BUT McManus is one of the originals since day one!
According to my memory he worked early on (and that might go even into the 70´s...free feel to correct) at Cigarette (maybe even SQ XII) like Bobby S did and if we think further the first Apache Racer was in fact a SQ XII 39(=39 Cig Competition with wider strakes).
So apparently he was around and getting his hands dirty since day one just like Bobby S or anyother who get´s credited.
He has had the determination to get the molds (for the 41 ups) and the name to himself and stuck with the Apache even at bad times.
He´s the one that should be held acclaimed and credited for keeping the dream alive IMO.
And Yes he owns the trademark officially, without any sideremarks, why is it so hard to admit that and the fact HE IS THE Key player because of his Determination to the name, not fogetting others either ?

Fact is you can order one from McManus at the price Apaches always have commanded brand new, expect it to be made of materials several times higher in price and quality as always and maybe he can even build one stronger and lighter than any (relic) before ?
If he or any old reputable builder can´t then it´s better to turn to others (who have Apache molds) and is up to date with the build techniques regarding these new upto 60yrs old materials (Epoxy, Para-Aramids, Carbon Fiber ) and probably be more than happy USING a brand new one and beating it to death...
Just like using a new racecar...

Apparently the price has proved unbearable even today using these materials as not many are built so people stick to the older ones and build them up over and over again.
IMO the resale market would be quite bad for an old school style boat with todays materials used as the price will be for a hull more than another similar sized turn key boat.

Also any old used race XXXX that isn´t competitive or needs too much overhaul to keep competitive/even running isn´t going to get sold easily as the competitors know it and the one "dumb enough" to buy one isn´t there yet.. it takes 20+yrs to forget the setbacks and look back at the glory days....
A Racer can´t afford to be brand loyal but a wannabe can.


Yes The Cobra and Apache do have a similar history, as being underdogs in their racing record internationally but having domestic success.
So all in all they both were winning occasionally, yes but not constently like those which aren´t that heralded just because the name gets so common because of the wins and ink they get in volumes.


So a 36 Apache doesn´t hold a special place in afficiandos eyes but a 41 Racer does.
Just like I stood upon a 90´s Ferrari yesterday without taking a second glimps at it but looked with more interest at the couple 420/454 Mercs behind it going for a rebuild...or the 1972 Alfa Romeo 2000GTV I volunteered working on.

A Niché market is always just that and yes more than often has an inflated market because of various things.
In Apache it has to be to some extent the shady characters involved as there´s more distinguished race records in other brands.
Think Lamborghini* and Cobra* vs. Corvette,Ferrari or Porsche.
*In both marques it´s an inflated reputation vs. their race successes.
The funny thing is many thinks Lambos have a race record or race models to speak of which they don´t or have never had a factory race effort anywhere.

Depends who you´re talking with...Usually you just get an empty reply/stare..
Talk about a racing sailboat with no amenities or a racecar to a soccermom...
I have found out that mostly I don´t bother to explain further than I just bought a XXX...
F.e. I didn´t bother to tell my wife about the Callies Stroker crank yesterday other than it´s a crank and weighs alot.
And I tell her equestrain horses and dressage horses are the same **** in different packages..and yes we do have both.:hitfan:

Keep the Aronow Heritage alive :grinser010:

McManus was pushing pencils as an operations manager, not actually getting his hands dirty. In fact he probably never turned a wrench or stepped inside one of his customers boats for all we know. Where are his racing credentials??? Who much setupging/rig info did he steal from Bobby Moore? How many championships did "he" win behind the wheel??

Being upset that a boat built in the US is worth more money than its overseas counterparts is unfortunate. You obviously don't think they're worth what people are selling them for and others are buying them for, what what's your beef, why do you even care then??? Don't buy one if you think they're overpriced.... IMHO the European counterparts were UGLY boats, they didn't have the timeless lines of an Apache. 20 years later I still have people come up to me and tell me that out of all the boats on the dock they like the Apache the best. Those aren't my words they are someone else's.

Anyway, if you think they're only worth $10, go out and buy one and enjoy it. Somehow I doubt that'll happen. You don't have to like or think they are worth what they are, they just ARE.. lol:hitfan:

Did he manage the teams that built the boats in the later days at Apache...yes...does he get credit, yes. I don't discredit him and what he did...

