depends who you ask........its just a boat..nothing more nothing less.....plastic and shinny metal......long time apache owner/ operator........m.m....

The boats were made to race off-shore, not in-shore. They were made heavy to take the rough stuff. They definately are not anywhere as fast as the new stuff, but let's see how long the newer boats stick together. Yes, you get what you pay for

I think there should be a new post..... Why are OuterLimits $1M boats and why does mercury charge so much for their 850 sci's......

Because there are people who are willing to pay.....

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding....we have a winner! :p:D

Most weekends when I go to Claudios ( on the water restaurant for those unfamiliar ) I'm the only Apache there...plenty of Fountains, Cigs, etc. Invariably tons of people come over and ask about the boat...its not something you see everyday....there's lots of history and unless you've owned one, or actually ridden in one, its hard to understand the cache....BTW - I don't think I'd use the word " stupidity ". I can think of lots of prices, paint jobs, interiors, etc. I'd call stupid first :rolleyes:

:food-smiley-007:
I raced a Bad A-$ Apache "Tweet REVENGE " in 1992-1993 and sold it quickly in 1994 for less than it,s selling for Now !!It took over $650k ot build in 1992 and over 6 months ,we sold it for only $ 275 k and at the time we were glad it even sold . Now over 15 years later it,s worth more $.

Maybe it's the weakening of the U.S. Dollar.

Had a smaller new boat with some fancy factory paint added some custom paint on it becides. Most looked at the boat and said "I like the paint" or "nice boat super paint.
The Appache has a rather frugal paint job done well. No logo but people ask about the boat most know not what it is but comments like "wow thats a big boat" thats a nice boat what is it", people that care less about go fasts. There are bigger and smaller vesseles around me faster, faster looking but they seem drawn to the boat. Its not even the name it goes beyond that. Its the lines, the design, the shape of the hull bottom. Its difficult to take your eyes away from it if you know a thing about a well designed hull or not.

I am guessing the same thing would be said about many of the collector cars. Is the Apache the only boat that commands the big dollars? What really makes this brand any different than a comparable Cigarette? They all share many of the same qualities, same construction, same rigging, same parts, basically just the builders name is different.

Don Aronow had two Ideas which he never skimped on..one was Build the hulls always Strong.
The other one was to keep them boats seaworthy=Safe to any customer..guess BobbyS and all who worked with Don kept to that.

Who cares about a fast XXXX (fill your favourite here) or buys one if it´s not safe which "any" Aronow heritage is... just think about it..Apaches, Cigs,XII´s, Formulas...?

Actually not...the forefathers/anything with a racing pedigree, like Magnum27/28´s, Cig 35 Mistress, (especially Miami Vice edition) KV Scarabs and Larry Smiths etc all have an inflated asking price usually.
What is the price to get them sold is another thing.

Over here I have more friends in Ferraris than a Z06...come think of it I don´t know anyone with a C6Z06.

Here you CAN see 4 Ferraris or whatever at a Stoplight BUT I´m the ONLY one with C1 fuelie I know in the whole country !
I´ll never forget an officers face at a stoplight when I could read from his lips what he tried to spell ... C-O-R-V-E-T-T-E...*Priceless.
*Z06 is a top class Exotic with a fine racing pedigree, the wins in LeMans for example...

* Hell now I´m starting to sound like Reggie Fountain..SHAME on me!

Well regarding Apaches weight and Using the abovementioned stuff there wasn´t ANY technologial thought about it...guys splashed epoxy (or did they use normal resin with Kevlar????) like it was normal resin without a second thought IMO.
The lightest 41 lands at 8600 (?)...
No thats no lightweight considering materials used IMO.

The majority of Cigs were and still are production based boats. Most, if not all, Apaches were custom built for each owner. Plus, the sheer number of Cigs built vs. Apache's is staggering, the market is flooded with them. The same goes for Formula etc.... There's not many Apaches out there.

So a 382/419 vs a 41 A....not even close, not even with Kaamas as they were equipped with from factory (RARE) ?
Could you share your knowledge.. ok the A is loud, doesn´t have all that cabin and glass windscreens and does have a straight racing pedigree which SR-1´s lack unless you go wayyyyy Back.

