Question about Safety
09-10-2008 | 11:45 AM
#51
Allergic to Nonsense
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,007
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From: Granite Quarry, NC
There is a reason racers have gone to canopies, 5 point harnesses , onboard O2, etc. As long as folks continue to run these excessive speeds in open cockpit boats you are going to have the occasional tragedy. To expand upon Chris's point of the odds being much more in favor of the pros, I believe I read a quote from Teague once where he states, in his opinion, the number of people that are truly skilled enough to run speeds above 100 MPH is very, very small. Some of these boats are approaching NASCAR speeds on a surface which is unpredictible with no safety equipment to protect them in case of an accident. Continuing on the NASCAR theme, can you imagine a race today, even on a short track, where they ran convertibles with no roll bars, seat belts, helmets, etc. Seriously, how much of a difference is there in the event of a wreck?
T2x
09-10-2008 | 11:53 AM
#52
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,042
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From: Toledo Oh
There is a reason racers have gone to canopies, 5 point harnesses , onboard O2, etc. As long as folks continue to run these excessive speeds in open cockpit boats you are going to have the occasional tragedy. To expand upon Chris's point of the odds being much more in favor of the pros, I believe I read a quote from Teague once where he states, in his opinion, the number of people that are truly skilled enough to run speeds above 100 MPH is very, very small. Some of these boats are approaching NASCAR speeds on a surface which is unpredictible with no safety equipment to protect them in case of an accident. Continuing on the NASCAR theme, can you imagine a race today, even on a short track, where they ran convertibles with no roll bars, seat belts, helmets, etc. Seriously, how much of a difference is there in the event of a wreck?
dont forget to add a few passengers in each convertible, and a cooler in some... and did I mention the occasional bikini clad blonde laying on the trunk lid soaking up the rays??
09-10-2008 | 08:57 PM
#54
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 835
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From: West Michigan
There is a reason racers have gone to canopies, 5 point harnesses , onboard O2, etc. As long as folks continue to run these excessive speeds in open cockpit boats you are going to have the occasional tragedy. To expand upon Chris's point of the odds being much more in favor of the pros, I believe I read a quote from Teague once where he states, in his opinion, the number of people that are truly skilled enough to run speeds above 100 MPH is very, very small. Some of these boats are approaching NASCAR speeds on a surface which is unpredictible with no safety equipment to protect them in case of an accident. Continuing on the NASCAR theme, can you imagine a race today, even on a short track, where they ran convertibles with no roll bars, seat belts, helmets, etc. Seriously, how much of a difference is there in the event of a wreck?
09-10-2008 | 09:00 PM
#55
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 835
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From: West Michigan
Wasn't being personal, just that in the same circumstances as the Cumberland accident, he was doing something in my opinion he loved and not endangering to any innocents. Not much else I would have done differently. I hope we all learn something from that and the NJ incident. In NJ, why did the canopy fail?
09-10-2008 | 09:50 PM
#57
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,881
Likes: 1
From: Monroe, LA
I love you guys but I've had too much to drink to read this whole thread. If this has been suggested, please EXCUUUUUSE MEEEEEE!
Anyway, how about the old simpler is better thing... two drogue (sp? airplane guys help me out) chutes on the stern of either sponson of a cat mated to an accelerometer to guage roll to port and starboard. Roll too fast and the drogue chute on the low side deploys and spark to the motors is cut.
PM me and I'll tell you where to mail my royalty check. And NO, I do NOT volunteer to test the system.
Anyway, how about the old simpler is better thing... two drogue (sp? airplane guys help me out) chutes on the stern of either sponson of a cat mated to an accelerometer to guage roll to port and starboard. Roll too fast and the drogue chute on the low side deploys and spark to the motors is cut.
PM me and I'll tell you where to mail my royalty check. And NO, I do NOT volunteer to test the system.
09-11-2008 | 12:05 AM
#58
Charter Member #1093
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 660
Likes: 0
From: Lighthouse Point & Ocean Reef FL
Hi Guys,
Have enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. As has been stated, there are a number of issues with air entrapment hulls that make them singificantly different from a pure aerodynamic (plane) or hydrodynamic (water surface vessel) issue. My Buddy T2x (yes I admitted that publicly, it was part of my 12 step graduation...) has a ton of experience in designing, building and driving cats as well as filming and watching literally 1,000s of miles of racing (air entrapment and Vee). The best combination of minds on this subject come from the scientific/engineering world (Chris Sunkins comments for example) and the empirical racing world (T2x for example). I've been blessed to drive the hulls of some of the best in both worlds including Ron Jones Sr and Jr, Ed Karelsen, Norm Berg, Mike Hanson, Jon Staudacher, and the fellow who designed all of the recent Buds, and our teams newest Unlimited. I've subsequently crashed about everything they developed
We've tried gyros, flaps, drone chutes, air brakes, transom "daggars", wheelie "bars", aft mounted tiplets or winglets and air slots in our decks. It isn't their failures of design that caused the crashes. It's nature at work. You can blow over a pencil with enough force. Once the enertia has begun, and the angle of incidence too great, nothing but God will bring it safely down. Thus the development of safety cells, canopies, air systems etc. When the reality was accepted that we can only reduce but not eliminate blowovers (and that's all I'm speaking to, not stuffing, barrel rolls, etc) then surviving the inevitable became the primary goal. Sadly we lost alot of really fine people in the development of todays safety systems, and we'll lose more as the learning continues. We have lost Blue Angel pilots during airshows, arguably the finest trained pilots in the world with safety budgets that dwarf the entire racing budgets of every boat racing team in America combined. Accidents happen. Boat racing involves a set of variables that no other race vehicle encounters (to the best of my knowledge) be it wind, water, waves from multiple directions, accel and deaccel, yaw, roll and pitch instability, propellers hooking up and breaking free, momentum and immediate removal of thrust, etc.
