Well It is time for a change-Poker Runs and Racing
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And since credentials are being questioned...Let me state mine before posting...(don't want anyone mad at me)...
As an life long offshore boating enthusiast, multiple boat owner and 25+ year rescue diver for both Thunderboats (Unlimited hydroplanes) and Offshore, I feel the saftey issue is of utmost importance...
When I attend poker runs and racing events, I look at the various beautiful boats...monster cats (canopied or otherwise) and other rock N roll machines... and the 1st thing that automatically comes to mind, is how best to perform an "extraction/unstuffing"????...regarless of craft size or type...(just my training)
And I always query the course saftey logistics, saftey crew size, training and the rescue crew's ability to repsond in a timely manner...
Many rescue crews consist of volunteers (both trained & untrained) and are lacking in training &/or experience...in addition, the majority of local LEO teams are trained in victim recovery...not, I repeat, not, just-in-time/real-time accident victim rescue...
That is why we are seeing such long & lengthy victim recovery times...
This is but, my humble opinion...
And I mean no offense to the local LEO dive /rescue teams...
I also agree that speeds of upward of 150 mph make it very, very difficult to respond immediately, unless you are the angel (helicopter), have far more 1st responders stationed along the course or manning some "yet to be seen" specialty modified "super-go-fast" rescue craft...
On an open course, such as a poker run, you have so many risk variables like speed, course, distance, spectators & normal boating traffic, but I have to ask...what qualifies some of the drivers to run at 150mph, other than the size of their wallets???
And please, don't get me wrong, I love speed as much as the next and have the ability/access to such boats, but I'm not sure if I've got the skills to control a wake-bound cat at 150mph...And I'm quite sure, those unfortunate high speed victims, would say the same, if given another chance...
Question: Would it be too much to ask/require all poker run boat drivers, over certain capable speeds, to do the Tres Martin thing or something similar??? At least that would offer some level of saftey certification, training and reduce risk/liability???
In addition, I understand Pesky's position, regarding the peer/pier pressure and poker run fun issue...Again, I have the access and means to run the super fast boats, but I choose not to...It would not be safe, especially with passengers/guests who only attend poker runs for the loud noise, moderate speed (60-75 mph), fun and pre/post activities...
It's pretty funny, when I'm passed, that one of my passengers will ask...How much faster is that boat than yours...My reply is always...oh, about a couple hundred thousand $$$ faster"...
Therefore, I'm relagated to running in the lower 1/2 - 3/4 of the pack, which is fine...because, I know my limits...For instance, how fast can a 46 BT or any boat w/o triples go???
I also agree that the non-sponsored and less finacially able boaters are being pressured out of participating as as well...
With the recent economic down-turn, it may be advantagous to include a more "fun run" friendly aspect to many of these poker runs...
I realize it's currently a zero-sum game...The higher ticket boats, will require higher ticket prizes, to justify the higher attendce cost, which then, reqire the promoters to charge higher fees...
Again, I just want to run and have fun...
Boating is becoming much more like sledding...
"Everybody wants to be 1st and in front"...
Unfortunately, like sledders, more and more boaters are ending up in the trees...
My 2 cents...
Divenstar
BTW...I'm really pissed that I can not find Offshore anything on the Speed Channel anymore...
Agreed!Originally Posted by divenstar
Marc, both you and Pesky Varmit are on point...And since credentials are being questioned...Let me state mine before posting...(don't want anyone mad at me)...
As an life long offshore boating enthusiast, multiple boat owner and 25+ year rescue diver for both Thunderboats (Unlimited hydroplanes) and Offshore, I feel the saftey issue is of utmost importance...
When I attend poker runs and racing events, I look at the various beautiful boats...monster cats (canopied or otherwise) and other rock N roll machines... and the 1st thing that automatically comes to mind, is how best to perform an "extraction/unstuffing"????...regarless of craft size or type...(just my training)
And I always query the course saftey logistics, saftey crew size, training and the rescue crew's ability to repsond in a timely manner...
Many rescue crews consist of volunteers (both trained & untrained) and are lacking in training &/or experience...in addition, the majority of local LEO teams are trained in victim recovery...not, I repeat, not, just-in-time/real-time accident victim rescue...
