F-330SS Bulkhead Replacement
01-07-2014, 03:43 PM
#31
Registered
Fuel tank
A couple of follow-up questions from what I found when I removed the foam . . . just looking for any thoughts or ideas on a couple of things.
1) The darkness that is starting in the main stringers: My plan is to let things dry out a bit, then 'inject' some rot preventative liquid into the stringer at the darkened areas. Two types for rot deterrent liquids come to mind; Bleach or Ethylene Glycol (Green antifreeze) . . . any preferences or rationale of one versus the other. Any additional thoughts?
2) The separation of the foam from the sides of the fuel tank: I'm thinking that this should be remedied in order to prevent water from being trapped between the foam and the fuel tank. I was thinking that I could inject either more foam into those areas or perhaps inject an epoxy of some sort to re-bond the foam and fuel tank. Worst case is that I would have to remove the tank and re-foam it. Any thoughts or ideas on the fuel tank/foam bonding?
Thanks for any thoughts or ideas on these items.
1) The darkness that is starting in the main stringers: My plan is to let things dry out a bit, then 'inject' some rot preventative liquid into the stringer at the darkened areas. Two types for rot deterrent liquids come to mind; Bleach or Ethylene Glycol (Green antifreeze) . . . any preferences or rationale of one versus the other. Any additional thoughts?
2) The separation of the foam from the sides of the fuel tank: I'm thinking that this should be remedied in order to prevent water from being trapped between the foam and the fuel tank. I was thinking that I could inject either more foam into those areas or perhaps inject an epoxy of some sort to re-bond the foam and fuel tank. Worst case is that I would have to remove the tank and re-foam it. Any thoughts or ideas on the fuel tank/foam bonding?
Thanks for any thoughts or ideas on these items.
01-07-2014, 04:03 PM
#32
Registered
Thread Starter
This is one of the many, many reasons we stuck with Formula when we upgraded. The factory support has been absolutely top notch. When I had my 20 year old 303, they treated me like I was a brand new 382 customer. Their enthusiasm for the brand as a whole, not just the latest and greatest is awesome.
We have visited them and the Miami show, and will again this year. Although a new build was out of budget this go around, I honestly think if we ever build a new boat it will be a Formula.
It would be kind of cool to get a small group together for a tour. Every time I speak with them they always extend the invitation to visit.
Sorry to de-rail your thread... great work, and I'm enjoying all the pics!
We have visited them and the Miami show, and will again this year. Although a new build was out of budget this go around, I honestly think if we ever build a new boat it will be a Formula.
It would be kind of cool to get a small group together for a tour. Every time I speak with them they always extend the invitation to visit.
Sorry to de-rail your thread... great work, and I'm enjoying all the pics!
They have already helped me a couple of times on this boat and were also helpful with my 242SS. When you think about it, supporting the used boats helps create a market for the new boats.
01-07-2014, 04:10 PM
#33
Registered
Thread Starter
Regulations for aluminum tank installation require that the foam remains bonded to the tank walls and that the bond needs to be stronger than the foam itself . So, it would not be 'expansion room' by design. It seems that the bond of the paint to the aluminum was not strong enough and gave way.
I am now thinking that my best approach would be to pull the tank, inspect it, re-paint it and then re-install it. That way, I could see if there are any corrosion issues from the trapped moisture and remove the old/wet foam and replace it with new foam.
I am now thinking that my best approach would be to pull the tank, inspect it, re-paint it and then re-install it. That way, I could see if there are any corrosion issues from the trapped moisture and remove the old/wet foam and replace it with new foam.
01-07-2014, 04:43 PM
#34
Registered
Regulations for aluminum tank installation require that the foam remains bonded to the tank walls and that the bond needs to be stronger than the foam itself . So, it would not be 'expansion room' by design. It seems that the bond of the paint to the aluminum was not strong enough and gave way.
I am now thinking that my best approach would be to pull the tank, inspect it, re-paint it and then re-install it. That way, I could see if there are any corrosion issues from the trapped moisture and remove the old/wet foam and replace it with new foam.
I am now thinking that my best approach would be to pull the tank, inspect it, re-paint it and then re-install it. That way, I could see if there are any corrosion issues from the trapped moisture and remove the old/wet foam and replace it with new foam.
01-08-2014, 11:47 AM
#35
Charter Member #232
Charter Member
For your question #1. I would drill into the area and see how bad it is. Of course now with everything frozen you may need to warm it up to see how bad it is. There is NO WAY I would ever inject anything liquid in there. If you inject it in there then how is it going to get out? If you find it is rotten then cut it out! Remember water expands with horrible results as it freezes. Only way to stop the damage is get it 100% dry. If you only have access to one side of the stringer you could very carefully router out the area that is soft. Be very careful to set the depth so that you do not break through the glass on the other side. You can then put a new piece of wood in there and then glass it back in. That would guarantee that it does not get worse.
