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Originally Posted by Apathetic
(Post 2603232)
but don't you think it's MUCH more foolish to give them any FUTURE business? -James
Originally Posted by Ratickle
(Post 2603250)
if the Coast Guard is towing a commercial fishing vessel back to port that was in danger of crashing on the rocks, but half way back a SeaTow vessel shows up and they let him finish the tow, SeaTow can claim salvage?
Originally Posted by bcschoe
(Post 2603257)
Having them stand up at the meeting and offer services and then not follow through with anything they said they would do for us. I/We trusted and defened them in the face of a bad situation and then they rolled us under the bus.
Originally Posted by VetteLT193
(Post 2603262)
Our laws follow the reasonable standard and it is unreasonable to have a tow membership and have them screw you on the back end. The membership legal notes make it sound like you are covered unless it's a major problem. Not any reasonable person would read that statement and think twice. So, even if they are legally salvaging then they are committing fraud on the membership side of things.
I think they would go down in flames in court with a half way decent attorney. In regards to a comment you made earlier about losing money on basic tows: Sea Tow makes money in the mass number of members. I agree they might lose money if they have to tow you, but they make up for it in the rest of the members that never call. Just like AAA does. "If you are a fan of fairness, don't become a lawyer" "You go to court for a decision, not justice "Being right has nothing to do with prevailing under the law ...and many more The maritime law is written the way it is and hasn't changes much in very, very many years for good reason- it works for the vast majority of interested parties. There are predatory operators working in the margins, preying on pleasure boaters who have little or no knowledge of these laws or the operations of salvors. They applu their logic and their land-based paradigms and toss in a sens of honesty and fairness but in the end, they get boned hard. If you want to do a little research, Cornell Law has an excellent on-line law library. These salvage issues have been the topic of many appeals court and Supreme Court decisions over the years. Maritime law is pretty much bulletproof. As far as the AAA analogy- AAA has no opportunity to charge you $8,000 if your car has a flat and it's raining really hard when they change it. Of course, SeaTow would like every boater to sign up and pay their membership- but more for the fact that they'll get a direct call instead of a random UHF hail for help. Unlike AAA that relies on a membership stream, salvors rely on high-dollar salvage operations. There's a reason Seatow exists where they do. if they wanted to be "real" marine salvors, they'd be out doing the big commercial work. Instead, they've found a very lucrative niche- it's high-reward with low risk and fairly low capital expenditure. They're simply skimming the cream found in a legality that was intended for and beneficial to an industry of an entirely different scale and economic. |
Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin
(Post 2603313)
Brad- you're absolutely right. The group of SeaTow operators you were dealing with were certainly a bunch of unscrupulous cocksuckers. They probably had every intention of pulling this from the start- they had to know at least one boat would go over. One thing I would suggest in the future is a blanket contract between anyone you may have an agreement-for-services with. It would be signed by the contractor, the promoter and each individual racer. That way, when, for example, SeaTow asks for $8,000, you havd them a copy and say "sorry". It's ad that you can't take a person's word these days but not surprising, considering the "professional vulture" nature of these people. In fact, I don't know that I'd want an associative relationship with any of the operators in this business. In the case of Boat US, I believe they're all on the AAA model- primarily relying on contractors. Once you get to that point that it's no longer a tow, you're right back to the wild, wild West. I already have a call into an independant towing services company to begin dialogue for a written contractual agreement for next year as well as the possibility of other like events within the area. |
Originally Posted by Sydwayz
(Post 2603270)
If someone can create an abridged "this is what you need to know guide"; I'll pin it up as a new Thread in the Boating Safety Forum. We all need to know what the actual terms mean and what the consequences of each of those terms are.
