Thanks Cat.. I'll check into it..Thanks for answering the question.

As to the thread being too old.. it's really not.. there are some good arguments and theories that still need to be explored....but only by professional people with out ego's involved.

You cant do that Joe I'm sure Fabio Buzzi would be devastated he is I understand a forum checker and I bet this thread is in his favourite all time list

Out of interest Joe and I hope you don't take offence, but how did back in the 80's you hook up and run boats with FB were you a European that emigrated to the US or a US guy checking out Europe or neither of the above

Back to FB he probably asks himself everyday similar questions how can diesel be more mass market in the US did he not occasionally hook up with Fountain on the odd project, perhaps he was hopping to develop diesel with them, although as has been mentioned before by us Uk guys the 39' Sunseeker XS2000 taken from the Buzzi drawing board has proven pretty popular in spite of it's fugly appearance and it' performance is not bad either running 76mph ish with 2x420hp yanmar engines on a 2 speed, and as I mentioned before a really horrid looking 39' FB rib that was alleged to have a top speed of early 90's mph with around 2x550hpish diesels took part in the UK CTC race, not bad performance from a not very aerodynamic looking machine with a weight of well over 9000lb so it seems diesel is not dead in Europe just yet

who knows perhaps FB blogs on here as a devils advocate

aquafun - I'm US born and rasied in NJ and still in NJ. We started playing with the Navistar 6.9 L V-8's back in 1983/84 to make a marinizied version.

Simply because our partner in the trucking businesses was sh*t scared of gas boats but liked my gas powered offshore boat and seen there was a hole in the marine market.

One variation to the next to 7.3L to Cummins B's, etc, etc and development work with both Navistar and Cummins, I've posted our old Cummins B literature on here somewhere?

Yoshiro Kitami, sought us out in the late 80's he has purchased Ebel the dark blue 38' later changed to black. He has these visions of diesel speedboats in Japan and patrol boats over there as well.

They flew into NY one night to see a 380 hp "B" run on the dyno and decided they needed it, the company and me. A deal was made and I owned part of Super Hero. That is how we hooked up with Buzzi and the plan always was copy what he did and do it better and cheaper.

That lead to me bringing Cummins (Jim Shipp and Irv French) to Super Hero and later to Andrea Bonomi for wrote the checks for Seatek. There was to be a deal where we (SH/Cummins) would make a line of smaller diesels to market as "Seatek".

Buzzi opposed that 100% because that would end his gravy train, why do you need Buzzi, he brings nothing to the table engineering wise for engines- don't get me wrong Buzzi is very smart and great at overall package of boat, drives, engines - love him to death.

He on the other hand hated me and did everything to kill what we wanted to do - for obvious reasons.

The rest as you is history, Seatek never became the world leader, racing orgs did everything to stop diesels in generals including the race people and CG here in the US. The technology just floundered and Buzzi for all his bit**ing and moaning came full circle and went Cummins - go figure!

Fabio, here in the US I feel was never given enough credit, people hated him because he understood the rules and worked around them to his advantage - bravo!!! I was not smart enough to do that or well financed enough.

Our purpose was never to build a winning race program, it's very easy to do that - just throw money at it you see it here everyday!

Our goal was to build a replacement product to gas engines in the performance boat market and be able to make money at it - again as is stated on this site 100 times - any idiot can loose money in the marine business.

We had Navistar supporting us and later Cummins.

The problems that existed 25 years ago still are the same problems that exist today, the technology is there you just have to apply it different and think as they say "outside the box". The other problem is expectations - diesel boats can run with gas boats everyday of the week when your really in the ocean running and racing.

A diesel will never keep up with the gas boats on these go-kart style race course and the ridulous shoot-out things they have now. Diesel is long distance and longevity, take those away and there is no purpose to have a diesel - is there?

Hmmmmm my knowledge of diesels is laughable........ Wonder why people pay the $150 an hour plus per travel & per diem to come work on their engines and my schedule is booked solid for the next 60 days.

