Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

LostinBoston
I think the most exciting part of offshore boating are the rare times when 3-5' swells are well defined and seperated which allow long bursts of speed through the "valleys" between the waves. If the wind and angle is right, you could surf these valleys for miles!

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Agreed!
But with my lil' Baja, I got a BOUNCE METER absolutely free!
Any time the going gets a bit too rough, or the speed envelope gets a bit too aggressive, my bounce meter lets me know right away.

I've been married to my bounce meter for almost 41 years ..... :evilb:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I used a Bayliner 20' out of CI for about 3 years and loved it. Went to the islands and all. When I moved up to the Baja, as you know, it was like night and day. I figure a few more years before this boat runs its course, and then the big decision comes. Go with what you did (bigger offshore), or go slip a 30-35' Tollycraft Flybridge and relax at my waterfront condo. I am only 32, but have 2 kids, so that sounds appealing, especially with all the toys that goes with it (kayaks, dinghis, and Jet Skis.)

Either way, for us it is CI. My father used to slip a boat in MDR, and that world is so different. I like the rural feel of CI, plus the fact that you never have to wait in line for ANYTHING, no matter the season.

Look forward to seeing you out there in a few weeks

Chris

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I know what ya mean! Been out on days where at cruise speed I pick up 2-3 mph on the GPS riding down the trough of the wave, loose 2-3 mph going up the back. :cool:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I've been thinking on and off the best least expensive way to live on the water would be with a 50' or so early eighties
Hatteras, like this one:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-10983.html

Being single you can think crazy thoughts and with a soon to be full travel schedule, I would seldom use a house, waste when you are never living in it. For a family a Tollycraft or something sim would be a great way to have a water front vaction place that can switch locations with a turn of the key.........

To really gain going up the back hit the sticks at the top and really fly. :D

Good topic, one of my fav. destinations for multiple activities, windsurfing, even fishing, playing in the rough stuff; “Cape Disappointment” has the U.S Coast Guards lifeboat in the surf environment training school there for a reason!

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Found that out the "hard way" my first time out!
Remember, as we get older, we become like the housing market.
All we want is a "soft landing" .....

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

"bounce meter"...That's good! Congrats on the long and healthy marriage. I say healthy, cause if she let your crazy azz buy a sport boat at 61, I can see why you're still with her! :drink:

Chris,

I've lived on Hollywood beach almost my whole life. boated out of C.I. Harbor since I was 8! Worked for the Scarab dealer cleaning and fueling boats when I was 12. I too love it here and always have culture shock when going to Marina Del Rey, Huntington, Newport or Long Beach. In all the years of running through hull non-muffled exhaust, I've only been talked to about it one time. And that was because my friend that kept his Tiger on the lift in one of the channels had a grumpy neighbor. Problem solved though. He just bought the T/S Gun.

By the way, if you guys want to see the difference in running tab/wet and running the boat trimmed up and loose/dry. You should watch that Apache video that was up yesterday. I think they took it down though. But if you get a chance watch it. The first boat (Warpath) is running in some big water with tabs down pushing that huge 24% V into the oncoming swell. The second boat (Team Apache) is running loose (most likely trying to get more speed) and landing transom first a lot. That's why that deep V is there, to push through the rough stuff! Tabs down and punch it! :D

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

[QUOTE=ratman]damn bro, did you really say that? wussie
QUOTE]


fUUUUUU*CK YOU! :D :D

I don't know if you can tell. But in that picture that I posted of the rough water. That light mast is 30' high. The white water is as high as it. At time the water fully ingulfed the light mast. That is not fun to boat in. Now if you look at the picture where I'm running in front of the break wall, look out past the break wall and look at the water. White caps with 4-6's that day. that was a fun day to run. Except the holes in between were HUGE! Threw some passengers to the floor a couple of times. Felt like I was sky diving with the boat!! :eek: :drink:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I took a friend and his " bounce meter" on a poker run! Perfect seas for some nice hang time off the swells. Everyone was havin a blast except her so I was asked to go easy for the rest of the day. We made the most of it but I wont make that mistake ever again!

