Open Ocean Racing
 

This was posted by Top Banana from a post in the Cig forum.
The thread is about why you don't see many cigs on the current circuit racing superboat class.
This is an excellent post and deserves to be on GD forum.
Well said TB.


"I'd like to put my two cents in on this, and I apologize up front if I offend someone...but:

First of all as a business owner, I can understand the reluctance of Cigarette to spend the money trying to compete on the circuit as it is run today....and that includes all organizations. I don't know Mr Braver at all, but I am grateful he stepped in and kept this great brand alive.

Cigarette was bred for, and their reputation was made, in Ocean Racing....that sport no longer exists.

The boats may be offshore and they may actually be in the ocean, but the foundation of the sport was built on long distance races over open ocean water, in all kinds of conditions.

Now let me be clear, this is not the fault of the racers....they would race anything, anywhere. They race under these calm water conditions close to shore, because that is where the organizations ruled that they would.

Cigarette is a boat company with a core product of a deep V hull. To win in the present venues, they would have to build an all out flat water racer to compete with Fountain. Or go another route, and design and build a cat to go for the overall speed title. Neither move would do anything to enhance their strength as a brand....they already are THE BRAND.

The only way to get the boat companies back into racing with big boats is to change the format. Even if the existing organizations allowed one class to actually race offshore at one of the existing race sites. Next race held by any group in Miami, let this ocean racing class, start before all the others and go to Nassau, 185 miles of ocean conditions.

The boat companies would know that they actually had to build a race boat that would survive regardless of conditions. They would start building boats again that the public at large would like to hear about, because it would advance the whole industry in matters of safety at sea. Sponsors might even see an opportunity here.

The playing field would open up again to everyone, not just the big bucks teams. Winning would now involve navigation, preparation of the equipment, and real mental toughness on the part of the racers. Racers who could keep going when there were no fans or cameras around. Only the other racers would know if you pulled back the throttles, and took it easy when the waves got big. It was in these types of conditions that Don Aronow got the nickname "The Animal".

Over the past couple of years I have met many of the new racers and they are no different than the old guys....they just need the opportunity to race in a real ocean race.

Ask some of the old guys....we are not trying to be smug or know it all's, we just know what great races we had, and wish with all our hearts that today's racers could experience for themselves the same....believe me you would never go back.

Guys like Steve Berk, Bob Saccenti, Mark McManus, Steve Stepp, Pepe Nunez and Brownie will tell you the truth....if someone would create an ocean race again, Cigarette and a lot of other companies would jump right back in.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Real Offshore Racing!

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

ok so this got me thinking... what boat makes race now?

list the manufacturers

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

How boat bimini and back as a start. With a couple helicopters following with the footage being shown live on tvs while the inshore racing is going on, or between inshore races. Woudl be great on TV also. Where do i sign up?

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I remember when the starting line and Checkpoint 1 were 42 miles apart!
If your navigator was off a few degrees you raced many extra miles that a competitor who was on course didn't have to. Crossing the Gulfstream is always interesting and a true test of men and machine.

You guys are going to make me wish I was young and in shape again if you start this up!

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Banana
.....Guys like Steve Berk, Bob Saccenti, Mark McManus, Steve Stepp, Pepe Nunez and Brownie will tell you the truth....if someone would create an ocean race again, Cigarette and a lot of other companies would jump right back in.



I respectfully disagree. It's a different world and Poker Runs now dominate the performance boat scene. One need only pick up Hot Boat, Powerboat or read OSO to see the tremendous disparity in interest, participation and coverage.

While taking offshore racing "offshore", I believe you'll further erode interest in racing. [I say this with all due respect to past great guys who did race this way]

I doubt many companies would see true old style offshore racing as much of a marketing tool in todays world. There's just no fan base. Poker Runs on the other hand continue to grow.

Every business works with in a limited marketing budget. Where would you spend yours?

In short, I simply don't believe long distance, open ocean racing with even less media coverage and fewer fans in attendance, would entice Cigarette or any other company to jump into racing.

But hey, I've been wrong before......;)

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Why not just do it for money and bragging rights. Im sure there are enough people willing to put up a few grand in a winner take all race to nassau or wherever. Sounds like a great discovery channel special.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

All I know is the televised racing SUX this year! The classes are tiny except for Super V and the enclosed canopy boats just don't do it for me.

