had to be SUPER carefull to not cut into the deck or hull. I have no idea what the bond was made out of as I know that back then Formula did not use anything, so I assume that it was something that one of the previous owners had done.

No, I am talking about the phillips screws that hold the rub rail on. I understood the post to say that the rub rail was loose. My understanding is that the phillips screws on the outside are what hold the rail on. So if they are loose, the rail will move.

no, I was not saying that I ever needed to remove the rubrail to tighten loose through bolts.

This is the really scary part of this. Formula shows them putting the bead of Plexus on, and then lowering the deck over it. If I understand the video and the pictures correctly, it should be impossible for the plexus to get where it is on your boat. I would think that if it got moved, it would be pushed down on the hull when the deck is lowered. IOW, it looks like on your boat that someone screwed up BADLY!

When you say that Plexus wants at least 1/8" in the joint, do you mean 1/8" thick? Can you have more?

Info............

They say a minimum of .05". Thats 1/2 the amount that FF quoted. I've also seen other companies quote between .01 and .03 minimum.

IOW it doesn't seem as if there has to be much in there. Less seems to be better When Formula bolts those joints together I don't think they squeeze it thinner than the above.

Going to my storage today to check on mine. For my sake I'm hoping Formula was more deligent using Plexus on the early boats, as the process being new to them and they wanted to make sure it was done right. I feel for anybody having to deal with this.

Believe me I know that sinking feeling when you realize that your Formula isnt indestructable. Found bad bulkheads in my 311 from a leaking windshield. Bought the 353, found water in the transom from improperly installed exhaust tips and extension boxes(not factory installed).

Makes me wonder about the grid system now. Did Formula start getting sloppy on the production process??

Hope not..


LE

I don't know what product Formula uses. I just thought it was an interesting bulletin. It is for fixing trailers.

Bottom line is.......boats are failing and could be a safety issue if ignored.

- The fiberglass is not ripped apart.
- Plexus works properly if installed per recommendations.
- Decks are separating from the hull.

This is not the end of the world. The repair didn't take that long, and it wasn't THAT expensive.

How much of your boat did you pull apart to fix it?
What did you use to fix it?
Pictures?

You guys are really scaring me I have been looking at 38 fastechs for about a year now. This issue will scare me away and shop for something else.

Don't let this scare you.

That was my point a while back.

No one is sure what or if this is an issue. I see the picture (ONE), and hear the claims, and they very well may be correct. but, IMHO, I highly doubt that this is any kind of the issue that some may think. PhantomChaos's boat is a 2001. Thats 10 YEARS ago. If this was an issue, throughout the entire line or on all boats, I would sure think that we would have heard something about it before now. 10 years is thousands of boats. So far one picture of a small section that is said to not have Plexus in it, and thats it.

I'm not trying to cast doubt on anyones claims here, but that is all any of us have seen, is one picture. I'd love to see the repair pics, or the no plexus pics, or anything that shows that this is an issue. This is a VERY serious allegation again a very respected builder, and as such, I'd like to see more than what has been produced so far.

I would be very concerned if I were you at the very least this will hurt resale value of Formula's.There customer service is outstanding....intill this the fact is we don't know how far this is going to go.There are a lot of boats that are going to be checked in the spring now,will they be ok or will more be found.
I am really suprised that Formula has not commented on this thread.Its a real problem for them now that they have been notified if some one gets killed the worst lawyer in the country can find this thread.OSO is goggle based so a Formula deck problem search will bring you right here.

Because of there low interest escape program there boats don't hold there value very well to begin with.I am not sure they even want to build Fastech's any more.

What in the world are you basing this post on? There is NO solid information out there that this is a widespread problem or just a couple of boats. As I said before, we have seen ONE SINGLE picture of a claimed problem. and even that picture doesn't show that something was wrong. It shows NOTHING, but some plexus or resin or something on the inside hull of a boat. For you to post that someone should be worried about a Formula because of that is misleading at best.