That is why we are seeing such long & lengthy victim recovery times...
This is but, my humble opinion...
And I mean no offense to the local LEO dive /rescue teams...
I also agree that speeds of upward of 150 mph make it very, very difficult to respond immediately, unless you are the angel (helicopter), have far more 1st responders stationed along the course or manning some "yet to be seen" specialty modified "super-go-fast" rescue craft...
On an open course, such as a poker run, you have so many risk variables like speed, course, distance, spectators & normal boating traffic, but I have to ask...what qualifies some of the drivers to run at 150mph, other than the size of their wallets???
And please, don't get me wrong, I love speed as much as the next and have the ability/access to such boats, but I'm not sure if I've got the skills to control a wake-bound cat at 150mph...And I'm quite sure, those unfortunate high speed victims, would say the same, if given another chance...
Question: Would it be too much to ask/require all poker run boat drivers, over certain capable speeds, to do the Tres Martin thing or something similar??? At least that would offer some level of saftey certification, training and reduce risk/liability???
In addition, I understand Pesky's position, regarding the peer/pier pressure and poker run fun issue...Again, I have the access and means to run the super fast boats, but I choose not to...It would not be safe, especially with passengers/guests who only attend poker runs for the loud noise, moderate speed (60-75 mph), fun and pre/post activities...
It's pretty funny, when I'm passed, that one of my passengers will ask...How much faster is that boat than yours...My reply is always...oh, about a couple hundred thousand $$$ faster"...
Therefore, I'm relagated to running in the lower 1/2 - 3/4 of the pack, which is fine...because, I know my limits...For instance, how fast can a 46 BT or any boat w/o triples go???
I also agree that the non-sponsored and less finacially able boaters are being pressured out of participating as as well...
With the recent economic down-turn, it may be advantagous to include a more "fun run" friendly aspect to many of these poker runs...
I realize it's currently a zero-sum game...The higher ticket boats, will require higher ticket prizes, to justify the higher attendce cost, which then, reqire the promoters to charge higher fees...
Again, I just want to run and have fun...
Boating is becoming much more like sledding...
"Everybody wants to be 1st and in front"...
Unfortunately, like sledders, more and more boaters are ending up in the trees...
My 2 cents...
Divenstar
BTW...I'm really pissed that I can not find Offshore anything on the Speed Channel anymore...
regurding sponsored boats
It is not nessesarily a bad thing
Sponsor boats are a GOOD THING
not sure why being sponsored would cause hardship
It is not nessesarily a bad thing
Sponsor boats are a GOOD THING
not sure why being sponsored would cause hardship
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Another observation about Poker Runs. I've learned that some of the attendees are sponsored. As an individual I don't see the point of shelling out my own hard earned money to play (misery loves company). You can't really enforce this matter, but it sure takes the fun out of it for us little guys. I won't go to Poker Runs where I get wind of someone who is sponsored.
I'm sure those sponsored people will have a problem with my viewpoint. That's fine, we'll have our Poker Runs, you have yours, and everybodies happy.
Pesky Varmint
I also suggest as Varmit does, that they/we add a "predicted course" component to the poker runs...Similar to what we do with the "Big" boats in the local Power Squadron...Originally Posted by Pesky Varmint
There's an excellent precedent for where Poker Runs could go. Automotive road rallys have always awarded people for exact timing, being too fast is penalized. Which ties into the observation I've long made that there is a lot of fast boat owners that know how to get the best possible speed out of their boats. But know nothing about how to give their passengers a nice ride at reasonable speeds (maybe part of the contest is something like balancing an egg on the dash).Another observation about Poker Runs. I've learned that some of the attendees are sponsored. As an individual I don't see the point of shelling out my own hard earned money to play (misery loves company). You can't really enforce this matter, but it sure takes the fun out of it for us little guys. I won't go to Poker Runs where I get wind of someone who is sponsored.
I'm sure those sponsored people will have a problem with my viewpoint. That's fine, we'll have our Poker Runs, you have yours, and everybodies happy.