Factory 1 and 2 were my favorites to watch and they are non-existant on the SBI circuit. What happened to the 8-10 boat classes that were there a few years ago? :(

Although the live fan base would not be there, I would much rather see some open cockpit boats out in some BIG water running long distance on TV. Hell, I'd even buy it as a pay-per-view event!

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I would love to see some of the big cats and big V's in an offshore challenge race. I think it would help people to make educated decisions on the type of boat to help fit their particular boating needs. The question always remains and numerous threads on here about cats and V's with big power and top speed, durability engine builders and factories of having the bragging rights of such a prestigous race. Many of the poker run boats that are tuned for such high horsepower for a weekend run of a few hours...The gps systems of today would help with the navigation that wasnt available then. I think that every "offshore" manufacturer would relish a chance to prove their worth. Custom manufacturers with "pleasure" versions of the offshore boat would be able to answer the question of how their boat would handle the "rough stuff"...I would be interested in doing a race of that sort.

I agree with top Banana...its like stock car racing used to be, now "there is nothing stock about a stock car." ( Robert Duvall in Days of thunder)

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

While open racing could be considered true racing. It is difficult to develope a fan base. There simply is no readily available opportunity for fans to watch those races like the close to shore races where people can line the beaches, piers and hang out in thier boats. Its much more marketable in its current version. Would I love to see a classic race? You bet.

With the advent of GPS systems, it kinda changes the whole challenge of navigation in a race styled after the classic old races. Granted, you can solve this with rules restricting any use of GPS equipement. But how could you know if somebody didnt sneak a handheld unit in??

The best racing event to compare a classic open water race to would be something along the lines of the Baja 1000 or the Paris Dakar Rally. These are two very large and important races with huge fan bases. I am willing to bet that people would want to see who would win this style of race offshore. But you couldnt be-little it by making a race series out of it. Make it a once a year run with it being open to any and all who can comply with the requirements. Winning a race like that would give you huge bragging rights.

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if telivision can make "american choppers" a success it could do the same for an offshore event of this magnitude. the personalities are there, teh thrill of the machinery...cockpit cams, have drive cams for petes sake, they have shock cams in nascar and in nhra they mount them on the wings to film the blower explosions...

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

a small observation....

if what you want to see is offshore racing in the rough stuff, go to a Miami or Ft. Lauderdale race, ......we raced in 8 foot seas this year......

the horsepower and speeds attainable today far exceed what Don Aronow and the others had back in the '60s and '70s.....don't get me wrong, it was great hearing and reading about those races, but no one got to see much of the races as fans, perhaps when they were going out or coming in.....like Mark said, .....with the speeds today, you can't use most of it, or most of the horsepower when seas kick up, just can't do it....go no further than reviewing the lap speeds of Budweiser or any of the Super Vs in the Miami or Ft. Lauderdale races.....they were a fraction of what those boats can really run in flat water......

SBI races are true offshore races, only closer to shore and in a circuit that leads itself to fan/spectator entertainment.....that's what the sponsors want....visibility by the buying market.....really, what need is there for a navigator in a Miami to Nassau race anyways with today's technology (GPS).......I do not see a need for such a race other than to say it was done....that race proves nothing that a SBI circuit race doesn't prove......the equipment today is much more radical and stressed than the equipment 30-40 years ago......no one in the past would take or could take larger waves at greater speeds or at the speeds attainable today, so how can those races be used for comparison?............I'm not taking anything away from those races or racers, those races are a part of the offshore racing history, valuable as that, and colorful as they may be, but if you are trying to prove who has the better equipment or team, I do not think they add to the debate....SBI races can settle that, the companies (other than Fountain) just don't seem to be interested in racing because they don't sell boats.....Poker Runs seem to be the best market for the manufacturers........

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I'd put more credence in a Miami-NY or Miami- Nassau kind of race over the lightweight Nascar stuff being raced these days.

However the commercability of these type of race would be a lot more challenging... Mind you the current bickering of sanctioning bodies make racing today a hard sell also, both to spectators and sponsors.

