Important message to all my FMO friends. Please read.
 

For the time being I have decided to withdraw from taking a leadership role in organizing any additional offshore boating events.
For some time now, I have had concerns as to what my liability is as an organizer, if there were to be a serious boating accident at one of our events. At this time I have been following a thread in General Boating Discussion called “Smoke on the Water Poker Run is no more“. ( link attached ) http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...d.php?t=176601
In reading some of the information in that thread, I think I am well advised to pause and take some time to sit down with my insurers and seek out legal advise on how I can continue to be involved and protect myself.
I think most understand my love for this sport and willingness so far, to share that with others. I have enjoyed immensely meeting so many new friends that I would never have met, had it not been for FMO.

Perhaps Ft Myers Offshore is at a crossroads where we have grown to the point where we should become an incorporated boat club with officers and directors and insurance to cover them ? This will require a membership fee, which so far we have been able to avoid.

As we operate now without a club structure, there are no rules as such to help put on safe events. All of my Poker Run experience from the past, with PRA and FPC and others have required use of life jackets, safety tethers hooked up, no alcohol until the run is finished etc.

Or should we go the other way where we give up on major organized events and just use this forum for small, informal get togethers on and off the water ?

Right now I seem to have more questions than answers.

Feel free to express your opinions and together we can determine the direction that FMO should be taking.

Also if anyone would like to come forward and assume a leadership roll and fill the void, they will have my full support.

Bob Barnhart

Hi Bob-

I was wondering when this was going to happen. Aarron and I were having this conversation on Sunday. We couldn't come up with a good solution either......

I would llike to take this opportunity to thank you for all that you have done for FMO. I have meet alot of amazing people here in Fort Myers that I would have never met without participating on these runs that you organized.

If I can help in anyway please let me know.

Don Gardner

Don, this is not the end of the line by any means. I have received a couple of phone calls already where a possible solution will be looked at. We will get this fixed I am sure.:D
Bob

Bob,

I, Like Don was also wondering if/when this was going to happen, and would like to thank you for taking charge up to this point, you have done an awesome job. I couldnt believe the hardware and the amount of people that were on the Thanksgiving weekend run. I dont think we have much choice of either becoming organized, or not doing organized runs. We can call it an unorganized meet all we want, but as soon as we post, and start asking head counts etc. it can be seen as an organized event. My vote is to stay informal for now, at least for me since I am not really local, announce a meeting spot, and make it known that everyone is on their own from there. Of course if the majority decides to make it an organized club with dues etc. you can still count me in.

Rick

:D:ernaehrung004::D

I Had A Similar Situation Up North Where We Used To Run Our Prepared Cars On A Private Track. The Owner Of The Track Ended Up Having A Waiver Drawn Up To Protect Himself And Others If The Ugly Happened. We All Basically Were Assuming All Responsibilites For Our Own Actions. There Were No Formal Invitations To Events And It Was More Or Less A "meeting" Of A Group For Soem Fun. It Always Seams That Once Events Are To Formalized And Overly Structured The Fun Of It All Is Lost. I Hope Not The Case. I Was Looking Forward To Meeting Up With The Group And Having A Good Time. I'm Sure You Guys Aren't Finished Just Yet! Look Forward To Safe Boating In 2008.

When all this started it was Bob, myself and couple other guys going out for a grouper sandwich. Non of us had a clue that eventually it would attract as many participants as we have today. Sometime around last February's benefit the area's number of boaters with offshore interests was obvious and overwhelming. People looking to learn the waters, new places to go, friends and a pleasant afternoon of boating.

The liability that Bob mentioned is a concern. Other issues that are not so glaring but still exists is the time it takes to organize for that many boats and people, the commitments for a large group at restaurants, marinas etc. I was relieved for Bob and our group when so many people drove to Marco for lunch New Years Day even though the weather blew us off the water. Many may not know this but Guy Harvey's is usually closed until 4pm NYD. They opened and had a staff there just for us.

Over time we had several informal discussions and decided the group should stay informal from the start. That is where the term "Fun Run" was coined instead of poker run. However, even this web site may be conclusive enough that we would be considered an organized group.

We have one of the greatest boating areas in the world. Everybody to this point has been considerate and respectful of their fellow boaters and equipment. Hopefully this can be worked out. There is still nothing wrong with a few guys boating somewhere together for lunch. I will be listening and waiting like the rest of you for the results of Bob's research.

I like the idea of a waiver..... Even if it becomes organized and dues are collected, count us in. We have only really been on one fun run (thanksgiving) we were at the new years but only ran with Bob due to the weather. These events are too fun though so dues wouldnt be a problem

Bob, as you know, I have been there, done that with the performance boat club of canada. As a director and VP for years, it just became too overwhelming of a chance for something bad to happen and the directors liability insurance coverage we could get was overpriced and would have basically left myself,Anthony and the other directors hung out to dry in the event of a major law suit. The onl;y real option we had left was individual "event insurance" which came with a fairly hefty premium of around 5 to 6 K per day. Those numbers were not welcomed by the membership at large because of the cost added to each event entry fee. No proper coverage, no club events. Period. Although I don't have milions to lose, I wasn't about to risk what I have for the sake of organized boating events. Thats the number one reason the President and myself descided to call it quits after 17 seasons. Yes, it sucks but in a world of hungry litigation lawyers and leftist judges making rediculous damage awards, what are ya going to do.