Why would Formula come on here and post anything? It is a no win situation to say the least. Rigt or wrong, that stated their position in the letters that PhantomChaos posted.

I would guess that Formula doesn't really care about building Fastechs anymore either. That has nothing to do with anything, as the use Plexus on every other boat they build. If it was applied wrong, even boats running along at 50 mph would see failures.

You are right, you can google this, and guess what? OSO come up. Nothing else.

Ok,why are you waving the Formula flag when Members some of them very respected on this board have come forward with this.You say not enough has been posted to prove anything.I disagree all you have posted is your opinion.
All these boat companies make me laugh the post Videos of there boats running hard then when something breaks it was driver error.

You're really good with a computer found it on google in 30 seconds.

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...d+deck+bonding

Did you read what I posted????

Now go look at your google search. (WHich BTY is the same one I did). Why don;'t you post the link to the VP test?

As I CLEARLY said, the ONLY thing that comes up about any issue with the hull/deck joint is OSO.

Because I owned 3 of them, and they were the best boats I ever owned. The only ones with zero issues.

I'm aware of who started this thread. And with all due respect, what difference does it make?

You think enough has been posted to show that this is an issue? Where? Is there a thread that I have missed? Because this one hasn't proven anything.

Of course I've posted my opinions. Thats the same thing you are posting. Lets see some good solid proof that this is a major issue, or any issue, before we start to trash Formula.

again, as I posted before. I'm am not saying that this is not an issue. I'm saying that I haven't seen anything to show me that it is. If it is an issue then I will be wanting to know WTF is up with Formula too.

Yes I read your post,did you?You stated that OSO showed up....correct.My statement was that this thread will show up it did.I really don't want to post any of the other links but you can if you want to.You seem to be hinting that these members are making this up.Why What possible motive would they have for that.Do they run in the ocean probably hard yes was it marketed as a ****ing offshore performance boat yes.But now all of a sudden its driver error.

[QUOTE=Zone 5;3322134]

I'm aware of who started this thread. And with all due respect, what difference does it make?

Well because he has brought out other issues....and always been someone who doesn't open his mouth unless he knows what he is talking about.

My point on the search was what I said it was. ONLY this thread on OSO comes up about issues. Every other search result that comes up talks about how good Formula builds their boats, and of course the VP result says its one of the best boats in their test fleet. If you want to believe that a single negative in a search means anything, then I guess doing a search that brings up how great Trick Marine was means something too.

I never said these members were making anything up. I said I haven't seen anything from them except a single picture thats shows nothing. Formula says its driver error. Thats their opinion, and it is what it is. I have no idea how these boats are driven. Probably in the ocean and hard. Thats fine. Thats what they were built for.

The important thing here is to find out if they failed, and if so, if they truly failed because of something Formula did wrong, or for some other reason. The other important thing to find out, is if it was a Formula problem, if its widespread or if it was a few boats

That very well may be the case. My posting has nothing to do with who started this thread.

If you call your town tonight and tell them that the man hole cover is missing.Then Monday a four year old girl fails in and drowns the city is liable.If a hull/deck separate and there are injuries/ deaths it will be argued that Formula was notified of this and took no action.

If the fiberglass broke next to the joint it would be different.But everyone is agreeing that that joint is supposed to be stronger than the glass itself.THAT IS THE ISSUE.

Hopefully this is only a few boats I think in the next few months we will know.Because 3000 people viewed this thread there is going to be a lot of boat checking going on.And that is what I believe was Nort's intention.

I believe that if you look, I have said that if Formula messed up, that they need to get their act together and take care of the problem. What remains to be seen, is if there is a problem, and if so, what caused it. We are talking a major boat Company here, and I'd like to believe that they would not bury their heads in the sand with an issue like this. They didn't get their reputation by building garbage.


Yes, everyone agrees that the Plexus joint is stronger than the glass itself. There is no isssue with that. The issue is if there was something done wrong in the assembly of the boats, and if so, why and what is Formula going to do to fix it.