Pesky Varmint
As with road rallies...this would lead to an increase in boat driver/guest/navigator involvement & participation...
When adding, the navigational, speed-over-course and timing components to the poker run mix...
for the poker run participants, an increase in the seamanship and navigation skills would be the least of their value-added benefits...
Divenstar
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5) Always wearing life jackets when on plane. NO EXCEPTIONS! (most already do this)
Marc
Originally Posted by boatme
Poker Runs5) Always wearing life jackets when on plane. NO EXCEPTIONS! (most already do this)
Marc
Marc, Thank you for all of your thoughts and idea's. Great and let's all get behind them and do something NOW before Poker Runs/Fun Runs go away. I would like to comment on one thing perhaps that you may have overlooked. I believe that all boats registered in the event must have an operational kill tether. Having been thrown from a boat with the tether attached (to me), and being the only person aboard at the time, I am living proof that they do work. In light of all of the legal stuff that you have endured, thanks for keeping the spirit alive and kicking.
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It is not nessesarily a bad thing
Sponsor boats are a GOOD THING
not sure why being sponsored would cause hardship
Sponsored boats would not cause the hardship, but the exclusion of the ave. powerboat enthusiasts would...Originally Posted by boatme
regurding sponsored boats It is not nessesarily a bad thing
Sponsor boats are a GOOD THING
not sure why being sponsored would cause hardship
My best fun run/poker run esc experience was running my Formula on a (now defunct) Michigan Offshore Crusing Association (M.O.C.A) fun run...in the Detroit River/Lk. St. Clair
Lot's of participation, but more importantly, the smiles and enthusiasm on the faces of ALL the participants...both big and small...the rich or not-so-rich...
Most of the little guys were overwhelmed and had expressed how "embarrassed & left out" they felt previous to that run...
I distinctly remember a guy with a 24ft offshore esc boat (Chapperall, I think...), enthusiastically screaming, "This is the Greatest"..."I'm a marginal go-fast boater and I never, ever thought that I could ever afford or have the opportunity to run with the Big Boys"...
I still look at the video we took on a regular basis...Lots of fun...
Again, not condemming the more fortunate among us...but, not ignoring the less fortunate either...
I realize that w/o some money...the poker runs cannot exist...
Divenstar
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My best fun run/poker run esc experience was running my Formula on a (now defunct) Michigan Offshore Crusing Association (M.O.C.A) fun run...in the Detroit River/Lk. St. Clair
Lot's of participation, but more importantly, the smiles and enthusiasm on the faces of ALL the participants...both big and small...the rich or not-so-rich...
Most of the little guys were overwhelmed and had expressed how "embarrassed & left out" they felt previous to that run...
I distinctly remember a guy with a 24ft offshore esc boat (Chapperall, I think...), enthusiastically screaming, "This is the Greatest"..."I'm a marginal go-fast boater and I never, ever thought that I could ever afford or have the opportunity to run with the Big Boys"...
I still look at the video we took on a regular basis...Lots of fun...
Again, not condemming the more fortunate among us...but, not ignoring the less fortunate either...
I realize that w/o some money...the poker runs cannot exist...
Divenstar
Nice to read an article like this, where the smaller guy is thought of. I remember the MOCA Poker Runs coming to the Windsor Yacht Club and it was a highlight for the locals to see all the performance boats.Originally Posted by divenstar
Sponsored boats would not cause the hardship, but the exclusion of the ave. powerboat enthusiasts would...My best fun run/poker run esc experience was running my Formula on a (now defunct) Michigan Offshore Crusing Association (M.O.C.A) fun run...in the Detroit River/Lk. St. Clair
Lot's of participation, but more importantly, the smiles and enthusiasm on the faces of ALL the participants...both big and small...the rich or not-so-rich...
Most of the little guys were overwhelmed and had expressed how "embarrassed & left out" they felt previous to that run...
I distinctly remember a guy with a 24ft offshore esc boat (Chapperall, I think...), enthusiastically screaming, "This is the Greatest"..."I'm a marginal go-fast boater and I never, ever thought that I could ever afford or have the opportunity to run with the Big Boys"...
