What does it take to freeze & crack an engine block?
 

I have a question? I have a friend (i know hard to believe). He has a fountain. He sent his boat up north months back. On the way up the transporter ran into a snow storm. The temp dropped to 30 degrees. the transporter pulled over, dumped a few gallons of antifreeze into each sea strainer and cranked the motors. Never strarted them! Got back n the road, drove about 5 hours to the destination where supposably the boat was put inside a heated warehouse. Long story short, now both blocks and 2 heads are cracked. Because the motors were never started and the thermostats never opened the blocks were full of water. My question is, could they have frozen that bad in that short of time in those just below freezing temps while in transport. My opinion is no friggen way, the boat had to be left outside for a period of time in colder temp to do that kind of damage.
This is a huge problem, we need expert advice. We all know how may experts we have on OSO!!

I have a customer who had one block and one manifold crack in Las Vegas the temps were around 30 and thats all it took. The weird thing is the bolck and the manifold cracked on one engine and no damage at all to the other. But if you were driving or sitting still I don't think its matters cold is still cold. I'm not sure how long it would take for them to crack but I would guess 4 hrs?

At 30 degrees? Not buying it. You said it, long term, way deep temps.

But I'm from Phoenix where "winterizing" a boat means wearing a sweatshirt to the lake when you go in January. ;)

I look at it this way. 30 s just freezing. It takes ice cubes a couple of hours to freeze. I would think the boat and the steel blocks would be some sort of insulation and the water in the block would take some time to freeze solid enough to expand and do all that damage.

I would have to say that there is no way that 30 degrees for 4 hours would do it. The antifreeze in the strainers didn't do anything as if he just cranked it would not been enough to fill the block or manifolds. It may have shown good faith but that's about it as it would provide no benefit.

Unfortunately...I'm no expert :(

not
 

at 30 not happening in 4 hrs boat insulate the engine that boat sat ouside alot longer than that i live in wisconson and it takes alot more than that i gaurentee that !

Gino Thats seems hard to believe. It usually has to get down in the 20s for a extended period to crack a block. I towed my new boat home in April and we had a freak spring snow storm here and i didn't even put my boat inside my storage building. I think theres more to this story :rolleyes: Here's some pics. of mine on April 7th :eek: I didn't even drain the water tank!!!

I ran a heater in my bilge here in DC all winter and would always check my bottled water in the truck in the morning. A botle of water wouldn't freeze overnight until it got low 20's or high teens. Usually parked at 6 and started back up around 9....nothing ever froze even in the mid 20's for 9 hours....

It would take a hard freeze of about 20 degrees for a day. 30 degrees would not do it for 4 hours. More to this story I bet.

Around here guys still have their boats in water for striper season when the temps are getting that low overnight.

I don't buy it.

There is a difference in 30 degrees when you are towing or sitting still. If the boats engine compartment vents are not covered the air is being forced into the engine compartment. The area cools quickly and could potential cause a freezing problem.
You may be able to pull the temperatures from the National Weather service for the date, time and location in question to verify that the temperature was actually 30 degrees. Good Luck!

the fiberglass hull will act as an insulator, so if the boat was in 30 degree weather, inside the engine compartment will be at least 3 or 4 degrees warmer. from the few car engine i have looked at that cracked it took lower 20's for several hours to cause this, the bad thing about boat engines though is that the bottoms of the block will have silt and mud trapped at the bottom, so if it packs up bad enough even if you drain the block the silt will hold some water and can freeze and crack the block, on your friends boat Gino sounds like someone is not being honest with you, sounds like the boat sat outside in very cold weather [below 23*] for at least 6 or 7 hours or longer[ most likely longer]

Sometimes when boats sit in water the ocean/lake water will keep them from freezing because the lake has not had a chance to drop that low - so it can work like a weak heater. I think that when you are moving on the highway the cool air could definately flow through the engine via the blowers and accelerate the process. Like driving a car down the highway- if its wet and its below freezing your car will likely have ice on it way before the bridges are frozen over.

Not an expert....

And in Florida, that means wearing pants!!!:evilb: :evilb: :evilb:

Seriously, something's fishy here.

Possibly the owner should have winterized it prior to coming north a couple of months ago...wind chill can do it it had a way in....yes in 4 hours IF it had a way in!...who would send a boat north and not winterize it...

Wind chill, yes it can happen

Gino,
Your answer is yes it can happen. I had a Drag Racing customer that was going down south to race one year, He alos had to travel through very low 30's winter weather heading to Gainsville,Fl. I had recommended him to at least drain the water from the engine block and radiator before he leaves. He didn't and ended up getting to the race track to find a busted cylinder block! The temperatures where right near freezing also.

