Re: Loto snow damage.
 

when houses fall down cliffs in california is that normal? that seems to happen far more often than this.... isn't there building codes in your state that can keep a house up???? :drink:

this is the first time i have ever seen this happen, i have seen docks sit lower in the water with snow, but i have never seen anything like this, just a bad combo of ice, snow and wind...

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

I've seen dozens of crashed in carports when there was a heavy snow in Utah and the people didn't get a broom with a long handle and pull the snow off. They just aren't designed to handle any kind of snow loads. When there isn't anyone living "under" a structure... building codes are a lot more lax. The marina staff should have shoveled the snow off before it got so heavy that the structure colapsed.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Don't they have building codes in Misouri and the plain states?... Why is it everytime a little tornado comes along all the mobile homes blow away?.... Why don't they outlaw buildings in these areas?... Aren't there building codes in your state that can keep a house from blowing away?..... :D

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Just a thought but if you took a piece of pvc pipe along the peak of the roof with holes in it and a pump that pumped lake water up there, would that keep snow from building up on the roof? I don't know if it would work but if it did it wouldn't cost much to install.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Yes....there is a freak slide once in a great while and it usually has to do with excess rain with a mud slide and not too much (if at all) to do with contruction of the structure. This is a whole area of the same poor construction techniques. Do you think the will re-build the same way?

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

a house usually won't blow away, trailer parks usually do..... :D

you didn't answer my question, doesn't california have building codes that can keep houses from falling down hills when it is bright and sunny outside?? :drink: :evilb:

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

:eek:

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Thinking outside the box here, but I would guess that when these new facilities are re-built, perhaps there will be some type of minimum weight requirements with respect to loads. Too late for that now and too early to suggest whom will or will not be covered, but I suspect things will have to change just for insurance coverage.

Interesting questions...........what type of economic impact this will have on LOTO this season ?

Were differing designs more effected than others ? You can bet someone will do a study on this, there will be too much $ envolved in this not to protect the insurance providers in the future. I'm a new owner down there, but I think they will have these damaged docks replaced sooner than we think.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

someone please buy them so I can get the money he owes me.

just be careful with the paperwork and make sure all the liens are paid before you accept the house.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Yes... California has the most stringent building codes in the country... Mostly because of earthquakes. There is the rare exception such as the land slide in Laguna Beach area. Those homes were constructed many years ago before proper soil geology tests were performed. Hillside construction requires different codes depending on how deep they have to go to hit bedrock. Those homes that slid in Orange county weren't tied to bedrock. The new homes being built as their replacements are. Along with much improved water drainage from rain. I can tell you this much.... We survive minor earthquakes all the time with NO damage.. It's only the really large ones that show the poorly built structures. The underlying problem isn't the building code... but cost constraints. Property is so much more expensive here than in Missouri that people will build on steep hillsides, even when there is a chance of failure. Try to stop tornados.... you will have about as much luck as we have stopping earthquakes.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

"a little tornado" .........thats almost funny. Maybe you should realize what a tornado actually is before you make a post this utterly ridiculous. The force of a tornado can lift a car or boat and carry it for blocks or even miles.

Outlaw buildings in these areas?????? where???? in 4 states :rolleyes:

Besides, I highly doubt that the dollars in damage even closely compares to the damage of a little hurricane or little earthquake or California wildfire. Not to mention, I highly doubt that the Federal gov't is going to step in and throw billion$$ at the problem at LOTO. I'm sure there are plenty of ways the damage at LOTO could have been prevented, but not necessarily cost effective ways. All each marina would need is a big pump and a tank of liquid deicer or for that matter, a small fire boat with a high pressure pump.