#2 Try and figure out how bad the separation is. The issue you may have is that if your tank is as bad as mine was it will be covered in oxidization. There is not way to get the foam to bond to the oxidization. So IMO the only way to fix that 100% is to cut back the foam enough that you can sand off the oxidization. I used a chainsaw to remove the foam.
#2 Try and figure out how bad the separation is. The issue you may have is that if your tank is as bad as mine was it will be covered in oxidization. There is not way to get the foam to bond to the oxidization. So IMO the only way to fix that 100% is to cut back the foam enough that you can sand off the oxidization. I used a chainsaw to remove the foam.
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01-08-2014, 02:07 PM
#36
Registered
Thread Starter
For your question #1. I would drill into the area and see how bad it is. Of course now with everything frozen you may need to warm it up to see how bad it is. There is NO WAY I would ever inject anything liquid in there. If you inject it in there then how is it going to get out? If you find it is rotten then cut it out! Remember water expands with horrible results as it freezes. Only way to stop the damage is get it 100% dry. If you only have access to one side of the stringer you could very carefully router out the area that is soft. Be very careful to set the depth so that you do not break through the glass on the other side. You can then put a new piece of wood in there and then glass it back in. That would guarantee that it does not get worse.
#2 Try and figure out how bad the separation is. The issue you may have is that if your tank is as bad as mine was it will be covered in oxidization. There is not way to get the foam to bond to the oxidization. So IMO the only way to fix that 100% is to cut back the foam enough that you can sand off the oxidization. I used a chainsaw to remove the foam.
#2 Try and figure out how bad the separation is. The issue you may have is that if your tank is as bad as mine was it will be covered in oxidization. There is not way to get the foam to bond to the oxidization. So IMO the only way to fix that 100% is to cut back the foam enough that you can sand off the oxidization. I used a chainsaw to remove the foam.
As far as the fuel tank. I have pretty much decided that I should pull the tank, inspect it, re-paint it and then re-install it. The areas of the tank that I have exposed so far look very good, so unless the underside or other areas are dramatically worse, then I should be OK with the tank. It looks like I have to take out the dual helm seat assembly in order to get full access to the deck hatch and remove it. that will expose the fuel bay. The waste tank is suspended over the fuel tank, so I'll have to take that out as well.
Then if the foam is really separated all-around, the tank should pretty much just lift out. another benefit of removing the fuel tank (and the foam) would be that I can easily tab the new bulkhead from the inside, rather than having to cut access holes and install deck plates in the bulkhead.
Anyway, my next opportunity to work on the boat may be MLK day (Jan 20th), hopefully the cold weather will have subsided a bit by then. I'd like to get as much work done during the winter months, because I am usually in a time crunch with regular prep work in the Spring time (April - May).
01-08-2014, 07:48 PM
#37
Charter Member #232
Charter Member
I hear ya with the cold! This is cold for even Boston… Looks like it is going to moderate soon!
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01-16-2014, 04:10 AM
#38
Registered
Thread Starter
A Quick Update:
My next opportunity to work on the boat will probably be the MLK Day holiday this coming weekend. My plan is to shift my attention towards removing the deck hatch in the cockpit sole in order to expose the entire fuel tank bay. I will need to disassemble and remove the dual helm seat so that I can get to the deck hatch.
Once I have full access to the fuel tank bay, I can check the entire perimeter of the tank to see how much of the foam has separated from the tank. I suspect it may be quite extensive, given that it appears to be an issue with the paint adhesion . . . unless the paint adhesion issue is localized.
Anyway, I'm not sure how much of the dis-assembly work that I will get done in one day, but we shall see. Temperatures have been above freezing during the day for about 1 week, So, the 'frozen' foam may be thawed out by now.
My next opportunity to work on the boat will probably be the MLK Day holiday this coming weekend. My plan is to shift my attention towards removing the deck hatch in the cockpit sole in order to expose the entire fuel tank bay. I will need to disassemble and remove the dual helm seat so that I can get to the deck hatch.
Once I have full access to the fuel tank bay, I can check the entire perimeter of the tank to see how much of the foam has separated from the tank. I suspect it may be quite extensive, given that it appears to be an issue with the paint adhesion . . . unless the paint adhesion issue is localized.
Anyway, I'm not sure how much of the dis-assembly work that I will get done in one day, but we shall see. Temperatures have been above freezing during the day for about 1 week, So, the 'frozen' foam may be thawed out by now.
Last edited by tpenfield; 01-16-2014 at 04:49 AM.
01-21-2014, 04:40 AM
#39
Registered
Thread Starter
Helm Seat Removal:
I spent some more time yesterday working on the boat . . . got the helm seat removed and opened up the deck hatch to view and inspect the fuel tank bay. The helm seat covers the forward starboard corner of the deck hatch, so it has to come out.