I still look at the video we took on a regular basis...Lots of fun...
Again, not condemming the more fortunate among us...but, not ignoring the less fortunate either...
I realize that w/o some money...the poker runs cannot exist...
Divenstar
You all know where I stand on this and have stood for decades.
I agree with Marc's assessment of the problem.........
Racing is shrinking and some Poker Runs are out of control.
His solutions are probably not realistic because:
1. Poker Runs are bad events to go fast (over 70)under any circumstances. You have a wide variation of boats, speeds, closing rates, and driver experience.......a very risky soup at best.
2. There are really no acceptable safety and rescue crews at these events
3. There is no DRUG or alcohol TESTING that I know of at these events, nor are physicals administered. Many of the participants are not in the best shape.
4. In truth they should be well coordinated parades on the order of motorcycle Poker runs, where you can show off at the marina...but not while underway.
6. Races are for racing, but our sanctioning groups are too numerous, diverse, selfish and ego driven to advance themselves.
7. There are too many racing classes (with more invented all the time) for the sport to gain any meaningful audience or fan base.
8. " Charlie Checkbook" controls both formats, Poker Runs and racing. Either sponsors, big boat owners, or the "savior", AMF, sets the rules on the latest whim of a very few, generally shortsighted individuals with small minds and big cash flows...... and, of course, their legions of (financially rewarded....or fed) "fans and followers".
It's kind of like this year's election, you don't really have a decent choice.
My take on this is to sit back and wait until the whole current mess collapses of its own weight and ignorance. At that point assemble a single oversight group from the truly qualified leaders (Steve David, Dave Patnaude, George Linder,....etc)...... and create a single sanctioning body for performance boating from the ashes that remain.
At present the "noise" level remains too high, the chest thumping still rules the day, the often drunken egos lead the band, and the cheerleading continues for an ultimately losing dynamic.
T2x
I agree with Marc's assessment of the problem.........
Racing is shrinking and some Poker Runs are out of control.
His solutions are probably not realistic because:
1. Poker Runs are bad events to go fast (over 70)under any circumstances. You have a wide variation of boats, speeds, closing rates, and driver experience.......a very risky soup at best.
2. There are really no acceptable safety and rescue crews at these events
3. There is no DRUG or alcohol TESTING that I know of at these events, nor are physicals administered. Many of the participants are not in the best shape.
4. In truth they should be well coordinated parades on the order of motorcycle Poker runs, where you can show off at the marina...but not while underway.
6. Races are for racing, but our sanctioning groups are too numerous, diverse, selfish and ego driven to advance themselves.
7. There are too many racing classes (with more invented all the time) for the sport to gain any meaningful audience or fan base.
8. " Charlie Checkbook" controls both formats, Poker Runs and racing. Either sponsors, big boat owners, or the "savior", AMF, sets the rules on the latest whim of a very few, generally shortsighted individuals with small minds and big cash flows...... and, of course, their legions of (financially rewarded....or fed) "fans and followers".
It's kind of like this year's election, you don't really have a decent choice.
My take on this is to sit back and wait until the whole current mess collapses of its own weight and ignorance. At that point assemble a single oversight group from the truly qualified leaders (Steve David, Dave Patnaude, George Linder,....etc)...... and create a single sanctioning body for performance boating from the ashes that remain.
At present the "noise" level remains too high, the chest thumping still rules the day, the often drunken egos lead the band, and the cheerleading continues for an ultimately losing dynamic.
T2x
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As for the speed limit, just my 2 cents. I personally think the speed limit will be more dangerous. Just think about the slow, paced portion of the start, there are boats all over one another. Now take that same scenario and kick it up to 70 80 or 100. At those speeds there is not a lot of room for error at 15 feet from one another. The last I checked, my brakes didn’t work to well in either one of my boats. We need to space out the field and provide safe operating distances for everyone. Operate your boat at speeds you can safely avoid incident. If there are boats all around you then 150 is not going to work. If you are coming up on 80 mph boats at 150 mph, that is not going to work.
