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Diesels for boats

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Old 04-27-2008, 05:51 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by MikeyFIN View Post
Oh boy...I see a lot of problems in that and how to improve the business..but lets just say with that you just wrote you ainīt gonna solve any efficieny or employment shortages,, You just run the guys and the equipment to the ground.
I have 48hrs at home every week and still earn about double and our companies somehow can afford it.
now if that same thinking you wrote goes on in the US marine industry no wonder they are in a problem too while trying to figure out diesels and highperformance boating.
Now Europeans do it constantly already..the key is Surface drives high Rpm Diesels and multigearboxes...
Enter Pat Weissman.
Buzzi wrote the book on how to build a fast diesel off shore boat. The problem with the U.S. go fast marine market is everybody has V-8 gas on the brain. They want to keep the same boats built around a V-8 gas engine with an out drive. The need is for the boats to be designed from the ground up around a diesel power plant. But nobody wants to do that because it would kill a lot of the boats built for the gasoline industry. Look at what they did to Pat. Diesels with gears started winning too much so they banned his gear boxes from racing.
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:06 PM
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firefox - did you drive for Direct Transit or Circle B by any chance?

I agree with your V-8 gas engine on the brain remark here in the US - dead on!!!

Agreed - Multispeed gear boxes make a difference, look at old ski boats with B&M tranny's in them

I'll add that despite what anyone thinks we have all the peices here in the US to make fast diesel production boats and the manufacturers choose not too. Why don't they, I don't know why not - maybe they just don't want to risk building a slug???

I would have thought we would have seen a Cigarette recently with diesels in it. It seems they are sending lots of boats out of the country, I'm surprised no mention of diesels?

As usaull, I'm going to challange a few things here, makes life interesting:

Please add pollution from the early diesels was a big part in killing them as well, for awhile they were banned from racing - remember?

You can't use a boat that leaves a black trail in the water for hours afterwards, see pic below - Buzzi caught crap all the time for that.

You mention Buzzi as writing the book so to speak??? - when Gancia was first built she was powered by 4 small Ivecos/Fiat and the boat was a slug!!!!

There were plenty of faster European diesel boats back then that could stomp on Buzzi. Buzzi finished, but was not necessarily the fastest!!! Remember those boats ran 2 big engines not 4 small ones like Buzzi, many a race Buzzi lost an engine and could still keep running strong. A twin engine boat with one down was dead in the water so to speak!!!

Enter Bonomi & Ferrari (not the auto maker) with Seatek and Buzzi's slug was now a star!!!

High speed diesel being a key, we in the US had them? Early Seatek's were not that high speed, they ran 3,100 rpm's, after that the natural limits of the Bosch pump stopped the engine from making power higher in the RPM range. A stock Cummins B that could rev 2,800 from the factory back then, with nothing but stronger springs and a pump tweak you could run the Cummins at 3,100 also all day - Seatek wasn't all that different rpm wise?

The surface drive (I assume Tri-max style) being a key???? I think a Merc #6 is just as fast with better steering and a greater trim range. The Tri-max set-up may weigh less than a Merc set-up BUT again take the red & yellow Shell boat with Merc #3 drives, Sabre diesels and she could outrun the Buzzi boat with ease - it just broke too often.

A boat having to be built for diesels, except for engine room length???? Look at the Buzzi hulls, narrow, very deep V, very small strakes & the only think good about them was the two steps (lots of rocker) - there is nothing else about his hulls that said a diesel should work in them??? In fact it's just the opposite, they were not made to carry the weight hence a wing to make lift and keep the boat stable because the ass was too heavy!

But you put enough Hp in anything and it can go like hell!!!

Take almost any of today's multistepped hulls and they should work great. In fact I would tell you a Fountain should probably be the best hull around for a diesel with the pad bottom, it can carry the weight easier.

What Buzzi did was put together all the right peices that could be legal for racing and win. Buzzi was very smart in seeing if you took the rules to the edge with diesels he could have enough Hp to beat the gas engine boats. Buzzi was not about diesels, he was about winning and saw that if he could squeeze in 4 diesel engines that would give him the ability to win eventually.

The one thing I think is most overlooked about Buzzi is he was a great throttleman - he pushed a boat more than anyone I have ever seen. He told me, "Joe, you need to go full throttle from the start, never slow down, make the other boats chase you - they will break, my boats won't"
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Old 04-27-2008, 11:51 PM
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80+ MPH performance boat is available by Mystic Powerboats, but its 70 ft long and will set you back 7 figures. There is als a 60, or anything else that someone wants them to build.