I thought wind chill only had effect on living tissue??

Would have thought the freeze plugs would have popped first

Sitting still no way 30 degree did it.....moving down the highway, well??? I just don't know. When daytime highs are over 40 I don't sweat nighttime lows in the mid-upper 20's.

Wind chill is a human factor. It has nothing to do with non-living objects. The minimum air temperature is the lowest temperature the engines would achieve.

If the boat were travelling down the hi-way, air moving across the engines from the vents would accelerate the heat transfer through convection. They would never drop below ambient (30°F). To tell how long transient heat transfer takes to get the engines to 30°F, you need to know the velocity of the air (at 1 atmosphere) moving across the engines. It will be a natural convection type of problem. We also need to know the conduction coefficients of the iron, and convection coefficients of the air (both can be looked up in tables). You could neglect the paint thickness effects on heat transfer as this would be minor. Also need to know the initial temperature of the engines.

Knowing the thickness of the block or head wall will give us the time that the INSIDE wall of the piece will reach 30°F. From there, we still need to calculate how long it will take the water to freeze at 32°F. That becomes a thermodynamics problem that we will need to develop equations of state as there are phase changes in the water (liquid to solid).

That said, we can spend a lengthy amount of time gathering info and doing calculations... I think the boat sat outside for a lengthy period of time. Someone is not being a "straight shooter":( :rolleyes:

I know a couple people have claimed to have it happen to them or a friend but, no offense, I call BS on this one. There is a certain amount of latent heat even in those cold ass iron engine blocks. The temp usually has to be at or below freezing for an extended period to actually crack a block. And, as someone else also said, the engine compartment offers some insulation from the elements too.

As far as wind chill, that is correct. It only has effect on living tissue. And, the air isn't actually colder, it only "feels" colder to your skin. The ambient temp is actually the same.

True...to a point.

In an active thermodynamic system (active meaning there exists heat flux - a transfer of heat at some rate), moving air will have some effect. With inanimate objects that don't produce their own heat and the system is stabilized, wind will not have any effect. In other words, if it's 30 degrees outside and the engine block is already stable at 30 degrees there will be no effect of wind. 30 degrees is 30 degrees no matter if the air is still or moving --- Now, if the engine block is at 40 degrees and it's 30 degrees outside, in still air the block will cool down to 30 at a given rate until it stabilizes at 30 degrees depending on the air's ability to absorb heat. The air immediately surrounding the block gains heat and warms slightly (this slows heat transfer because the temp difference is diminished) and it thus transfers this heat slowly to the air further and further away. Now, if this the air is moving swiftly past the block and it's at 30 degrees, the air immediately in contact with the block is always at 30 degrees (no warming effect), and it will absorb heat more quickly than if it were still.

When weather people speak of 'wind chill' it does not apply to objects that do not create their own heat. It's strictly an approximate measure of how 'cold' it will 'feel' to humans with a body temp of 98.6. Say for instance, if 30 degree air is moving at 20 mph past your body, it will absorb heat away from you at an increased rate approximately equal to still air that's perhaps at 0 degrees. For an object that does not make its own heat and it's already the same temperature as the surrounding air, wind chill does not apply.


Back to the original question: I can't possibly see how a block can freeze over the course of 4 hours in 30 degree temperatures. Think of how long it takes to freeze an ice cube in your freezer which is typically about 0 degrees and the water is in direct contact with this cold air. I call B.S.

Right, If it's 35 degrees and the wind is blowing 30 miles an hour that doesn't mean water will freeze. Wind chill is the feeling on your skin. I don't believe it would freeze.

:D That's amazing, That was my thoughts exactly! I was going to explain it the same way I just thought most of the other members wouldn't understand. This just confirmed my initial hypothasis. Thank you!:D

My "rule of thumb" is...

It takes 24 degrees for 24 hours to crack a block. I call BS on someone. :(

Like others have said, wind chill only affects warm blooded living creatures, not engine blocks.

Sorry to hear that you have a friend! :p

The boat definately sat outside for a while. When I lived in Syracuse, I used to keep my Formula on my boat hoist into early December (or until the weather was forecasting really cold 20 degree weather). There were several times that the temperature dropped below freezing before I could pull the boat out, and I never had a problem. The boat had to sit for an extended time in very cold weather for everything to crack like that.