Howabout a Sutphen 39 then....now thats a rare bird with a fine heritage in a name...and an Even deeper V than anyother?
The Sutphen Family has made high perf boats 60+ yrs ..remember the Elco PT boats ?

I think the Apache hoopla is alive because there´s been somuch talkabout them and every pleasure version owner likes to think they have a Warpath (or at least a former Drug runner) although there´s surely quite a difference as can be read how 41 A´s differ in their running and therefore configurations.
Reminds me of Every Ferrari (especially 250 GT 2+2) owner thinking they have their racing equivalent (250 GTO).

I see them fromer race 41A´s none the better than any full tilt raceboat ..may it then be a Cig, CUV 41, Cougar 41, a FB design, Larry Smith 377 or whatever similar.

During Don´s time a Cig was built per customer and each was different so it is even to today as per Skip Braver "Today, Braver and his minority partner, Neill Hernandez, who joined the company after high school, oversee a staff of 115. Every boat is made to order, taking between two and four months to complete. Price tags range from $300,000 to $1 million and up.
Skip Braver Article..on OSO

So whats the Difference here actually?
Only the Bad Boy Heritage of a bygone era IMO.

do You regret selling it now?

I don't think we're comparing apples to apples.... First, Don didn't even own cig back when Apache was started... Back then the Apaches were dominating the scene and there were a heck of a lot less made... If Cigarette folded like Apache did I'm sure they would be just as valuable.

Apaches are a novelty item and people pay money for that.... Prices are set by the sellers and buyers, sometimes they're not in line but the bottom line is although these boats are old they hold their value (in some cases increase value) better than others. BTW, Cigs still hold value better than most brands but you can't go out and by an Apache today... You can buy a McManus Apache but it's not the same company...

This of course is my opinion and also the reason I would pay a little more to own an Apache, more than any other boat... I didn't want to pay the membership fee for the "Outerlimits Club" because I don't like them as much....:hitfan:

No i glad it sold ,But i wish it would have sold for the fair market value at the time ! The price we thought it would demand was $ 450k . But rumors and the oriingal owners legal problems caused too much negatives and the bottom fishers came out to snatch it up !

I wouldn't say they're "expensive". There's one in the classifieds for $59K that could be bought for less. If you were to buy that boat, repaint it, replace the drives with 6's, toss in a set of nice 850's and completely paint/re-rig and reupholster it, you'd probably have a $150K boat. Problem is, you'd have spent $250 on the package.

It's tough to describe why anyone would want a 41. A Topgun is just "easier". You can pull it with an F350, it will fit in just about any rach storage facility and you can run nicely on Bravos and N/A power. The Apache (pleasure) needs a bigger truck to tow and expensive power to move it. And, lots more gas. You can pull into alot of docks and tie up next to 3 or 4 other Topguns on many days. If you wanted to tie up next to 3 or 4 Apache's, it would take weeks of coordination and some long-distance tows.

After it's all said and done, there's that Apache ride. I went from my 1st 41 into a 46 Cougar. I sold it 6 months later and bought another 41. The Cougar was nice but had nothing on the 41 in sloppy water.

Fan of Tom Selleck I presume???:p

Mistique.... oh waite that is a cig.... :D

That was a 308. The 288 was a homologation car Ferrari built in very limited numbers. One of the most beautiful Ferrari's ever.

Don´t stick just to Cigs...
Kevlar flatdecks and TGs could be bought at the same timeline, also LS Kevlar Scarabs.
Apaches we´re dominating the (race)scene at the time ?
Where ?
Not internationally so I say it´s the bad boy image which sells. Not the True racing pedigree.
LS Scarabs were the last Americans with some International pedigree at the time, Cigarette before that (because of Carlo Bonomi).


But you can´t buy a Kevlar 377 LS Scarab even if you wanted to either not even a copy of one brand new. Also I think boats like Dry Martini will command a price because of their history and Raceboats with a proven history.

Now I might ask when there´s reportedly some 75+ 41´s made how many 377´s or 38 LS Sacarabs are made not even half of that I believe ?
Sutphen 39´s even less?
Now there´s some novelty...