If you're desirous of going fast in a boat, use the best safety systems possible. Visit a race shop of a quality team and inspect their set ups. Although we're competitive, safety is one issue where the technology is freely shared. Our shop in Madison, Indiana is available to anyone to visit with an appointment and check out our safety systems.
Thank you again for your ideas. So many times it's what may look like a whacky idea that ends up becoming something that will save someones life.
Steve
Have enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. As has been stated, there are a number of issues with air entrapment hulls that make them singificantly different from a pure aerodynamic (plane) or hydrodynamic (water surface vessel) issue. My Buddy T2x (yes I admitted that publicly, it was part of my 12 step graduation...) has a ton of experience in designing, building and driving cats as well as filming and watching literally 1,000s of miles of racing (air entrapment and Vee). The best combination of minds on this subject come from the scientific/engineering world (Chris Sunkins comments for example) and the empirical racing world (T2x for example). I've been blessed to drive the hulls of some of the best in both worlds including Ron Jones Sr and Jr, Ed Karelsen, Norm Berg, Mike Hanson, Jon Staudacher, and the fellow who designed all of the recent Buds, and our teams newest Unlimited. I've subsequently crashed about everything they developed
We've tried gyros, flaps, drone chutes, air brakes, transom "daggars", wheelie "bars", aft mounted tiplets or winglets and air slots in our decks. It isn't their failures of design that caused the crashes. It's nature at work. You can blow over a pencil with enough force. Once the enertia has begun, and the angle of incidence too great, nothing but God will bring it safely down. Thus the development of safety cells, canopies, air systems etc. When the reality was accepted that we can only reduce but not eliminate blowovers (and that's all I'm speaking to, not stuffing, barrel rolls, etc) then surviving the inevitable became the primary goal. Sadly we lost alot of really fine people in the development of todays safety systems, and we'll lose more as the learning continues. We have lost Blue Angel pilots during airshows, arguably the finest trained pilots in the world with safety budgets that dwarf the entire racing budgets of every boat racing team in America combined. Accidents happen. Boat racing involves a set of variables that no other race vehicle encounters (to the best of my knowledge) be it wind, water, waves from multiple directions, accel and deaccel, yaw, roll and pitch instability, propellers hooking up and breaking free, momentum and immediate removal of thrust, etc.If you're desirous of going fast in a boat, use the best safety systems possible. Visit a race shop of a quality team and inspect their set ups. Although we're competitive, safety is one issue where the technology is freely shared. Our shop in Madison, Indiana is available to anyone to visit with an appointment and check out our safety systems.
Thank you again for your ideas. So many times it's what may look like a whacky idea that ends up becoming something that will save someones life.
Steve
09-12-2008 | 05:06 AM
#59
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 835
Likes: 6
From: West Michigan
Hi Guys,
Have enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. As has been stated, there are a number of issues with air entrapment hulls that make them singificantly different from a pure aerodynamic (plane) or hydrodynamic (water surface vessel) issue.
If you're desirous of going fast in a boat, use the best safety systems possible. Visit a race shop of a quality team and inspect their set ups. Although we're competitive, safety is one issue where the technology is freely shared. Our shop in Madison, Indiana is available to anyone to visit with an appointment and check out our safety systems.
Thank you again for your ideas. So many times it's what may look like a whacky idea that ends up becoming something that will save someones life.
Steve
Have enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. As has been stated, there are a number of issues with air entrapment hulls that make them singificantly different from a pure aerodynamic (plane) or hydrodynamic (water surface vessel) issue.
If you're desirous of going fast in a boat, use the best safety systems possible. Visit a race shop of a quality team and inspect their set ups. Although we're competitive, safety is one issue where the technology is freely shared. Our shop in Madison, Indiana is available to anyone to visit with an appointment and check out our safety systems.
Thank you again for your ideas. So many times it's what may look like a whacky idea that ends up becoming something that will save someones life.
Steve
09-12-2008 | 05:13 AM
#60
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 835
Likes: 6
From: West Michigan