I like all Apache's and in some ways they are still superior to some of the newer boats.... Three boats parked at a dock, a Cigarette, Apache and a Cougar and my head will still turn to the Apache... It's all about what you like and people pay for what they like.

And we have a winner folks:D Wuz up Ed:ernaehrung004:

It´s like saying that to be a good boatbuilder you have to be a good driver first, Eh?
And regarding "stealing" well look who was the master of that if not Don A himself....now there´s a snakecharmer for you ( or newer trust a XXX might be the lesson there).
I guess he would´ve been living with the fishes real soon If he´d building boats in the old continent...

FYI I´ve been a race mechanic in cars since 1984 and wouldn´t let any driver use my tools or trust anything one would build I´ve seen the disatrous result far too many times.
But if their crew chief would offer something I´d even consider and surely take even a second look despite how bad they are behind the wheel.
So McManus is a pencil pusher in your eyes even thou he´s regarded as a no1 Apache restorer, something doesn´t add upp here ?
Where does it put Don A then, how much did he do hands dirty jobs ?

First of all I´m not upset at all (about a US built boat being worth more money) as surely it ain´t the case.
The others abroad just buys even Apaches/Cigarettes/Rivas you name it for tenderboats around the boats I´m familiar with they build over here.
So not in the same league I´d say...happens to be one aqquintance of mine was the "pencil pusher" for the last two boats one mr. Allen commissioned.


I´m not either saying I Don´t like the style, but there sure is options to Apache if you don´t care about the looks or have a different taste, some actually like the "other" raceboats (from the period even) that look different but I´m not one of them or you either so we agree quite well how a POWERBOAT SHOULD LOOK and sure as hell it aint the look of a Fountain despite being US built!
I like the look of an old school flatdeck and if you have to compare a boat to another just take an apples to apples comparison.
Meaning it´s more straighforward to compare the prices heritage and so-on with other raceboats.

In fact my favourite regarding just pure looks is a Cigarette 35 Mistress in the configuration where the fairing is not a V (and the Cig 39/Flatdecks) and the Scarab KV coming as a good second.
Regarding Apaches fairing it´s a tad high for my taste but I understand it´s purpose. But it´s hull doesn´t have that kink a Scarab/Cig 36 and Cary32 have...but the Apache 47 do.
I´d say the 41 is close to being one of the toughest looking powerboats but so is the Saber 28 also...despite

If you think a Apache turns heads because of it´s beauty park it next to a Riva or any similar mahogany jewel that Carlo Riva got his inspiration from (Gar Wood/Chris Craft) or do we disagree on pure looks, and they surely command the prices you wouldn´t believe.
And the restoration sums are anything but pocket change, Restorin a Riva Aquarama can set you back the price of a brand new 38 TG...


Oh there´s one for 59Th..and bare hulls, 47´s have been listed for 29K (PTM Express) so that doesn´t make it seem so expensive until you upgrade/restore them, still they are cheaper than Brand new racehulls or ?
Are they then competitive...not in the long run.

Bare 41A racehulls fetch in the 80-120 range..IMO thats not much considering what they are.
Try get and old stripped raceboat for similar prices is hard even globally.

And the finest example of a 41A is at 250 right now.
Others with #6´s are anywhere from 150 up depending on condition.
Those aren´t much of a prices if looking for a powerboat if you look at retail prices of a new something in similar size.
And yes my option would be anyday a 41A instead but I would also look for other options like other old flatdeck raceboats.

What I am saying that Apaches claim to fame and why they command prices isn´t based on their race success and classy looks but the Bad Boy Image which every titcheek tries to mimick and be a part of.
The true bad boys thou can´t afford one...

Well we agree here on many parts but I don´t like all Apaches mainly 41 and 47´s, yeah yeah I know what happens to the picky guy ...he doesn´t get any....
Depending also on what Cig and What Cougar is parked.
Regarding them being superior to new boats..well my opinion on boats is no steps no boaks but it just an opinion.

A flatdeck Cig (38/39) and I´ll surely compare it to a Apache 41
and If there´s Warpath next to Dry Martini I´ll look more at DM.
But if a Cougar Cat 41 is there and especially NOTAREAL Then I´m all in for that one and it´s blue trumpets...
funny..the former Notareal has a listing price equaling Warpaint as we speak ( The red banner boat).
And howabout Turkish Express ?