I understand you and don´t question that, But as I see it there´s options outthere to Apaches too, I think we can agree on that ?
Might be that because some of the key players still are in the boatbuilding business Apaches are so popular but I´d say it mainly has to do with Don Aronows and Ben Kramers shady side.

Back in the mid-80's, there was nothing like the Apache 41. Cig was just out with their replacement for the 36, the 38SE. It was no way near the finish or equipment of the Apache. You couldn't buy a 41 with 330's and TRS. You got 650's on 3's as base power. You also got a fully loaded boat built with the best stuff. You didn't see things like the Italian-made billet cleats and things like that. By the late 80's there were more than a few bigger dealers that had plenty of Topgunson the lot. If you wanted an Apache, you ordered it and waited for it. Today, there are more than a few pure-custom builders out there. Back then, it was only Apache.

As far as Sutphen and some of the others, they still didn't build boats with either the style or the quality of the Apache.

If you want an LS Scarab--- http://www.teamscarab.com/

Offtopic.

Based on a 308...and almost a carbon copy in looks.
The 288 engine is a debored version of one added with huffers and not much else being mainly a tesbed for F40 as it never ran a race , it was supposed to be a Gr.B Rally car but became a poodle with A/C etc luxuries IMO.
The F40 is the true Gem of the 80´s and a pure racecar that was made for the street and was many years later raced with success by privateers ..just like the 365/GTB which is my favourite of the marque.
I agree on the looks of a 288 but not the performance, A L-88 would take it down like Alexander Karelin would take down a midget and a ZR-1 would give any 288 GTO a run for it´s money in acceleration and top speed.
*The L-88 still has the GT-class top speed record at Mulsanne and could Not be optioned with a radio or a/c or a heater...but a 427 that could rip the innards of any "exotic" coming in it´s way.
Remember at LeMans Corvette has always been more of a crowd favourite than Ferrari....

But still a 288 makes me think of Tom Selleck and all that...
Now Ben prolly imitated Tom too with those German pornstar/gay moustaches :cool-smiley-027:

This sums it up right here.
You think the 288GTO is one of the most beautiful Ferrari's ever, cuz that's what you crazed when you were younger... just like you probably drooled on the apaches's at the same era. Nothing wrong w/ that... i agree.
But if i see a 1960s GTO... wow.

Same w/ classic cars... all about teen lust.

My favorite...

250LM
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...1489/250lm.jpg

Back int the 80´s you couldn´t get any I mentioned ?
A full kevlar and the works 377 or anything, You must mean domestic?
Sure there was you just had to dig it up just like nowadays if you want a something custom made and wait for it...LS wasn´t known for fast deliveries either but custom only.
I think LS was a lot harder to get convinced to to build a boat for you than Kramer at the time. He didn´t need to make any noise of himself.

Now italian made billet cleats...:D
I wouldn´t touch them with a stick..or trust them for the matter Italians and all the southern europeans are generally the laughing stock when it comes to quality in manufacturing in Europe.
Style and Opera is their forte not craftmanship :cool-smiley-026:
IMO Italians are good at metal foundry especially aluminum and machining but when it comes to billet I´d look elsewhere although I´m quite alone even with admitting they are good at even that.

Regarding Sutphens well guess nobody asked them to build a "high tech" boat..surely the skill is there and well the style, thats a personal thing.
The bottom in a Sutphen has all that Apache has and maybe then some IMO.

I know the website is up for Teamscarab ..but try to order one...
Nocando since a few years back and the latest news on the site is over 4yrs old, ask MikeJ here for further details as he´s the only one here you might get some info regarding LS/Team Scarab.
Besides LS is over 70...

Regarding a brand new 41 Apache...look at Saber or the new Papache at Pantera so sure you can get one or close enough as possible and theres also McManus.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. When I was a kid I remember when I first saw 47' Medicine Man. After that I knew that I wanted to own an Apache some day.

Once I started shopping for my own boat I did what very few people do and that was that I waited until I found exactly what I wanted and I waited until I could afford it (I didn't want to start with 29' baja and work my way up). For Three years I checked all of the classifieds daily. Then on 10-2-2006 I drove 600 miles to pick my baby up. I remember it like it was yesterday. Next to marriage and the birth of my son it was one of the happiest days of my life. I had accomplished one of my goals in life, to own an Apache.