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Just a little tab and that trip/stuff would have never happened. :cool:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Time it right and you can still land softly, sometimes! :D


Tip for passengers; do not drink 26'er of peach snaps and a few beer while fishing in the calm. It will get rough on the way back and passing out on the floor is no fun, bouncing up and down on marine carpet is not only "rough" it hurts!!!!! :drink:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I sh*t you not, we were stone sober. I don't drink while running the boat in the ocean....Now lakes a different story :drink:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Agreed 100%...that was my comment on that thread. Why not just run a bit of tab. They were running that thing WAAAAY too loose for those conditions.

By the way Panther, why did they take the video down and how do we view it again?

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Just one more reason to run offshore in a Baja .....
My Baja's bounce meter comes with a "kill switch".
"Honey, goin' out for a couple of hours, be back later!"

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I heard rumors of copywrite infringement.... :eek: Petty BS... :rolleyes:

Lucky I right clicked and "saved target as", it's saved on my computer now! :evilb:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Passenger's should be encouraged to drink until they pass out, especially those that complain!

I've only boated on lakes a few times; one would be considered small (Cultus Lake in B.C), the thing I did'nt like compared to the Pacific was when it kicked up was the washing machine effect, found that needed more technique to deal with over the ocean. Not that I'm trying to change your drinking pattern's. In my end of the pacific we have a pass or channel passage way that you get rip tides that's much like washing machine on some lakes, but at least you can avoid them on the pacific.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

:confused: Looks like it's still there to me. just watched it again! :D

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Yep, "washing machine" chop is much harder to find a sweet spot because it's coming from every direction and that rogue boat wake may be coming to the side at any time! That's what I boat in 95% of the time. Even the "small" stuff demands your attention!

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Easy way to explain the dif. and to some degree the technique. I did the orientation flight in a P-51 (Crazy Horse) in Kissimee. That sucker is so fast that every even slight power change requires a constant trim change to keep it in the sweet spot, even on a calm day for flying it's constant finding the sweet spot. Lakes even with the small stuff are like that. Fly any small single engine Cessna 172 say once you find the trim and sweet spot, not much work after that. On my few lake outings I commented that the conditions are not that rough compared to the ocean, it was just above small stuff conditions, but washing machine. Tossed my 22 Whaler around like a toy, find the sweet spot and like you said a wake from the side would through you off. Ocean once you find the right trim, speed, sweet spot, 9 times out of 10 you are going to hit and land most waves the same. The same Whaler in fairly good rough stuff, was pretty dang solid and predictable. It liked to plow into and smash most waves, it was a better ride to lift the bow up a little and even give a little throttle over the top, gave her a bit of forward momentum and smoother landings, as opposed to smash wave lift the bow and come straight down butt first...... Take 6 roller's on the ocean over smaller washing machine on a lake any-day of the week.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I believe that the angle of attack, the boats direction as compared to the prevailing wind and swells, probably has the most influence in determining a "sweet spot" when running offshore.

It seems that once a comfortable trim has been established for your cruising speed, the angle of attack by itself can change the characteristics of the run. Even when confronted by a "washing machine" chop, this angle seems to determine the severity of the ride.

When I make the 12-mile run from Channel Islands to Ventura, I sometimes end up running an additional 3-4 miles out to sea in order to create a better angle to reach my destination. Even with the extra distance traveled, my actual elapsed time doesn't seem to increase much because I am able to run comfortably at a much greater speed.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

In ocean with nice spaced rollers, or even closer together "chop" angle of attack is more controlable because it's more how you stear to hit that wave, sweet spot is consistant over washing machine that constantly changes your steering pattern and spot.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Nothing floats (in the air) and lands like a whaler. There is no other feeling like it in a boat. I absolutely love 'em. the 22 (Outrage if I'm not istaken) is the best boat in their line up. IMHO.

Now, in regards to sloppy water and swell. the problem with Channel Islands area is there is both. and when it gets to be both it's NASTY! Again, look at the first picture I posted on this thread. Confused water with 6' swells. I'll pass. It's the little side waves that slam directly on the flat spot of the V near the transom when you land that rattles your bones.

I agree to a certain extent. I would rather have a large swell in the ocean than confused water on a lake in my Baja. In the Cig it just punches through until it's small craft warning time....then I call no joy.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Where? I wanted to show it to a friend.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Here you go. :D I love the launch 48 seconds into it. Nice! :evilb:

Apache Vid

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

now your talkin :D

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

An inexpensive way to learn the basics would be to buy the book Fast Powerboat Seamanship : The Complete Guide to Boat Handling, Navigation, and Safety You can get a used copy for about 6 bucks.