Whatever it is that we come up with, it can't be a "Sea Tow sucks" narrative, but it can advise that their services are shady. In a subsequent post on that thread, we'll link this one and the one from the past as "case studies." I'd look forward to a post by Brad or Chris, or someone else in the know, on the subject. My attorney now has this season's new law grads in his office. They're all waiting on bar exam results- he keeps trying to pawn them off on me. I'm going to "put the arm" on him and have them do some legwork on this. We'll get something together. |
Originally Posted by exshipdude
(Post 2602301)
Hi all,
As much as I hate to bring up another old sore topic, I think it will help educate everyone since we have been down this path before and there is so much mis-information being posted. Check out this previous thread concerning a similar situation (please read the entire thread). The last page even offers suggestions to the race boat guys on how not to have this happen to them, since the race promoters are not willing to take the necessary steps. http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ght=exshipdude I do not want to debate the Miami topic, I have checked into the situaion and feel he did a good job and charged appropriotly for the services rendered. I would define the service as Recovery more than Salvage, but Salvage is the legally acceptable term, which is why it is used. Thanks, Joe |
I looked at my TowBoatUS agreement- they do have coverage for "soft grounding" as well as an arbitration mechanism for setting salvage fees.
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I have several close friends who are lawyers and one in particular who has been a partner in several business ventures. I hear a number of things from them when it's "just us" "If you are a fan of fairness, don't become a lawyer" "You go to court for a decision, not justice "Being right has nothing to do with prevailing under the law ...and many more The maritime law is written the way it is and hasn't changes much in very, very many years for good reason- it works for the vast majority of interested parties. There are predatory operators working in the margins, preying on pleasure boaters who have little or no knowledge of these laws or the operations of salvors. They applu their logic and their land-based paradigms and toss in a sens of honesty and fairness but in the end, they get boned hard. If you want to do a little research, Cornell Law has an excellent on-line law library. These salvage issues have been the topic of many appeals court and Supreme Court decisions over the years. Maritime law is pretty much bulletproof. As far as the AAA analogy- AAA has no opportunity to charge you $8,000 if your car has a flat and it's raining really hard when they change it. Of course, SeaTow would like every boater to sign up and pay their membership- but more for the fact that they'll get a direct call instead of a random UHF hail for help. Unlike AAA that relies on a membership stream, salvors rely on high-dollar salvage operations. There's a reason Seatow exists where they do. if they wanted to be "real" marine salvors, they'd be out doing the big commercial work. Instead, they've found a very lucrative niche- it's high-reward with low risk and fairly low capital expenditure. They're simply skimming the cream found in a legality that was intended for and beneficial to an industry of an entirely different scale and economic. I understand where you are coming from. I did a search of cases and none come up in the capacity we are talking about. Maritime law is fine and tested. Great. Does anyone know of any cases that are Maritime law + a membership to a tow service? That is where it crosses the line. |
Do you mean a case where someone thought they were getting a tow under a membership arrangement and the provider claims it to be a salvage?
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Originally Posted by LubeJobs42
(Post 2598777)
Yesterday when the Lamborghini of Miami boat flipped and the guys were safely out of the boat (thank God!) Sea Tow was dispatched to the boat. .
My question is, if it's a permitted race, where seaTow is contracted How can they claim salvage?! But, was there a contract in place? Not! Nothing short of ransom, scumbags.:mad: |
If you can throw an anchor, are you still considered in peril?
If you are truly in peril, how many boaters will have the werewithall to pull out their salvage contract and negotiate their rescue? For those boaters with insurance, do you have the 24hr service number programmed into your cell phone? What's worse: dropping anchor in a navigable waterway and explaining to USCG/law enforcement why you did it, or having a "salvor" come and rescue you only to have them hold your boat hostage when you can't pay their fee? |
Ok the boat was handed over to sea tow to be towed to the crane. Sea tow handed the boat back over to another boat which took it to the crane??
In my mind they neglected to finish the "salvage"job and there for forefit the compensation. Also if you can prove that the boat suffered continued damage while under sea tows control you can claim Salvor's negligence. |
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