At the end of the day anyone can be sued for anything. Make sure you are doing the right thing. If your being a tool and someone gets hurt your deserve it. Just out of curiosity what were the past accidents caused by? Going to Fast? Going to Fast for the conditions? Operator Error? Equipment Error? To create a safer event we need to look at the history and find what the causes are and take what ever corrective measures are available. But as one Great man said “You Can’t fix Stupid”.
I would rather be in a canopy boat if it flipped but yet nothing is garenteed to be 100% safe. I remember a few years back Perfessional Racer Randy Linebach took his boat out for a test run away from everyone else and flipped his boat and unfortunately he never survived even though it was a canopy boat and there was a passionger with him who did survive. Maybe if there was a dive team following them he might of survived this flip or roll over. This is the same thing that can happen at a Poker Run or really anywhere and rescue crews are not always available to assist immediately. Maybe it is time for a rescue dive team helicopter at Poker Runs where there is high speeds and canopied boats.Originally Posted by Go Big
I guess I'll chime in on the canopy debate. I for one would rather roll my Canopied Skater at 120 then my Fountain at 80, with or without a rescue crew. If I’m upside down, I have time to collect myself and my passengers, and get out. I would much rather be strapped in, then try to collect everyone randomly scattered about the water. I do however think that the canopied boats should have full safety gear in order to be allowed to run (5 Point, Helmet, and Air). As for the speed limit, just my 2 cents. I personally think the speed limit will be more dangerous. Just think about the slow, paced portion of the start, there are boats all over one another. Now take that same scenario and kick it up to 70 80 or 100. At those speeds there is not a lot of room for error at 15 feet from one another. The last I checked, my brakes didn’t work to well in either one of my boats. We need to space out the field and provide safe operating distances for everyone. Operate your boat at speeds you can safely avoid incident. If there are boats all around you then 150 is not going to work. If you are coming up on 80 mph boats at 150 mph, that is not going to work.
At the end of the day anyone can be sued for anything. Make sure you are doing the right thing. If your being a tool and someone gets hurt your deserve it. Just out of curiosity what were the past accidents caused by? Going to Fast? Going to Fast for the conditions? Operator Error? Equipment Error? To create a safer event we need to look at the history and find what the causes are and take what ever corrective measures are available. But as one Great man said “You Can’t fix Stupid”.
[QUOTE=44MTI;2714359]I'm with Gino and Brandon on this one. It is a bit a double edged sword, but the fact is as Blee states, Speedlimits will kill pokerruns faster than a lawsuit.
Everyone needs to except it is just the nature of the beast, at least for the larger runs. People go to see the Flashy, Fast, new hardware, not the production boats you see every weekend. The people that build and maintain these monsters do so, so they can go fast with their buddies. Not to cruise at 110. So at best, it is a house of cards, impose speedlimits, the big boats quit coming and so follow the smaller ones. Yes there will always be the KW run and maybe a few smaller local ones. But nothing like we have all come to know and enjoy. These machines are expensive to build, upkeep and transport to these runs, so if you want to see them, you better give us a reason to spend the $$$$ :
Very well put Michael
Everyone needs to except it is just the nature of the beast, at least for the larger runs. People go to see the Flashy, Fast, new hardware, not the production boats you see every weekend. The people that build and maintain these monsters do so, so they can go fast with their buddies. Not to cruise at 110. So at best, it is a house of cards, impose speedlimits, the big boats quit coming and so follow the smaller ones. Yes there will always be the KW run and maybe a few smaller local ones. But nothing like we have all come to know and enjoy. These machines are expensive to build, upkeep and transport to these runs, so if you want to see them, you better give us a reason to spend the $$$$ :
Very well put Michael
Some of you guys JUST DONT GET IT!!!! The industry has been in trouble with these issues for sometime now and everyone just wants to look the other way, and hope it goes away. Truth be said the performance boat industry is soon going to go away. States and goverment are ready to put the clamps on this and the insurance companies are bailing out because of the risk. Many of your male egos refuse to listen because this is the last unregulated sport or event that allows many of you to show your skills and speed reguardless if it is reckless. And as far as Canopied boats go for pleasure,Many of you are unaware of the danger that they pose.