After you read it and want to learn more from a Pro, take Tres Martins course, you'll never regret it and have a great time doing it.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

WOW! :eek:
Now I understand how you can stuff it!
Correct me if I'm wrong ..... but it seems that if you launch at an angle which allows the drive to return to the water first, it's impact, and resulting drag will virtually pull the nose down hard into the water.

It make sense that trimming down will make this type of launch less probable, but where is the balance point?
In average 2-4' seas, how much of the hull should be in the water to achieve a reasonable balance?

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

[QUOTE=StillHaulin@61It make sense that trimming down will make this type of launch less probable, but where is the balance point?[/QUOTE]

Every hull is different, so you have to find it. Mine is right before the hull really loosens up for top speed. It's hard to describe but you can kind of feel it slightly holding you back and keeping the boat more level. This obviously scrubs speed but it also makes the boat stay level. Like I said, it's about neutral trim and slightly negative tab.

Unfortunately the only way to find the "edge" is to go past it a few times. So get some passengers that don't scare easily! :evilb:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Perfect, thank you. :cool:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I wonder how a 23' hull would react with a slightly negative tab, but a slightly positive trim. Which device would dominate, the trim tabs or the outdrive?

Seas permitting, I'll make a solo run on Saturday to try and find this elusive "edge". Obviously, I'll keep my speed down during this learning curve, but is there any kind of warning sign before going OVER this edge?

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

You need to mark on your drive/tab indicator the neutral point. This will help you immensly.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I agree, especially the tabs. I ALWAYS know where my tabs are!

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Yep, the bow pointing toward the sky! :evilb:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

I just gotta say that Apache video was the $hit!! :evilb: Thought those crazy mofo's were going to flip at the end :eek: :drink:


Sorry for the hijack.......proceed with discussion :cool:

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

[QUOTE=noboat][QUOTE=StillHaulin@61It make sense that trimming down will make this type of launch less probable, but where is the balance point?[/QUOTE]


The Outrage replaced my model the Revenge; same hull just different deck styling, the latter version is nicer looking. If people are looking for a good center console with decent rough water capabilities in the 22 ft. range check out an Outrage.

The 22 Revenge cuddy; has a tendency to be bow heavy, forward center of gravity. They do fly and lands very nice if done properly, right trim, and shift the center of gravity more towards the stern via throttles. Not exactly sure how to explain the technique; other than if you tried it in another 22ft boat, you may recreate that famous vertical Super boat (I think) picture! The balance point is dif. On each model and make of boat, sometimes even models using the same hull design will require different technique. My Revenge was a hammy down from my Dad. He bought it new and without a sea trial, dealer because it was in the water already, plus we lived on a beach handed us the key’s and off we went. In defense of the sales guy, we happened to arrive at the marina by boat on a day trip. So the guy just assumed experience they are boaters. Think one of the things sellers even if private should tell people even if they are boat owners, little things that may help them figure a basic technique for that boat so they don't have to learn the edge the hard way. Insurance rates might go down if, less accidents occur. The balance point on the Revenge cuddy, is going to be a lot different than the Revenge center console with no cuddy.

The best defense for not stuffing it, is figure out the center of gravity:
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NASA wrote: The center of gravity is a geometric property of any object. The center of gravity is the average location of the weight of an object. We can completely describe the motion of any object through space in terms of the translation of the center of gravity of the object from one place to another, and the rotation of the object about its center of gravity if it is free to rotate. If the object is confined to rotate about some other point, like a hinge, we can still describe its motion. In flight, both airplanes and rockets rotate about their centers of gravity. A kite, on the other hand, rotates about the bridle point. But the trim of a kite still depends on the location of the center of gravity relative to the bridle point, because for every object the weight always acts through the center of gravity.