First the helm seat:
I found some documentation on the Internet on how to remove the helm seat. There are some screws located under the cup holders that hold the seat assembly to the sidewall. The screws merely hold the seat assembly down onto two retaining clips.
Then there are 4 bolts on the base of the seat. There is also some wiring for courtesy lights that gets disconnected.
Once the screws and bolts are removed, the seat assembly pulls away from the floor and wall of the cockpit.
I turned the seat assembly on end just to see if I could further disassemble it in order to get it out of the boat in several pieces. I would estimate that the seat assembly weighs 250-300 lbs.
After a while, I found a way to separate the seat portion from the backrest and base assembly, making it more manageable to remove.
So I was able (barely) to get the helm set out of the boat in two pieces.
Here is a video of the day, starting with the seat removal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnHX6sj9B7w I have the seat pieces stored in the garage for the duration of the project. With the seat assembly removed, I could now start to remove the deck hatch, which would expose the fuel tank bay.
I spent some more time yesterday working on the boat . . . got the helm seat removed and opened up the deck hatch to view and inspect the fuel tank bay. The helm seat covers the forward starboard corner of the deck hatch, so it has to come out.
First the helm seat:
I found some documentation on the Internet on how to remove the helm seat. There are some screws located under the cup holders that hold the seat assembly to the sidewall. The screws merely hold the seat assembly down onto two retaining clips.
Then there are 4 bolts on the base of the seat. There is also some wiring for courtesy lights that gets disconnected.
Once the screws and bolts are removed, the seat assembly pulls away from the floor and wall of the cockpit.
I turned the seat assembly on end just to see if I could further disassemble it in order to get it out of the boat in several pieces. I would estimate that the seat assembly weighs 250-300 lbs.
After a while, I found a way to separate the seat portion from the backrest and base assembly, making it more manageable to remove.
So I was able (barely) to get the helm set out of the boat in two pieces.
Here is a video of the day, starting with the seat removal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnHX6sj9B7w I have the seat pieces stored in the garage for the duration of the project. With the seat assembly removed, I could now start to remove the deck hatch, which would expose the fuel tank bay.
01-21-2014, 04:45 AM
#40
Registered
Thread Starter
Deck Hatch Removal:
Once I had the helm seat out of the boat, I could fully access the deck hatch. It covers most of the cockpit floor.
There are screws and caulking that hold the deck hatch into place. So, it was a matter of unscrewing everything and cutting the caulking.
After the deck hatch was unfastened, I lifted the hatch from one side. It too was fairly heavy, more so that I was hoping for. I will have to get a helper in order to lift it out of the boat.
However, with the fuel tank bay exposed, I was able to get a a better look at the tank and the foam adhesion. The front face of the tank seemed to be in fairly decent shape, in terms of the foam and paint adhesion. The foam did not pull the paint off of the tank. However on the port side of the tank, the paint came right off with the foam, as I removed some pieces.
The port rear corner of the tank had a visible and fairly large separation between the tank and the foam. It looks as though the foam has shrunk in that area, puling away from the tank and creating the gap that you can see in the picture below. There was also similar evidence of separation on the starboard side.
Here is a video of the deck hatch removal and preliminary inspection of the fuel tank bay and the foam adhesion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-naizJCrJpE At this point it is a matter of seeing how easily the tank will come out, given that it has separated from the foam at the rear and along the sides of the tank. First, I will have to remove the waste tank, pump out the few gallons of fuel that remain in the tank, and disconnect the hoses and wiring.
It will probably be a couple of weeks until I can get back to it, as I am heading to Florida for a few days . . .
Once I had the helm seat out of the boat, I could fully access the deck hatch. It covers most of the cockpit floor.
There are screws and caulking that hold the deck hatch into place. So, it was a matter of unscrewing everything and cutting the caulking.
After the deck hatch was unfastened, I lifted the hatch from one side. It too was fairly heavy, more so that I was hoping for. I will have to get a helper in order to lift it out of the boat.
However, with the fuel tank bay exposed, I was able to get a a better look at the tank and the foam adhesion. The front face of the tank seemed to be in fairly decent shape, in terms of the foam and paint adhesion. The foam did not pull the paint off of the tank. However on the port side of the tank, the paint came right off with the foam, as I removed some pieces.
The port rear corner of the tank had a visible and fairly large separation between the tank and the foam. It looks as though the foam has shrunk in that area, puling away from the tank and creating the gap that you can see in the picture below. There was also similar evidence of separation on the starboard side.
Here is a video of the deck hatch removal and preliminary inspection of the fuel tank bay and the foam adhesion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-naizJCrJpE At this point it is a matter of seeing how easily the tank will come out, given that it has separated from the foam at the rear and along the sides of the tank. First, I will have to remove the waste tank, pump out the few gallons of fuel that remain in the tank, and disconnect the hoses and wiring.
It will probably be a couple of weeks until I can get back to it, as I am heading to Florida for a few days . . .