Paris-Dakar and so forth are excellent examples, those races are run, presented and marketed as a television package that has now grown a marketable audience .

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


you do in fact need help..... plenty of help :evilb:

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I think thats the point being made Donz, you say they already have it, and the coverage is horrible...this wasnt about the current racing its why certain manufacturers dont race and would something like this bring them to the race table? without a doubt the poker runs are the big money maker, where else do people get to walk by such beautiful and expensive machines, and its like cruise nights are, it gives the owner a chance to show off his stuff. manufacturers have trailers and booths to sell shirts and merchandise. just my opinion but I think if marketed correctly it would be a huge pull. Look at how many enthuisiests are into the performance boating genre' now.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

shup you and dont hijack this thread it makes good points...:D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Offshore,

if we're talking coverage, think that has more to do with Reggie and his fleet........there doesn't seem to be much coverage other than Fountains when the tape get to be aired.....irrespective of the battles between Cigarette (mine), Viper (Wazzup) during some of the races this year,........the crowds were going nuts I heard, but nothing on TV....Fountain spends money, period. Like his boats or not, he puts his money where his mouth is.......that's why the coverage of the Reggie show......

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

okie given that, in your opinion do you think, that this type of race that TB suggested would bring other manufacturers to race...even if it was only once a year like the Dakar or Baja?

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I truly wished it would, but I do not think it would in reality because marketing is driven by fan base....I do not think there would be mass fan base other than true die hard offshore racing fans to "attend" such an event.....there just isn't much excitement for the fans.......fans want repetitive thrills from the boats roaring past them many times over the course of a race........that's where the viceral thrill is for the fans.......seeing boats deck to deck battling each other every lap.........why is NASCAR so huge?????the fans are witnessing the action consistently over an oval track, over and over again.....if Cigarette wanted to beat Fountain or Outerlimits or Activator or whoever, what better venue to do it than on a "circle track" with the face slapping over and over again?????Manufacturers other than Fountain, and now perhaps Laveycraft, simply just do not seem interested in racing....much to my disdain....however, they all show up at Poker Runs to support their product.....

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Poker Runs are real... just about anyone with a boat can enter.... Sadly when I was in KW I realized that I wont be racing anytime soon....$$$$$$$$.... where as Pokers Runs, people can participate and observe boats that someday can be owned.

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It's a catch 22 situation. Manufacturers don't want to spend money on racing because offshore racing isn't big and offshore racing isn't big because there aren't enough boats out there! :(

I appluad Fountain for the effort but the truth is from a spectator's view offshore racing has went backwards. The action and TV coverage was MUCH better 3-4 years ago.

I agree with thedonz that there was some big water at a few races this year, but unfortunately not enough boats(other than Super V) to make the racing exciting on television. Bottom line, without decent television coverage the sport will never grow. I have no idea if an long distance offshore race would help or not but like I said I would pay to see it on television if manufacturers got involved and the action was good.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I think a true offshore race would be great. The winner would not neccesarily be who had the fastest boat, but who was the toughest team that could hold out. That would show a true Diehard racer and a true offshore race boat. Not getting down on the boats today, cause there are alot of nice ones, but I would say half of them couldn't hold up like the boats of yesterday( CIG, APACHE, PANTERA. It would be great for SBI to squeeze a race from miami to bimini in this year.I agree with you offshoredrillin I think it would bring back what the true meaning of offshore racing means.

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Today's racing is a joke compared to the old days. I don't know why anyone would worry about losing the fan base, hell, there isn't a fan base now. As much as I love boat racing, I've given up trying to follow it. I can't see John Q Public caring much for today's type of racing either. Even though I know a lot about most of these boats, I can't even tell who's racing who half the time.

Now, a race that you run what you brung for a couple hundred miles, that would be interesting, and a helluva lot easier to follow. Who cares if it goes back to checkbook racing, at least it was racing we could understand.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Open Ocean = Proving Ground
Race them in open ocean conditions and see if the Cigarettes are still as good as they used to be. See if an old Apache will still make the grade against a Saber or new Apache from Mcmanus.
I believe a race of this type would expose the wannabe, potato chip cored ,ultra lite layup, stepped lake boats and prove a true offshore hull's worth.
If an 06 Fountain 47 kicks an old Cigs a$$ so be it. Reggie proved he ain't playing and his boat is showing it.
If an old pantera with outboards whips Reggies butt fine.
I strongly believe a race of this type would be great for choosing engine builders,reliability would be the winning equation.
For outboards did the Verado or Etec prove which is more reliable?