Why they are not in smaller boat?
-Surface drives are most efficient, and they take up space adding cost and engineering time, and add to the LOA which adds to storage costs and may limit where you can keep it. (when compared to a std bravo and when retrofitting a design to accomodate them or using a rudder system)
-They are heavier then gas of equal power, there is no way around this, so you have to use lighter more expensive materials and building process (vacume bagged, post cured epoxy) ALSO your center of gravity will be off so you need to move the engines foward, which takes up a lot of room. (surface drives are lighter but may nto make up the difference)

SO you have a longer, more expensive boat, with less seating capacity or cabin space.
I'm all for it but if your going to use diesels, its best to design a boat to optimize their use, like the sunseeker XS, which I dont think sold any boats here, but is racing P1 with Iveco diesels (lighter then yanmar 480's)

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Old 04-28-2008, 12:31 AM
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Damn I know this one is gonna stir up the natives. In line surface drives are the shizzle. Ones like the ZF Trimax, Arneson, and Flexi Drive. They trim on a tangent to the line of thrust. You can't get any better X dimension than with them. With some heavy rocker or narrowed beam aft to get the nose up they will run hell a good. The "outdrive configuration" Your power has to make 2 hard turns to make it to the prop. Thats weak. Their trim is off tangent to the line of thrust. They try all kinds of things to improve the X dimension. They are only popular cause of the "We always did it that way" mentality. Also Lost go talk to RIK he can show you a Donzi 22 with an Arneson Drive. There are tons of fast patrol boats with surface drives that regularly run down outdrive type go fast boats like they are road kill.

P.S. Nice pic of the Gancia! Did they finish the resto yet?

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Old 04-28-2008, 04:41 AM
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Regarding Surface Drives yes Firefow we think the same.
Somebody will say a #6 is one but not in my book, just a Z-drive.

Regarding big manufacturers yes I think they all offer diesels if you just keep asking.
Way back I asked Cigarettes opinion and they thougth a Tiger would work with triple Yanmars if my memeory serves correct.. might been a twin configuration too.

Fountain sells at least 47īs with Yanmars that I know of.
Donīt recall what the drives are.

The problem with diesels will be that they will eventually when they get older sometimes puff out a smoke onceinawhile, just like Iīve witnessed modern diesel cars do when you step on them at low speed and in high gear.
If just people would see how much those small diesels puff out.
My big rig is lot cleaner and I see my sidepipes..(itīs allabout proper use of the engine and gears IMO)
Another problem is that the engines do not sound as good as a Gasoline V-8.

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Old 04-28-2008, 07:47 AM
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Mikeyfin - the engines do not sound as good as a Gasoline V-8I

I've said that before on here, your right 100% - it's all about image.

I'm not saying a #6 is a true surface drive - I'm disputing the statement that a "surface drive" is key to making a diesel boat fast. Which is more efficent is irrelevant, the little amount of Hp you loose with a stern drive does make or break the diesel argument. That goes for trim as well, the stern drive can better control boat attitude than a true surface drive.

firefox - who did you drive for????? With the operation you describe I would have to know them, all teams, big annual miles could only be one of a few companies - DOT line maybe?

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Old 04-28-2008, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostinBoston View Post
Why they are not in smaller boat?
-Surface drives are most efficient, and they take up space, adding cost and engineering time, and add to the LOA which adds to storage costs and may limit where you can keep it.
-
As far as the Arneson is concerned, we are no longer than the alternative or even the #6 Speedmaster.

We do not require any more space than others nor a #6 Speedmaster and there is no engineering cost associated with the Arneson over others.

We are lighter than the alternatives, 285 lbs vs a #6 Speedmaster of 620 lbs.

We damn sure are no more expensive than a #6 Speedmaster or others.

A #6 Speedmaster is 48" OAL. A #8 Arneson is 42" OAL.

There a lot of mis conceptions out there to a lot of things. The diesel package that Fountain uses for example is the Cummins QSB 480 with the above mentioned ASD8 in line drive units.

This saves Fountain $41K in outdrive cost when compared to a set of #6's. It takes 670 lbs out of the boat with the same comparison and there are no corrosion concerns with the same comparison.
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:03 PM
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Rik,
You are absolutly correct in your comparison to a 6. I was more comparing to a bravo style drive.
If the boat was designed from the ground up for surface drives, design time would be about the same.
For retrofitting, or modifying a hull for surface drives/diesels though...........
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:50 PM
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Bits and pieces

First about a good sounding engine. Have you ever heard a J&T 6v53? Some of my customers had them Ocean 38 sport fishers with em. They had an open exhaust. The ones that I inframed with some McBee CNC pistons fresh reliabuilt heads, turbos, blowers and injectors. A real @nal retentive injector timing, rack and retarder adjustment job. Ahhh that monsterous BRAAAAP!!! When you get on it. Be the best sounding boat when the gun goes at the billfish tourney and out front too
About the surface drive vs out drive thing. It has nothing to do with the gas vs diesel argument. Gas or diesel the surface drive is gonna perform better. Look at what OSG Racing did with Flexi Drives on a Donzi a couple years back. I think Donzi still has some videos on their site. Watch the videos you will see how the suface drives and out drives run different.
Joe I ran for the company whos drivers have no log books. The logs are kept in a main frame computer in Omaha Nebraska. Logging is done via the Qualcom. Ya know the big blue trucks that aren't liked very much by most other drivers.
RIK you forgot the Arnesons don't disintegrate like the Merc #6 drives do when you lean on em with some good old fashioned Diesel torque.

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Old 04-28-2008, 09:10 PM
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Ah Big Blue, I see!!!!

Detroit's always had a good sound, they barked all right!!! When the Captains come into weigh-in and they backdown to the scales hammer down!!! They sound good, but just don't have that gas sound, like it's spitting or something, A good gas engine with a rough idle and some cam plus the smell of Cam 2 gas - you can't beat that it's almost sweet smelling!
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