Aren't many 15-25yr old boats kept in the condition these apaches are.
Damn, most 5yr old boats pale in comparison.

Mike, we agree on many points, all of which combined increase the value to people who own them and who are looking to buy them. :cool:

I also agree about Riva's etc... My father owned a 30' "Fino" when I was young, it was an Italian designed hull made to resemble the wooden Chris Crafts. They only made about a dozen or less of them....you can get a new one made for $350K.. I have only seen ONE other one in person and I happened to stumble upon it with my wife when we were on vacation. My fathers boat was built in the 70's and the hull was laid up and rigged at Magnum. He had 600 hp Turbo motors that were built at Flagship marine which also happened to be around the corner from Bobby's Race Headquarters.

Offtopic...
Fino was a boat designed by Carlo Riva after he sold Riva and made in the US in glassfibre If I´m not mistaken but it didn´t catch wind and Carlo bought Riva back after a while ?
At least here´s one in US Fino 30

Yes seems we do have an effect on escalating the Want factor on these "gems" ...old pieces of ****e on some others eyes.
In fact those that have the means to do what they want regarding boating for example and restore Apaches once a month don´t wan´t the hassle to rebuild engines etc. it´s different with cars and gearheads like us.. otherwise people like Jay Leno (ok so he´s a gearhead too and wrenches on his cars himself) would be powerboaters.

Fact is these boats get older and older and composites go brittler all the time as age creeps up on them so those restoring one is just trying to work against the clock.
I´ve struggled in offshore sailboats against the same...once a raceboat is used it´s nothing but a good memory regarding real racing.
It´s so much "easier" to maintain a wooden boat.."just" replace planks and voilá the boat is like new again.

Yes a old (race)boat is prolly fun for a poker runner (for a little while) but thenagain if you ain´t got the means and the places to put the boat away while servicing it gets easier to buy a new one and upgrade it to another with frequent intervals so I´m not that worried about Apaches prices skyrocketing beyond reach.

Plus the fuel price do make their toll too despite any powerboat being a Niché..new ones doesn´t have a second hand market and the second hand boats gets neglected, has happened already even to Apaches and some have been neglected otherwise as sad it is.
I´m just waiting for The EPA to take their aim at powerboaters...then the old boats will really stay out of water despite being restored.
A boat is despite the history a large static object .. much larger and not so nice up on land to look at than a car...so owners do tend to wear out and lose interest in them almost always.

Despite that lets just drool at this for example...ok so it´s not an Apache but will give one a run for it´s money anyday and is a 41´s forefather...KAM´s screaming

...what boat do you own again ?

I'm glad you know more history about it than I do. $69K for a 1973...not bad...it actually INCREASED in value...wish my father didn't have to get rid of his...

My father owned this boat from give/take 1975-1985. It was a great boat, it ran about 65-70 mph and at the time that was pretty respectable.... When he first bought the boat he saw it at the NYC boat show and was inbetween buying this boat and an Aronow design...he chose to go with the Fino... Instead of buying the floor model he ordered his. From what he told me, many trips to Magnum throughout the build process.... I guess you grow up around these classic boats and it makes you want to own one.... My facination with Apache started when they had the tripple engine 45 Apache at the NYC boat show...

http://www.lucidideefastboats.com/images/Fino1.jpg
http://www.lucidideefastboats.com/images/Fino2.jpg

hes that golf goof from the golf thread........has a 17" dell screan at best. might even have a spray set-up to make this seem real.........m.m...........

:D

Yeah baby!!!! Is that your boat now?

I remember looking in the engine room and asking my father how they fit the three engines in there....all I saw was chrome... My father grew up with a guy by the name of Phil, he became sales manager for Tempest which was at the same show. Long story short, after looking at the Apache we went over to the Tempest booth so my parents chould hang out with Philly. while they were talking he let me go inside the 32 Tempest...I got tired so when they came back to check on me 45 minutes later I was sleeping.

What year was that anyway??

If this crap is true, then why is his reputation so well respected as the builder of the Apaches? Someone is feeding you BS! :Whatever:

Because he hired the right people to do the job....

Wow, This thread has gotten entertaining. I suppose that is to be expected with an apache thread.