As you can see I would love to see one open ocean race per year. TV has changed. Lots of interest in motorsports these days.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Yep I agree a one time race every year would be great! But I would like to see some "Factory" type racing as well as an open, run what ya brung class. I've always liked the Factory racing because of the equality of the powerplants. Then it's may the best boat, driver and throttleman win! :D

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There was plenty of press coverage in the late 80s and early 90s when Don Johnson, Chuck Norris, Kurt Russell and other notables were racing.
As soon as these guys quit, the coverage went back to normal.

(There were more babe spectators around when those guys were racing.)

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

i know nothing about marketing or advertising but i would love to see a long distance ocean race once a year. Isnt there atleast 20 guys with really big wallets that would do it just for the hell of it.? It would somehow get coverage i bet..a special on speedvision or spike channel,etc etc. Ok..hell ill say it cuz ive had a few beers..can we have some high profile nascar guys be involved (they could ride along and work a fake set of throttles? or read the gps and say good old boy type stuff on intercom?)

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instead of running most race coarses up and down the beach in a 5 - 6 mile coarse maybe change them around like nascar and open wheel circuits do. run a few open ocean races in the mix of the season would be exciting.

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I think it would be good to have a race like this around an island like St Thomas. It could be viewed from land and recorded easily.

Then after the race, :evilb: islands are great.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

What happened to the Miami NYC race that is/was planned?

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All it takes is a few boats and an organizer to pull off a long distance race. So, in the words of an old manager of mine - JFDI (Just Fu3king Do It).

Boats go to the Bahamas all the time. Invite some of your buddys and call it a race. Whoever makes it there first wins and has bragging rights.

Screw spectators, sponsors and whiners. It's going to take a few to shell out some cash to pull off the first one. "If you build it, they will come". You can argue all you want. I just want to know who has the balls to pull it off. No one is stopping us from doing it.

I challenge the Florida Powerboat Club to do a member race to Bimini and back. The winner keeps a trophy for one year until the next one. They do poker runs there, so why not call it a race.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I read this whole thread, and now we're getting somewhere.

I think Love Machine is right, the racers need to define the course and settings they want to run, and then a sanctioning body (God help us...) will pony up.

I would love to see REAL offshore racing. We have the technology today that a long-haul race could easily be televised. No, with GPS it won't be the same grandeure of the "old-days", but it would be more of a test of man and machine.

Fan Base - :rolleyes:
We don't have any fan base to speak of. Let's be honest. OSO has what, 30,000 members? We're the die hard fans.
Last year I was in KW watching the races, sitting next to a gal that was dating a member of the Swipes team - she couldn't believe that my wife and I actually came to KW "just for the races".
This year, I was in St. Pete - again, small turnout on the beach.
My wife likes to watch the racing, but she even said "this is better on TV". I have to agree.
Even though they are running a short cirlce course, you actually see very little of it.
So, cut the crap, let's do the real thing!
I'll watch the televised race. but I will miss "feeling" the sound of the motors.

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I agree, I would rather watch Talladega or Daytona from home as you get full coverage, a short track is better to view in person. I would think It would start off the same as poker runs, a few guys doing it first to check out the logistics, then start promoting it to the manufacturers. As I had said in my first post, it would be a great opportunity for manufacturers to prove the durability of there "offshore" boat...My wallet isnt big, but heck I'm in...

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Rob is right - in Nascar, a short track is better to see LIVE.
I've seen a few races at MIS - it was kinda boring - you missed half the race.
In powerboat racing, even a short course, it doesn't offer much for the fans. You still don't see much, and it's hard to tell what's going on.
In St. Pete this year, I had one of the "spotters" asking me (I had binoculars) which boat "broke" after we saw - in the distance - a boat lumbering into the milling area.
Live Camera's, Helicopters... That's the way to do it.