Bob:

As we discussed, I had similar concerns after organizing the Thanksgiving weekend run with Aaron. Fortunately, we have not had any mishaps. As we discussed last evening, I agree with the course of action you propose in this thread.

I will continue to work on this problem with you as I have enjoyed meeting new friends and getting rides on some awesome machines while my boat has been under contract (yes, there is money!).

I look forward to being able to do a lunch run without legal counsel.

Tom

"handing out drinks" brings up another huge liability issue all of its own.

Not if the restaurant is "selling" drinks, then it falls on their liability, so long as we are there "on our own":D

Sooo....Can we still meet for drinks at the Cabana Bar?????

Thank You Bob. You are a Champion for FMO.
I hope that something can be worked out.
But if not, ...
Still need to go somewhere for lunch by boat.

As for the reasons that this is happening, ...
It is to bad in todays society, that we as adults can not accept responsibility for our actions. And to make a bad situation worse, there are vulture attorney's that prey on these circumstances. Will our society ever "Grow Up?"

I vote for ...
Still reading the "Voters" pamphlet.

Maybe the best thing to do as some have eluded to is to set up lunch get togethers and everyone gets there however they get there ie. by car, by boat. if some end up running together on the way there then so be it. Bob I have said this before to you but I really think that the comradery that occurs at the luncheons and friendships developed are the true benefit of any of our runs. Hell when we run I only am with the pack for about 2-3 minutes anyway:D. We can definately figure this out. In flying clubs that I have run with we would have pankake breakfasts where a destination was selected and everyone met there. No liability for an organizer for crashes on the way there that I know of

John

Like we started out, a few guys going out to have a grouper sandwich.

No harm in a few boats hooking up to run together. Eliminate the mass start at a common meeting point, set a time for lunch and for those who need help with navigation etc arrangements can be made for them to follow somebody. No different than several cars following each other to dinner.

The days of 20-40 boats running together would be over.

I'm all for keeping it simple and selecting a lunch stop to ultimately meet at, whether by boat or car. I've got the slowest boat anyway. The most enjoyable part for me is crushing some nasty seas, then looking at all the hardware tied up a the docks; I feel like I'm at the Miami boat show.

What engines do you have and what is your top speed? We were in the 382 Formula when you were on your way into marco and we were on our way out... Your boat sounded SWEEEET, looked really good too!!

I don't think so!!!!!

Bob I wold like to thank you for your huge contributions to FMO, your willingness to help, teach, and befriend anybody around you is both admirable and inspiring.

I have had a few conversations with you and others about how to solve this problem. I will continue to think with others about coming up with a solution. Until then I guess we are just a group of friends going boating together on any given
day.

Thanks again Bob for your past leadership.
Aaron Wolf.

We've only been on a few runs and we've had a great time, so we really don't want to see them end.

Since there is no money involved in the fun runs I don't see how anyone could interpret them as anything other than friends going boating. Groups of friends always meet at a given place such as car shows etc. If someone gets hurt is the person who invited them responsible?

Frank,

You do make a good point. I suppose at some point someone knowledgable in the liabilities concerning this should be consulted rather than us guessing around about it. And if I know Bob he has already talked to someone in more of the know than us. Regardless I do agree that I do not want the spirit of what we have all enjoyed to move on. So if we have to change the way we go about it for a while until we can work something better out I am still all for it. Bob If I can help in anyway I stand ready.

As a side not to Craig and Jack. I think there may have to be an upcoming race between the three of us as I do beleive that I have the slowest boat in the group. Lets say meet in the playground at the end of recess:D

John

We can start at the Naples pier first thing in the morning. Bob can look out his window at dusk to see which one of us is rounding Caxambas first!!!

As a side not to Craig and Jack. I think there may have to be an upcoming race between the three of us as I do beleive that I have the slowest boat in the group. Lets say meet in the playground at the end of recess:D

John[/QUOTE]

I'll take a piece of that action!! Hey, it's just a co-incidence that three out of the four of us are in Bajas, right??

Seriously, Bob, everything you do for FMO and offshore are greatly appreciated, and anything I can do to help, I'm ready.
There has got to be some way around this liabilty issue.