Here is something I read A number of years ago ( this was posted sometime in 2002 on Boat Design.net):




" Founded Apache Powerboats in 1978 when I started tooling my 21’, 33’ & 39’ boat line. I incorporated Apache Powerboats and went into production in 1980. At the same time I also owned and operated Race Headquarters, Inc., a custom Hi-Performance center and I also co-owned Hawk Marine Power.

In 1982, I brought the Kramer’s into Apache as my partners (I had this reversed and thought Kramer started Apache and brought Bob in), sold my interest in Hawk Marine Power (interesting that it comes full circle) and absorbed Race Headquarters, its crew and all its equipment into Apache. The first order of business was to produce the baddest wave buster’s money could buy. Since the tooling for my new 39’ offshore was still months away from completion, I went to the King himself, Don Aronow, and made arrangements to purchase a new 41’ mold he had just completed. The first boat out of the mold was blue and tan and Benny called it “Warpath”. My original Race Headquarters crew rigged Warpath and off we went for sea trial. Ben and I ran Warpath offshore through some of the heaviest seas imaginable at over 90 miles per hour. Ben and I knew immediately that we had built a real winner. We entered Warpath in the APBA Open Class and won the Key West World Championship in 1984. The original factory team was Ben Kramer – Driver, Bob Saccenti – Throttles, and Tom Evans – Navigator. In 1985 we took Second in the Key West U.I.M. Worlds, with the red “Team Apache”.

Ben and I were now racing around the world with APBA & U.I.M. to promote Apache Powerboats. Because of our demanding race schedule we decided to contract Bobby Moore to rig all of our 41’ production and to serve as Crew Chief on our race team. In 1985, I ended my partnership with the Kramer’s on a friendly note agreeing to share the name Apache. I called my company Apache Performance Boats; he kept my original name, Apache Powerboats. Even though we were now two separate companies, we continued to act as one, sharing boat show space and tooling. We also continued to race as a team for promotion of the name. In 1986, we won the National Championship and were awarded the coveted US1 in our “prototype” catamaran “Team Apache”. That was also the year we introduced the new 47’ triple engine Apache Superboat.

In 1987, things started to fall apart. The Kramer’s had major legal problems and the government seized all their assets including Fort Apache Marina and Apache Powerboats. The government hand picked one of Ben’s employees to run the company while they completed their investigation. Some of Ben’s employees were involved with Ben’s problems, some left, and new people were hired. With the new star employee running things, the first order of his business was to disassemble the last 41’ Bobby Moore rigged and copy all measurements and systems and make jigs and templates to duplicate Bobby Moore’s genius (nothing like knowing your trade). Bobby Moore has never gotten over this to this day.

Many years passed and it was business as usual for me. Around 1996, the government auctioned all the Kramer’s assets. The only thing they did not sell was the Florida Trademark for Apache and the Apache Powerboat name. I did not think about it at the time because my Apache Trademark, although slightly different, is a Federal Trademark. From time to time my attorney in Washington would inquire about the State trademark and was always told “it’s not for sale”. Well, SURPRISE – SURPRISE. After one such inquiry, I was advised that the same STAR EMPLOYEE had just purchased the Florida Trademark from the same “it’s not for sale” government for a couple hundred bucks. What a success story, the employee gets to own the company. Yeah.

Now the real confusion.

With Apache Powerboats & Apache Performance Boats already sharing the market, the old retired 41’ molds were purchased at auction for 12k and re-sold to a company in Ohio that advertised that they could build the “41’ Apache for half the price”. Also, the star employee moved to the other coast and started to produce boats by Xerox under another tribal name and when I wasn’t looking he slid a few Apache’s in for good measure. Personally, I think he should have named his company “High Dollar Lead Sleds, Inc.”. Additionally, in the early – mid 90’s, a Miami based company made a very, very bad copy of the 41’. They changed the bottom, cut the sheer, and the first time in the water the boat rolled in its first turn. The molds were stacked and stored in the sun and weather out in the yard to never be used again. Just recently those same molds were sold to an individual in Blountstown, Florida who is now saying he is the “New Apache”. What a joke. I wouldn’t use those molds for a flower pot.

All of this would have surely brought tears to Geronimo’s eyes.

Also, rumor has it that I sold out, died, left town, closed up and went out of business and so on. WRONG. NONE OF THE ABOVE

All that I have written here can easily be verified and I know, I lived it.

If you have any questions please call or fax me. I do better on the phone than the keyboard. The resin makes my fingers stick to the keys.