The center of gravity is a geometric property of any object. The center of gravity is the average location of the weight of an object. We can completely describe the motion of any object through space in terms of the translation of the center of gravity of the object from one place to another, and the rotation of the object about its center of gravity if it is free to rotate. If the object is confined to rotate about some other point, like a hinge, we can still describe its motion. In flight, both airplanes and rockets rotate about their centers of gravity. A kite, on the other hand, rotates about the bridle point. But the trim of a kite still depends on the location of the center of gravity relative to the bridle point, because for every object the weight always acts through the center of gravity.
Determining the center of gravity is very important for any flying object. How do engineers determine the location of the center of gravity for an aircraft which they are designing?
In general, determining the center of gravity (cg) is a complicated procedure because the mass (and weight) may not be uniformly distributed throughout the object. The general case requires the use of calculus which we will discuss at the bottom of this page. If the mass is uniformly distributed, the problem is greatly simplified. If the object has a line (or plane) of symmetry, the cg lies on the line of symmetry. For a solid block of uniform material, the center of gravity is simply at the average location of the ^M physical dimensions. (For a rectangular block, 50 X 20 X 10, the center of gravity is at the point (25,10, 5) ). For a triangle of height h, the cg is at h/3, and for a semi-circle of radius r, the cg is at (4*r/(3*pi)) where pi is ratio of the circumference of the circle to the diameter. There are tables of the location of the center of gravity for many simple shapes in math and science books. The tables were generated by using the equation from calculus shown on the slide.
For a general shaped object, there is a simple mechanical way to determine the center of gravity:
1. If we just balance the object using a string or an edge, the point at which the object is balanced is the center of gravity. (Just like balancing a pencil on your finger!)
2. Another, more complicated way, is a two step method shown on the slide. In Step 1, you hang the object from any point and you drop a weighted string from the same point. Draw a line on the object along the string. For Step 2, repeat the procedure from another point on the object You now have two lines drawn on the object which intersect. The center of gravity is the point where the lines intersect. This procedure works well for irregularly shaped objects that are hard to balance.
If the mass of the object is not uniformly distributed, we can characterize the mass distribution by a function w(x) which indicates that the weight is some function of distance x from a reference line. If we can determine the form of the function, there are methods to perform a calculus integration of the equation. We will use the symbols "S[ ]dx" to denote the integration of a continuous function. Then the center of gravity can be determined from:
cg = (S[x * w(x)]dx) / (S[w(x)]dx)
If we don't know the actual functional form, we can numerically integrate the equation using a spreadsheet by dividing the distance into a number of small distance segments and determining the average value of the mass (or weight) over that small segment. Taking the sum of the average value times the distance times the distance segment divided by the sum of the average value times the distance segment will produce the center of gravity.
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I plan on going to Tres Martin more for interest, but, I also support his efforts in making better and therefore safer go fast driver's.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

WHAT TABS?????

We had none!!! We discovered a electrical problem on the Team Apache Boat at the start of the race. That’s why we started 15 minutes late. We had a lot of time and water to make up… Every time I touch the trim tabs or the drives. The engines would lose power. Too much voltage needed to run all the trim motors with shorted batteries. So I set all the trims to a “happy medium general type setting” and told the crew to hold on baby!!! We are going for it..

Surprisingly we finished only of few seconds behind the first boat in spite of the spine and wound up in second place UIM world Champions 1985

Ahhh the good old days

Bobby Saccenti

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Thaswhatimtalkinbout! :evilb:

AWESOME JOB!!!

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Very cool Bob! Haven't spoken to you in a while, the Apache has been running great this summer. With the drive problems squared away I've been able to put the boat through its paces! :cool:

I'll give you a call soon!

Frank

http://www.lucidideefastboats.com/im...8_07-09_9_.JPG

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

Chicken?......... no way....... I can remember going out to Anacapa Island one time and it was so sh!tty I couldn't even get up on plane without hammering so hard I thought the stringers were going to snap. It isn't so much the size of the waves in the Santa Barbara channel... it's how close they are. Try 4 foot waves that are 8 feet apart. Further south in the Santa Monica bay there can be gentle swells, round the point and start heading north and it gets nasty fast.

Re: Ocean Running Techniques
 

WOW! The man himself speaks. Thanks for the insight Bob. That was awesome. I read that the Team Apache boat was lighter than the Warpath boat and that is one of the reasons it was so loose when the Warpath boat ran so wet. Any truth to that? Or if the tabs were working in Team Apache it would've been running the same as Warpath? Both great jobs by you by the way. Just awesome!