Tom

John, you and everyone else on OSO / FMO are too kind. I wish I could say that I have consulted the professionals that I need to talk to, but I was back in my office today for the first time in over 3 weeks so I'm afraid it was all business today. And oh yes, I had to pick up that replacement Blackberry ( my lifeline ! ) so I am connected again.:D
I expect that by early next week I will be armed with the information I need to know. As some have said, we have a really good thing going on here and we do not want to loose it. I will do everything I can to get this fixed and get back to what we all enjoy so much - a great day on the water and the camaraderie at lunch and in between runs.:D
Bob

[QUOTE]As a side not to Craig and Jack. I think there may have to be an upcoming race between the three of us as I do beleive that I have the slowest boat in the group. Lets say meet in the playground at the end of recess

John[/quote]

I'll take a piece of that action!! Hey, it's just a co-incidence that three out of the four of us are in Bajas, right??[/QUOTE]

Remember I'm pushing a 24 year old antique that weighs 13,000 pounds with only 1100 horsepower total. 69 on GPS.

I had a buddy weigh the trailer with the boat on it. Total trailer weight 14,710 pounds. Trailer certificate had the trailer weight at 1,635 pounds.

I hope you guys still have your fun runs, I was hoping to hitch a ride on one this year:D As a suggestion you might ask to have the name of this forum changed to something that does not imply you are a club, more like Southwest FL Gulf Region, then just post as a bunch of friends and co organize the runs and don't mention club at all. It will probably not be as easy without a clear cut leader but the more you muddy the waters on if there is a leader or a if there is a club, suing an organization under this circumstances would be pretty difficult
good luck

Donna, you know I always have an seat open for you and Ian when you get down.:D
Also I do not have the same concerns for the Georgian Bay tour planned for this coming summer as I see that as more of a cruise at moderate speed. Some of our fun runs have been run at poker run speeds with a few boats going over the horizon ( Harpoon Harry Run this year & Everglades City Run last year ) in the first few minutes. :eek:
Bob

I'll take a piece of that action!! Hey, it's just a co-incidence that three out of the four of us are in Bajas, right??[/QUOTE]

Remember I'm pushing a 24 year old antique that weighs 13,000 pounds with only 1100 horsepower total. 69 on GPS.

I had a buddy weigh the trailer with the boat on it. Total trailer weight 14,710 pounds. Trailer certificate had the trailer weight at 1,635 pounds.[/QUOTE]


Do you have room for one more slow boat???
Ok, I weigh 9,000 lbs. less, ...
but you have 600 hp more than me.
And my best gps has been 67.9 so far.
This should be a fun!
On your mark, get set, ..........

Do you have room for one more slow boat???
Ok, I weigh 9,000 lbs. less, ...
but you have 600 hp more than me.
And my best gps has been 67.9 so far.
This should be a fun!
On your mark, get set, ..........[/QUOTE]

Yeah,

He has 875 more horse than me:D

Terry,

At 67.9 you will be passing me like I'm standing still !!!!

Yea Craig but we'll be driving the hell out of our boats, and you'll be sitting on the back seat drinking a cocktail.:ernaehrung004:

Tom

Baja 38 special

Weight with fuel and passengers 11,500 lbs
Horsepower 830HP
Top speed 63 mph GPS

I think I got all of you except maybe Craig as his boat is longer and heavier with similar power.

John

Bob,
Being in the public entertainment business for 30 years I too went through those liability pains. Hailing business in NY made it worse, the king state of scum attorneys and frequent court awarded settlements. I was running scared once and insurance poor. Fact is anybody can sue for anything and insurance companies settle out of court, right or wrong. The more insurance, the bigger the target. My solution, less insurance, don't worry about anything that hasn't happened,and do all the business I can. Fight ALL claims. Fire the insurance company that offers a settlement.
You keep doing what your doing. Don't let people ruin your fun. If that fishing boat deciedes to sue you because you scared a fish, then You can use my insurance company, NO charge. They don't pay claims,fight every claim to the end, and wouldn't pay if they lose. I don't think anyway, cause they never lost. This usually deters leitch attorneys cause they only take easy cases with lots of insurance and easy settlements. Their name is Smith & Wesson. If things get thick, we will just sink the litigants boat and tie their wife to the front of my skater and I will take her from sarasota to naples in 3-5's like I used to race. NO CHARGE. Jay can film it.
Harry

Well, that (post #36) certainly puts a different perspective on the issue! :)

Film at 11. :cool-smiley-011:

:rolleyes:

Interesting Harry. I guess I'm just not very hard nosed.
When I started in the home building business in Canada 27 years ago, my lawyer looked at me and said - are you nuts? One in ever 20 customers are going to try and sue you. ( I think he may have been exagerating ) So here I am now, having built 2,500 homes in that time and I can honestly say I have never been sued and have never seen the inside of a courtroom. If my building carreer had been in the USA I am sure that my experience would be quite different. This concept of "sue 'em" is very foriegn to me and scares me.
I am meeting with my insurers early this week and have been referrred to a top notch maritime lawyer to speak with. Before my return to FL later this coming week I will know better what course I should take.:D
Bob

Thanks Bob:D

Had a good meeting today with my insurers today and got the high level of comfort that I was looking for. :D Subject to them confirming our verbal discussions in the next few days I see no obstacles from an insurance standpoint.
Next the legal beagles. LOL Often they are the ones to spoil all the fun. LOL:p
I will keep you all posted, but so far so good.:D
Bob