Also, thanks to all the Apache owners who put the TLC and money into keeping their Apache in tip top shape and promoting the heritage.

Best regards,

Bob Saccenti"



NOW, I am simply cutting and pasting what I read somewhere else. Don't attack me I am simply sharing because I found it interesting when I read it. I am not picking sides in any of it. I love my boat and that is all that matters to me. I don't understand why everybody has to knock each other to me this is all supposed to be about enjoying life and the hobby we all enjoy and we are fortunate enough to be able to take part in.

-Josh

A clean handed [non boat building?] , pencil pushing, non racing , not mechanically inclined, rigging thief that it can't be proven even stepped in an Apache.
I can't understand the reasoning behind or or agree with that putdown.

Apologies that it came of as an attack, don't take it personally... his team built some excellent boats, including your own..... whether or not he did the work or just managed it doesn't really matter because the end result is something that we all enjoy.

Apache's whether Saccenti built or McManus built are all aces in my book!:cool:

Quote:

---

his team built some excellent boats

---

Mr. McManus is Mr. Apache.

Yes, that is the one we have. The boat is a 1989, so I imagine that it was at the show when it was new, but I am not certain.

It's all good...

Are you going to buy one or do you already own one?

Like his former boss... Don A and any other successful Boss.
McManus is agreed even here on the Internet to be the No1 restorer of Apaches, so he must do something right...

Amen.

but not forgetting the others from the tribe.

I think he works for McManus or is the one.... (joke).

I think it was a Freudian slip and panther regrets that and the fact he sold his Sutphen (just pulling your leg..)...now is this your old boat..if yes, congrats on the sounds?!
Sutphen

*Ugh,Peace!

Joke warning!

A Engineer then?:readinghelp:

:D...exactly my point.

Anybody who thinks Mark McManus or Bobby Saccenti isn't a "Hands-on" boat builder, they are sadly mistaken or had never been to either factory during a normal business day.

Morning everyone! Is Anyone going for a ride on their Apache today?

Not really a slip but it was meant to be a response to your post, not necessarily meant to be a slant on McManus....

I've never owned a Sutphen but do like them. I've only had the opportunity to ride in one, it had (3) 2.5 Bridgeports on it.... quick boat but very light, not an Apache ride but it was fast.

Everybody has a place in the world.

You misunderstood my point... My perspective is if you drive/race/build your product you are in tune with what needs to be done to make it better. If you don't....you need to rely on engineering logic and/or other people to do it for you....

Amazing how off topic this thread has gotten...as all Apache threads do...

Like Ed Cozzi said.... You get what you pay for....:ernaehrung004:

Thank You

After reading this, and I have to admit its been a good time:food-smiley-007: I looked around the classifieds and they really arn't priced much higher than most of the others when you look at the hardware involved. ( ck the 41 Shogren has) And while we are at it can someone explain to me why any if not ALL the builders or for that matter Merc gets the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that they can get for the products that for the most part have no warr, little or no service to speak of and they just keep charging more and more. I just don't understand any of it, and it seems to me that they are just priceing the small to middle income guys out of the sport........ Its not just the Apache's. :(

Question. Then why was/is Mr. McManus so damn successful with the Apache brand, without being a racer or engineer or whatever else?

I believe that I already answered that question......:rolleyes:

To reiterate..do you own or are you going to buy an Apache?

I'm not sure how you quantify success. Whatever McManus is doing, presumably it's satisfying to him. He's not building any boats and most likely avoiding all the hassles and money-losing that comes with the territory. My guess, based on what you can see and other's suppositions, is that he's making a living doing refits and such to existing Apaches. I've seen what he charges for his work and it seems like he's always got work so maybe he's smarter than the rest of us. I know Saccenti has had plenty of ups and downs since the split with Kramer's and that the latest Chief incarnation resulted in one boat being built, despite the name recognition and all the commotion surrounding him going back to building boats. Now, if I were in the market for a new boat, I'd sure as hell rather it be built by Bob than Mark.

In the end, it's a crowded marketplace these days in the $500K custom boat business.

Why not Mr. McManus, look at his experience and the resale, I think he even was the man personally responsible for painting up boats with wild graphics. He is the founder of mega power, wild painted offshore boats. It seems that many want to ride on his fame, but he has always weathered it out.