I agree with Phragle about now being the right time to discuss. It is terribly unfortunate 2 well respected guys lost their lives this past weekend. However, I have seen similar discussions after minor accidents (and some major without injury or fatalities) and unfortunately the conversations are very short. While it is NEVER good to lose a life, we, as a boating community, need to take a step back, learn (as painful as it maybe), and try to prevent a similar situation in the future. In the previous threads that were closed there was some heated words (I myself went a bit overboard with a comment regarding the Pure Platinum Skater. I have not changed my stance, but now realize I could have used better words), even a few name calling (which I don't think was appropriate). However, I think a majority was constructive. None of us are ever going to all agree, but debating and throwing ideas out there is how ideas and solutions are created. Do I think egos are a big part of the problem? Yes. But it is human nature to be competitive, egos come along with that competitive nature. I believe rules regarding speed, safe distance, control of vessel, etc need to be reviewed and revised. But that won't do any good if not enforced. Enforcement is step one. Step two, we need to learn from our mistakes! Not find ways to justify our behavior or excuses. Part of being a man and becoming more of a man (or woman) is learning to suck up your pride, admit a mistake, and learn from it. I am not suggesting 60MPH poker runs, but we need a way to make these runs safer for all involved! I think more safety equipment needs to be mandatory. My opinion, all participants in these runs should be wearing approved life jackets, boat traveling at determined speeds,should require helmets, neck restraints, etc. The one thing that has me really fired up lately is the lack of concern some of these participants have for the spectator safety. The videos that have surfaced this week of multiple boats passing within feet of anchored boats is inexcusable! I could go on all night about what I think should be done....... We need to make this sport safer all around, not just for Poker Runs.

What it really comes down to the Poker runs cannot be a danger to those around them. The waterways are open to everyone during these runs, 14 ft fishing boats, houseboats, curiser skiers and tubers, and jet skis. Not everyone pays attention to there being a poker run on the water nor understands just what to expect for how fast and furious the "big boys" may be driving by them. Unless the waterways are closed to the public there is no way to insure those that may be out leisurely enjoying the lake won't impede the paths of the poker run boats. Fortunately, no innocent bystanders have been taken out by one these poker run accidents, but its only a matter of time with the excessive speeds. That is when you will see the authorities come down on the poker runs and it all comes to an end.

Does anyone think it is realistic on a summer Saturday to run 150mph in waterways filled with pleasure boaters?

I could see an open stretch of water set up for the big boys to throttle down sometime during the run that could be closed to the public boat traffic. Then spend the rest of the run keeping to a safe and reasonable speed.

To really put this in perspective, OPA has capped the speed of professional drivers in the super cats at 135 mph to make the racing safer. Yet, amateur poker runs are unlimited in speed.

I have enjoyed running poker runs the last 12 years, I hope to see them continue. But times are constantly changing, obviously boats are getting bigger and faster and the rules have to adapt to change to keep everyone safe.

By the way Marc, I love my Sunsation Dominator MCOB you put together in 07!

Dang Tom. We've been doing this for a while. Hope we can for the next twelve years.

I know pros that "get paid" to be first to the first stop.

It's nonsense..a battle of egos without proper safety crews and closed to traffic. No disrespect intended to the tragedy of the past weekend...but this is becoming far to common...

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Far too often, people with near unlimited funds get a feeling of invincibility. "I'm too wealthy to be vounerable"

In a totally unassociated but close comparison....

Multiple millonaire (closer to billion than million) Patrick logue died here in cape coral Sunday morning at about 12:20 am. For those of you familiar with the cape, he lived in the top of the tarpon point marina tower. He built from scratch first home builders.....sold to k-huv...then tactically repurchased all assets without debt and became sand-bill.

His ego of invincibility told him he could drive his Shelby Gt500 at any speed regardless of surroundings, governing bodies, or self awareness of potential hazard.

This is not in the news yet. Happened 5 days ago.

His 28 yr old gf has 3rd degree burns over 65% of her body, and pat burned to death in the car as the flames prohibited rescue.

Point is.....

Without a closed course, gunnin is dumb. Look at the near misses Tomlinson has had....and thank god without serious repercussions....other than financial.

I'm gettinoff my box now.....rip smith.....this should act as a wakeup call....not a point of controversy.

You have the blue Sunsation??

Was one of my favorite Mitch Paint jobs for the Sunsation boats That boat was a great compromise with the center cabin

When there are rules, but breaking the rules have no consequences, then there are no rules.

http:// http://www.lakecumberlandpokerrun.net/poker-run-rules/

A little insight on running wide open in larger water events (and a few other rants) LOL

We ran our event “Smoke On The Water” on lake Michigan with approximately 74 miles shore to shore where we started the run. I said in the drivers meeting each year. “If you are going to air it out go out a few miles and then be very mindful there is still fishing boats out there”. Every year after our event, I heard from more than one fisherman that they were out many miles fishing and still they had a poker run boat went by them at “Mach 1” less than 50 feet away from their boat. You can not fix stupid. I do not think these runs should take place in narrow rivers but being on a big body of water does not stop people from acting irresponsible either.