Z5.....go ahead and bury your head in the sand. Five of Five boats. I'm sure we'll see more boats in our own club this year. No broken fiberglass.......hull/deck needs repair. I'll get you some more pics okay? You can post them on your on your own BoatFreak site if you want.

Here are the last contacts with Formula I have had........and for those without PDF:

Norton,

Sorry for the delay in responding. Yes, I reviewed both boats while visiting Archer and had discussions with Dan and Dave relative to production line manufacturing in general and the deck/hull joint assembly specifically, i.e., how the assembly has evolved and improved through the years. I also shared with Dan some of our testing and experimentation and the changes in manufacturing that have resulted largely due to the inquiries of you and your fellow SCOPE members.

As to my impressions when looking at the boats first hand, I did not see anything that surprised me, i.e., given the previous descriptions and discussions of the issue. Was there room for improvement in both the design and implementation of the joint assemblies? Yes, on both accounts. However, I do not attribute the issues to defects per se. I believe a combination of factors contributed to the joints' separation, and I feel our offers of participation toward the repairs is commensurate with this position. As a production line manufacturer, we work within certain parameters and limitations, and the reality is we build our boats to general standards that may prove insufficient durability-wise when exposed long-term to more severe conditions and applications. What we've seen happen with your boats doesn't mean the deck/hull joint was defective; it does mean we need to make improvements (and we have) if we wish our boats to stand up better over time in offshore-type conditions.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
Regards,
Michael R. Boyd

Bottom line is.....I believe there is a safety issue here, and Fomula is not issuing an inspection bulletin or anything. That is why this thead is here.

PS........they will be building and improving the FASTech each year, just like every manufacturer makes improvements. Great stuff!!

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjQ3Bh2NUFI [/youtube]

Being based in Europe, I don't always understand the market in the USA, so excuse me for asking what probably is a stupid question for you guys based in the US.

You are saying that because of the low interest escape program that Formula boats don't hold their value very well, can you explain this in more detail please ?

How much worse is Formula, compared to other comparable production builders ?

Basically they added 20k to the price of there boats,and then gave 1,2,or 3% loans.This was great as the payment was lower than a less expensive boat.It also makes the payment higher on buying a used Formula higher than new so It was hard to sell the used ones for even close what was owed on them.
They are no longer doing this but the damage is already done.

So you are saying that the people on this low interest payment scheme paid MSRP, while cash buyers paid less than MSRP ?

If so, then yes the depreciation on the boats for people that paid MSRP (or close) would be higher than for the cash buyer that paid a lot less than MSRP. It is also typical for such a financing, that it is difficult to sell the used ones for what is owed on them, if you want to sell after a few years, you are basically stuck with the boat for many years before you can sell it for more than you owe. That should be no surprise. As I see it there is always a catch when you are offered special financing schemes like that.

I think the situation with the global financial crises that started in around 2007/2008 with too many new boats in stock that could not be sold, financial difficulties causing boats to be repoed and then sold for less than 1/2 of MSRP (I guess in some cases 1/3 or even less), that for sure had be big impact on the resale value on used boats. And Formula boats were definitely hit by this. But Formula was not the only manufacturer affected by this I believe.

I think after the repo boats are sold, then the market will find a more normal balance regarding boat prices.

Since Formula no longer offers the special financing scheme, I don't see how it should still affect used Formula boat prices. I would say generally speaking for people that pay MSRP (or close) on a new boat, the depreciation will be higher, compared to people that pay a lot less than MSRP.

I think there was a rebate for cash but I would be guessing if I put a number on it.Going by what they are selling for they IMO have depreciated in a higher percentage than other brands.
I am actually more concerned with the issue of hull defects than this though.

I am too to be honest, but I just wanted to hear your arguments and if you had specific numbers to prove that Formula depreciates more than other brands, because I am not convinced it is true.