It's sort of like the jeep ads that say "it's a jeep thing, you wouldn't understand." The pride that I feel in my boat can't really be explained with words. It is what makes a guy want to pull his boat out on 45 degree January day, uncover it, and clean it.

I agree a Pontiac GTO is nice...got a 65 Gransport conv. in the garage waiting for restoration :)
But it´s 2yrs older than me!

Now here´s a soulmate !

You can buy a Shelby Cobra "kit car" and put it together yourself or buy one complete but you'll be hard pressed to find an "original" Shelby Cobra.... And when you do you better expect to lay some cash down on it if you want to buy it......:cool-smiley-027:

Great post baywatch. That sums it for my husband as well. He had his 31' Stinger for 10 years and thought he couldn't afford an Apache. To him, that was THE boat to own. And today he does. He never thought he'd own one. While I wasn't as excited as he was, I am so totally sold on this boat after riding it in rough water that I am just as hooked as he is.

In the end, the bigger power has/is going to cost us more. It's a give and take, as with many things. My one comment to Rob when we were looking at boats was when we were in 3 to 5's I didn't want the snot kicked out of me and wanted to feel safe.

I have that....and more!

Back in the 80's. Scarab was a Wellcraft brand and LS was building raceboats, not custom yachts. Sutphens were rare and oddly styled. The one's I had were solid but not built anything like any of the 4 Apaches I've ownerd- and there was neither a sense of style or attention to detail, not to mention any hint of anything other than utilitarianism in their finish. as far as Italians and how they make things- that's a pretty general statement that could be applied to any country's production. I've had some German and Swisss-made stuff that was utter junk. I sell and service a good deal of Italian-made machinery and some of it is better engineered and constructed that anything we make here in its class. Don't forget Tencara- builder of America's Cup winning boats as well as many UIM raceboats. Had they been building them here, Skater may have never existed.

Well Ol´Shel also makes glassfiberbodied "Shelbys" with CSX VIN prefixes...and the thruth be told the First with engines and the works was AC assembling one.
Shelby was a kitcar maker right from the start.... If you want an original you get a AC Cobra.

Still love driving this car as mach as I did 25 years ago when I got it.

If you wanted a custom Scarab Team Scarab built it in the 80´s...not Wellcraft and you could have one... like a 43 with Lambos and Arnesons if you wished.
So there´s Customs..by LS/Team Scarab.
And their race records speak for volumes.

Regarding Sutphens looks I think of old Magnums especially the rear section...odd there too like a 28 Maltese for example...well it´s up to personal taste but to me they look purposeful/utilitarian like you say and fill the task, no nonsense there to please anyone except the operator. Just like a Porsche vs. a Ferrari.
I like also the look of Apache..you can´t call them sleek by anymeans with their racehatches and fairings either honestly, can you..more like RAW.
If you want style and finesse you better turn to Italy / the old continent IMO.

Saying something italians make better than US doesn´t surprise me as USA is mainly considered a massproducer and the finishes of it´s mass products do leave a lot to desire and usually fall short in international competiton, but thank god for the domestic market.

Like I said... I have found Italians do a lot of good stuff..and a lot of halfhearted efforts, specially when software and electrics come into play, utter rubbish.
Fine craftsmen they are just like anyone who´s devoted, but I know from personal experience how frustrating it is to start a long CNCprogram 5-6 times a day/every day from the start/(emergency)shutdown and set all up when a combined mess of Microsoft and Italians are mixed, seems they have an inbuilt function to force the operator to have 17cups of coffee a day and the boss twice that.
And when you finally get the factory technician to come from italy and take a look at the problem (on WARRANTY) all he can do is the typical italian hunch of his shoulders and look stupid.
I also hate when my Nokia crashes...or my German built MAN Truck gearbox throws the towel..but give me a Eaton Fuller and I´m happy unless I have to pay for the fuel...

Well you must be glad Nautor, MasMar and Victoryboats are where they are if you think Tencara is a threat...guess you just agreed there on something regarding quality :p

Seems Rob hasn´t taken the Apache to it´s limits yet and has been nice to you :D