Ask yourself this, Why do the big boys not race a boat that goes faster than most sanctioned race boats? My thought is because they do not want to be told what to do, when to do it , and how to do it! One of the bigger reasons we stopped putting on our event was we had asked ourselves this question. Do we want to expose our selves to litigation and be responsible for the bad behavior of a few individuals that just can not keep it under control. (We were drug into a $10,000,000 lawsuit because of other peoples actions) We put on our event to do something great for participants as well as for the Make A Wish Kids. We took kids for rides and had activities going on for them all day Friday and raised money at our closed auction that night (we were Make A Wish of Michigan’s largest OUTSIDE contributor). We then ran the event on Saturday, Still the bottom feeding lawyers, and yes I will say it, the greedy family’s of the deceased men decided that somehow it was many peoples fault that these two men died, and they then reduced their loved ones value on this earth to dollars and cents. We decided that since one persons actions could result in the loss (and almost did) of every thing we worked for in life, we were no longer willing to take the heat for something we could not control.

I will say it again and again. You want to go super fast with your hair on fire then go racing!!!!
There is no speed limits on the water today. But I fear that is going to be the governments next easiest way to stop these problems. Who has the most resources and incentive to change this sport and regulate it? Lawyers, Government, and Insurance companies. These three groups are already working on ending the sport it is just taking longer to happen than I thought it would.

I agree with Pat as well. (Good points my friend) I have run the Miami to Key west poker run a few times in both my Black Thunder and later on in my Cigarette. When you come from Michigan it is much more enjoyable to enjoy the location than to see how fast you can go to the next location. Poker runs are supposed to be a rally to enjoy boating with like minded people not a race to get to the next stop. I think we all lost the true reason for these get together's ( I did not always wear my life jacket back then. I do today)

I feel terrible about the death of the two men this year but I also wrote much about how I felt when a boating friend of mine (Kevin Sellers) died in his Skater on the Cumberland Poker Run a few years ago. Or when when we lost 5 people on Lake Texoma Poker Runa few years ago. The clock is ticking, slower than I thought it would, but trust me time is running out. If we keep putting our heads in the sand Poker Runs are going to be over. My wish is that the guys (and girls) with the big bucks and the big kahunas would help make the racing component of offshore better and more fun to watch. With their resources and creativity I can only imagine how great offshore racing could be.

Lastly I am attaching this video from one of the years we ran our event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoYiQUy6f1I
At the time I thought this was very cool, today I think we were not responsible enough to realize the danger of this. We were on lake Michigan with plenty of water and still look how close everyone ran at the beginning . Notice the boat near the beginning going south amidst 120 boats headed North. That is scary to watch today. I have learned better and changed my mind about how to run events. It is time we change our thought processes. Stu Jones is a professional promoter and has had changed how he runs his events (for the better) and he and Jackie still have more work to do to keep up with emerging technology. Many other promoters are amateur, once a year promoters, who have no idea the exposure they have created for themselves and others. Speeds are higher than ever in these boats. We can not operate as we used to

One last time—IF YOU WANT TO RACE, BECOME A BOAT RACER !!!!!

My rant is over (for now)

Yes it is, I purchased it new after the bank got it.

One thing i nothiced there was not many cats in that video i attached We had plenty of cats in the event but when the water in Lake Michigan gets snotty they usually were not as stable in rough water and so were a bit farther back. Not all of them but many>
Here is one in our event that ran the rough stuff with the best, but if you watch it he was on the raged edge and almost stuffed a sponson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGDNYdVhuZk
YEa I know the music sucks but You Tube inserted that instead of the audio we had

[QUOTE=tmager;3993154]What it really comes down to the Poker runs cannot be a danger to those around them. The waterways are open to everyone during these runs, 14 ft fishing boats, houseboats, curiser skiers and tubers, and jet skis. Not everyone pays attention to there being a poker run on the water nor understands just what to expect for how fast and furious the "big boys" may be driving by them. Unless the waterways are closed to the public there is no way to insure those that may be out leisurely enjoying the lake won't impede the paths of the poker run boats. Fortunately, no innocent bystanders have been taken out by one these poker run accidents, but its only a matter of time with the excessive speeds. That is when you will see the authorities come down on the poker runs and it all comes to an end.

Does anyone think it is realistic on a summer Saturday to run 150mph in waterways filled with pleasure boaters?


IMO This IS the crux of the problem... Poker Runs DO take place in PUBLIC waterways and there are people out there who DO think it's safe to run their boat 150+ MPH weaving in and out of obstacles that are in the middle of their route to the finish line. (!)