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DVD movie cameras are cheap, load up all the boats with cameras pointing every which way, stick some on helicopters/small planes. Tape record every crew conversation, have each team edit and send in their best stuff, edit it for a couple more months, and you would have one incredible show!!!!!!

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There was great video coverage of the old off shore races, look at Freeze Frame and Big Seas. ESPN could do it or buy it.
A race like the Baja off road race or Dakar, isn't spectator friendly either but it gets done because there is a market for it.

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You were around when they squeezed dead ducks for propulsion, you can elaborate about the good old days... :D

Very Good thread BTW. Sanctionnig bodies should print this,,,, and study it.

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thats a great point and it gets done because the manufactureres can say our shock, tire, rim, coolant etc. tamed the baja.. and those tires make it to offroad vehicles, same as the boat parts would creep into our aftermarket.

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As for coverage...

The best I have seen in the last five years as been the Documentary about the Race in Venezuela where Mike Seebold and that Ilmore Eliminator took part... It was very interesting, backed by CITGO and on a descent Network...

People out of boating talked to me about that. And this was in South America so a race like NY-Miami if packaged properly for TV would Kill...

Convincing a few big names to do it would also not hurt as mentioned above about star power. I know I'd watch Paris Hilton in KiloKat's rig getting her tight caboose pile driven in 8' waves at 70 MPH... :D Or something like that...

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Finally a topic to sink the teeth into

As most of you know Bob L and I put on Poker runs here in Michigan, (Smoke On The Water & Blue Water Thunder) but Cherie and I also put on offshore races in Michigan a few years ago

We have been talking about this very subject for a while and I have talked to a few racers about it as well

A few things to consider – Ever watch the DAKAR off road races?? Ever watch TOUR DE FRANCE?? These and many other events are NOT spectator friendly but get plenty of air time and have a HUGE following.

We have been talking about putting on a race from Grand Haven Michigan to Milwaukee Wisconsin and back. This would be across what could be some of the most challenging water ever!! (LAKE MICHIGAN) The event would be approximately 150 Miles in total coverage and be truly a test of man and machine (Navigation is simple with GPS)

Something most people don’t understand is the sheer logistics and COSTS to put on an event of this size, or of any magnitude

It is easy to sit in front of computers and say “This needs to be done” but organizing these events takes many things not the least of which is time, money, commitment, money, support, money, and ohhh yea MONEY

The reason we continue to put on Poker Runs and not races is, First off the lack of politics (Even this is changing in poker runs) and the costs of putting on Race are huge and there is little to no way to garner revenues to cover costs

Sponsors know that selling there product is much easier at a Poker Run and they have more access to guys and girls looking for there product, this is not going to change nor should it.

There are many other mainstream sponsors available if an event is marketed to the masses not just the current boaters

Let me tell you all no one is more passionate about offshore events then yours truly!! If Cherie and I could get enough support and MONEY we WOULD produce a true OFFSHORE event that would set the racing community on its ear.

We know how to do it, we have done it before, and can do it again, and all it takes is money, time and a lot of support

I am convinced that marketing of this event would be key and TV coverage mandatory. The true spectators will come out anyway and watch the start, the turn around, and the finish. Not to mention race village and other activities. To broaden the spectators you need GREAT TV and great MARKETING and then garner your new offshore enthusiast from the millions of households that would watch it at home but won’t go out to the beach to watch it

This formula holds true for current racing as well. I personally like the new format of racing so I can watch it, but I don’t think it matters is if it is onshore or offshore, if it is marketed properly. It is 100% necessary to build fans, or future fans through other mediums beside the race course it self. We are already fans we need to attract NEW FANS

When racing was done here in Michigan in the 80s, and was run “true offshore” the spectator fleet was still amazing and the response was great!

Anyone wanting to dump a load of cash in my lap I WILL stand up and put on an OFFSHORE event that will be second to anything anyone has seen before. Between Cheri and I we have proven experience we just don’t have the resources

Lots of armchair promoters out there!! We have proven our self’s, and can do it again!! Anyone want to help get the money together ????? I am talking LOTS of money here gang, you have no idea what all of this would cost this can be done trust me we have been looking into it for some time.

By the way I am dead serious about this

Marc