LOTO will easily recover from the damage. Unfortunately it will be through higher prices on slip rentals and higher insurance rates. These rates are and will still be very low compared to coastal states. This was a freak ice and snow storm. Even the time frame the storm hit probably played a major factor. With the ice early in the am and people most likely could not get to work. By the time people could get to work, if they could get to work, it was too late and too dangerous. The amount of ice and snow that fell is probably close to what they normally get over half the winter.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

I was trying to be funny.... I guess sarcasm doesn't always translate in print. ............ :D

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

There are standards which new boat docks must now meet:
http://www.ameren.com/Environment/AD...Guidelines.asp

Unfortunately many of the docks were older and some even had white foam so I am sure many would not have met todays standards BUT there were also brand spanking new boat docks that had problems.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Geee Nort, you figured it out. This happens every year and we rebuild the docks with breadsticks and toothpicks.
If you look at the pics, a lot of docks are so weighted down, that they're sinking. If they're sinking at an angle or they start to flip, there is not much that's going to keep them from collapsing. 3" of ice and 12" of snow is just really heavy.
Gary

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

I guess they should stop building in Florida and other coastal regions since the building codes won't keep a house from blowing away in a hurricane.

Why can't you understand this was a freak weather incident. It does not happen every year. They got as much snow in a day as they usually do in a year.

I am sure they will be rebuilt better but would you build a dock in Florida to withstand holding 12" of snow with a 4" ice base? I didn't think so. Why not, because it has never happened there before. Once it happens once, then the building codes change.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

You are right, and a house shouldn't fall down in a 10.0 earthquake. No damage should come from a cat 5 hurricane. An F5 tornadao shouldn't do more than than blow some leaves out of a tree.

Get into reality. Mother nature is a strong force that you can not plan for.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Wow :eek:

We aren't ready for these freak snowstorms! That pic reminds me of the one we had in Buffalo a few weeks ago.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

TERRY, I HEARD THAT A LOT OF THE DOWN DOCKS ARE BRAND NEW AND ONE MARINA OWNER IN PARTICULAR SAID HIS DEDUCTIBLE FOR THE NEW DOCKS IS 25K. FOR THOSE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE PRICING OF THE DOCKS, THIS PARTICULAR OWNER TOLD ME LAST YEAR THAT HIS NEW DOCK SYSTEMS COST RIGHT AT $1 MILLION FOR APPROX. 3 SEPARATE DOCKS. THIS WAS TO MEET THE NEW CODES BEING ENFORCED DOWN THERE TO BE ENCAPSULATED AND TO SIMPLY UPGRADE THEIR APPEARANCE. SADLY ENOUGH, A LOT OF THE MARINAS THAT ARE DAMAGED HAD TO GO TO BIGGER DOCKS, LARGER AND WIDER SLIPS, LESS PITCH TO THE ROOFS, ETC. IN ORDER TO ACCOMODATE THE VAST NUMBER OF BIGGER BOATS AT THE LAKE. THE COSTS FOR THESE DOCKS ARE OUT OF CONTROL AS IT IS, LET ALONE WHEN YOU DO THE RIGHT THING AND ADD EXTRA CROSSBEAM REINFORCEMENTS AND LARGER PITCHED ROOFS. IT WAS A FREAK THING, BUT I AGREE THAT MORE COULD HAVE BEEN DONE WHEN SOME OF THE COLLAPSING WAS DETECTED IN SOME CASES.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Damn.... lighten up guys.... I was being sarcastic.... Why do you think I made such a rediculous statement such as " They shouldn't build in areas where there are tornados. ".. You guys were talking about "we Californians" should not have houses slide off hillsides, ( an act of nature )... well.... you guys shouldn't have ice storms that sink docks and canopies... :D

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

The storm blew in from the west and caused significant drifting on the east side of the docks creating an uneven distribution of the weight. The majority of the problems are on the large docks like Arrowhead that have relatively flat roofs, 18' wide by 50' deep slips, one after another with only a 4' wide finger in between. There is simply not enough flotation in proportiopn to the roof area to hold up the weight so the finger begins to sink. Again with one side heavier than the other from the drifting the dock is trying to flip over, thus the stress at the base of the columns and ultimately failure. Similar to a sinking ship breaking in half. Many of the marinas, Arrowhead included, remove the concrete walk pads from the fingers to lighten the weight at the ends. Obviously this didn't suffice this time. This snow was very wet and heavy and when coupled with the ice was simply too much. Keep in mind that the constant wave action takes it's toll on the bigger docks as they are flexing which over time weakens the structure.