Assuming the boat was in 60 degree or more weather prior to leaving the south, the engine blocks, crank, etc would hold the heat for at least 24 hours. Until the internals reach 30 degrees the water will not freeze solid even if it is pure fresh water. If it has any impurities or salt it will not freeze solid until 28 degrees or below. Up here in MD we rarely see cracked blocks unless the temps stay below 30 day and night for a least a few days.

No way did this happen, I live in upstate NY. The engine compartment is well insulated. covers, padding, fiberglass. Temperature drops have to be for an extended period of time and well into the 20's. The aggitation of the water moving as the truck was moving would also slow down the freezing process. Not buying this explanation. The blocks were cracked before the transport. I call BS

WRONG . Wind chill comes into play on ANYTHING that contains warmth. Shut you car off in a calm 30* night
and a windy 30* night. Restart it 45 mins late. on the windy night the engine temp will have dropped a lot further. Also your home heater will run a lot more on a windy night than a calm night:rolleyes:
My bet is the tow person told the storage place he put antifreeze in the engines and they took his word for it. I would have done it myself knowiing it was going north where its cold and NOT depend on anyone else,
That being said , I have backup mechanical temp gauges on my engines that are stainless industrial gauges and have an expanded scale from below freezing to over 250*. after a night in the mid to high 20's both read in the low to mid 40s but this was sitting still with a full cover over the vents.

Engines are in the boat, not on the swim platform cruisin down the highway. No wind chill.

24* for 24hrs is the general rule.

Get the NOAA_ weather data for the region and date time traveled.

Wind chill would only cool it off faster not make it colder than the outside temp. 30 degrees is 30 degrees. It's like blowing on your soup it cools if off faster but will not get colder than room temp.

This is incorrect... wind chill does ONLY affect living tissue. To define, it's the affect the tissue feels that makes it "feel" colder than the actual, ambient temp. This is ONLY PERCEIVED!. Non-living tissue CANNOT get colder than the ambient.

What you are describing is the heat transfer rate due to CONVECTION. This is NOT wind chill, but one of the basic heat transfer modes (Conduction, convection, and radiation).

Great minds nursed on a steady diet of beer think alike... another hypothesis we should all agree on!:D :drink:

I concur. :drink:

24 for 24 is a great rule of thumb.

Even in the Fall October/November when frost can build up on the lawn in the morning, you have not gone through a long enough period of to do this damage. Sun comes up, you're back in the 40's or more and everything is cool. (Get it? A little temp humor here folks.)

Take this from a guy in Maine. Something smells fishy here. If the warehouse was not heated, or didn't go inside right away or....whatever. We always are out at least on Halloween weekend as the last weekend in our boat.

Yep!

I skipped over some of the thread.

Anything's possible, but it's highly unlikely that 30°F for 4-5 hours cracked a block. The wind might have brought the temp of the block down to 30° a little faster, increasing the risk, but wind would not make it colder than the ambient temperature.

Forget about antifreeze, if there's a possibility of short-term freezing temps, the best thing to do is just drain the blocks and exhaust manifolds. Just draining the motor is likely enough to prevent freezing for a whole winter, but not recommended. For a short term cold snap it's all you need to do.

Wind chill and heat index are just ways of measuring our body's response to environmental conditions. Heat is transferred 3 ways, convection, conduction, and radiation. Our bodies stay at a relatively constant temperature, and produce heat. we need to be in a slightly colder environment than our bodies temperature in order to maintain an appropriate body temperature. If heat escapes our body too fast, we feel cold, not fast enough, we feel warm. The rate at which heat enters or leaves our body is determined by conduction, convection, and radiation. You feel the warmth from a sunny day, that's radiation. You feel the cool breeze, that's convection. You touch the cold engine block (or the hot one) that's conduction. Wind is no colder than the surrounding air, it's just that more air is passing your body (or your boat, engine, etc.) It will increase the convection and the temperature will drop to the temperature of the air faster. But if you put something out in 30 degree weather, it won't get any colder than 30 degrees just because it's windy. If it's touching ground that's colder, it may lose additional heat through conduction, if it's sunny out, it may get warmer due to radiation. If it's windy out, it will get down to ambient (or up to ambient) significantly faster, though.

my 2cents worth.i have left my boat out in the cold[28degrees,or less] for 2 days w no cover.nothing never froze.i have worked in houses that had no heat for weeks,in frezzing weather w/hydro heat and cast iron radators and never frose.and some of these houses were reallll lose,rentals.

General rule up here in Canada is -5 for 12 hours ( celcius, which is about 23 F ), and you start to worry.