That said, they could design the dock structures to be stronger with upsizing of the structure and additonal lateral bracing, it just cost more.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Wow- I guess we dodged a bullet here, I left a day early for a race in Phx- my new to me daytona nestled under cover, on my lift, in the dock with a little heater/ air dryer to keep the moisture under control.

We left early to get under the weather- but still ended up driving through 12 hrs of it- came home to this thread.

I've been on a lot of docks on our lake and a few yrs back looked at buying a company that builds docks/lifts. Even new docks seem to have a range of design with varying amounts of flotation (easy to see the "freeboard" or margin on the flotation), size/qty of uprights and often minimal diagaonal; bracing. The older stuff is all over the map. I've been to several of the shops over the years and let's just say there is a wide range of fab design and ability, let alone laying a weld bead.

On our lake the corp has to approve the plans and stuff gets tighter all the time, cost is driven up, people look for ways to have a competitive bid and the cost gets shaved somewhere.

I need to find out how my insurance works in this type event and have a plan- look for the new specifics down the road

My own community dock is pretty old but has good bracing- just needs fresh encapsulated flotation. we've always kept an eye on inches of snow on the roof and had good margin, but the ice is much more dense.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Anything happen to Millers Landing at 21mm? He had a nice dock system that was only 5yrs old.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

I talked to my old neighbor and we used to live across the cove from them, all were standing as of sunday.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Around here we used to call these freak snowstorms "WINTER TIME." In the 70's you expected several storms like this every year. When this storm went through, the weathermen all said they had not seen this kind of snowfall since 1979. I think people have forgotten what midwest snow storms used to be like.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

I agree, its been mild in KC for a number of years IMO, although more ice especially Nov. & Dec. I do not think this one will be soon forgotten however.


Speaking with a client of mine which holds the paper on more than a few residential and mult-unit structures. This will be effecting their thinking on lending policy for the time being.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Shane,
Your dock doesn't appear to have any damage at all--floating nice and high with very little snow on the roof.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Isnt it ironic the Scumbags always seem to catch a break. :rolleyes: :evilb:

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

damm, why couldn't his dock have sunk so he could have collected on insurance and paid me.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

It didn't translate that way to me. I just thought you were being a dumba__. Looks like you were really trying to just lighten the mood.

BTW, don't ever try to become a comedian :D People might not pick up on the punch line :evilb: :evilb:

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Reed.....it translated for me! It was perfectly clear to me!

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Thas cuz you a smart-muh-fuggah, Norty.... thassright!... :D

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

heard on the st. louis news, losses are expected to exceed 500 million $ and take 3-5 years to rebuild, there will be alot of work there and hopefully will bring some profits to some of the business's there

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Wrong....you can plan for and have too! You can bet these won't be replaced with the same construction.....even the new one's built this year that failed.

If no one built better the next time, where would things be? The wolf blew down the piggys house made of straw, the wolf then blew down the house made of wood.....but.....the last piggy build it strong enough that the structure could withhold the forces (Wolf). Simple stuff!!! :D :D

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

reed and kramer went to the same comedy school..its the monkeys fault:evilb:

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

VonBongo, you don't live there anymore by Millers? Where are you at now?

Millers seemed to have a well built dock system.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

Someone enlighten me on the 3-5 years to rebuild. I watched a crew of 5 guys build a dock with 24 slips sized 12'x36' +/- in 10 days. Unless were talking a materials shortage here.........I know the damage is extensive but that long !!

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

The estimate took into account deer season(s)! :evilb:

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

new docks were out 3-4 months before this happened.... what they can do, and what they do are two different things... and that estimate might take into consderation the massive amount of fiberglass that will need to be fixed...

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

3-5 years more than likely includes damage to all of the marina's here on the Mississippi River. We had extensive damage here locally as well.

Re: Loto snow damage.
 

agreed