" A diesel will never keep up with the gas boats on these go-kart style race course and the ridulous shoot-out things they have now. Diesel is long distance and longevity, take those away and there is no purpose to have a diesel - is there? "

Joe,

I have to disagree. In 1998,99,00 we ran 3 speed and 4 speed semiautomatic transmissions and Seateks in class 1 and won 2 World Championships 99,00 with Victoryteam. We won the pole position championship all three years. The only reason we stopped is because they banned multispeeds in Class 1.

Here is a video of a boat (avr) we are running with 6 speeds and ls7 smallbocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DINWsjuh-ys

This boat was a light weight efficient gas engine study. There are more videos but that one is my favorite. Look under weismannmarine.

We will do the Diesel now. My problem has been what engine.

The dmax/cummins/fpt/deere/yanmar/international/vw are all good engines. Working with the factory is the problem. Most companies do not want to allow acces to their ecu. With the LS7 we had easy access. Mefi 4.

With Banks we did a dmax race truck (see videos) with a 6 speed and a stock ecu. No access to bosch but we made it work. It worked well but he got interested in drag racing and dumped the racetruck. Access would make it quicker reacting. We had can bus access on a smart diesel and it was magic.

It is all coming. It just takes time and $.

pat W

Pat

The UIM racing you did, I think, not sure was still more long distance than what they do here today. I agree and like I said, if you throw enough money at it you can do anything.

How much does your 6 speed or 4 speed auto trans cost for the diesel boat and how much does a crash box for a gas engine cost?

My comments about distance and longevity - simple Fabio Buzzi racing lesson 101, get in front and stay in front make people chase you, to catch you they need to run harder than you - they will break! That does go back to old school when you raced for 150 miles or so - I think if that racing was done today with the advances in technology in both gas and diesel the diesel advantage may not be so great????

I'm digressing but what made the old diesel boats like Buzzi great was no electronics what so ever, once they started you can't turn them off. Solenoids were used to shut off the fuel not open it. I remember one race we lost all the batteries literally they were flying around in the bilge, no trim tabs, nothing electric worked but the boat ran!!!!

Today with diesels, even my pickup truck there have been zero engine (actual iron) problems compared to electric problems that cause it to run bad, hell injectors are now controlled with elctronics, the old race engines - Boosch pump and pop-it injectors.

Longevity - I read how long some of the gas engines on here are lasting, you remember as do I when gas engines needed to be rebuilt every single race! I see a few diesel Nortechs for sale with newer engines, I see Don Smiths for sale with newer engines - they can't possibly have put enough hours on them to wear them out so why are they changed????

Unless the diesel can last long enough, to burn that much less fuel compared to a gas engine today to offset the price - it's useless.

I see all the cool stuff you build, very cool - but in the US boat market there is one thing and one thing only that will make a diesel successful and this was told to me by Craig Barrie, who I respect because for one, he always told it to us as blunt as he could. It was "you need to hook up to the black drive, until you can do that and achieve the same speeds your dead in the water!" that was 1985 - has it changed - NO!!!!

An in-line six although better than a V-8 when you attach your multispeed trans on the back, will not fit into 90% of the engines rooms so boat manufacturers or owners would have to modify things like crazy to make it fit - that kills the whole project!!!

The V-8 diesels are toys compared to the 6's simple, the 6's were designed to run over 15,000 hours without being taken apart - the V-8's were designed to run 7,500 hours. They were made to go into light duty trucks and the 6's go in little dozers, back hoes, med trucks etc, etc - this is what aggravates me when this whole V-8 subject comes up - yes the concept is better, the application is better suited but the base product is designed to be something less to start with.

As far as engines go, I assume your talking racing?

I would think a company such as yours would focus on how to take existing engines and make them work behind the black drive and get yourself into a market that at least has bigger unit numbers associated with it?

I like the Cummins from a parts and service standpoint in the US, I still don't know what they ahve over seas unless the FPT relationship allows for serviceing of the Cummins tagged product????? The John Deere's the small units are made in Europe, I have some, try to get parts - they stink. Duramax or International, doesn't matter, where do you get parts and there are no base marine engines, your dead in the water. Yanmar, see lots of them, hear both good and bad, assume there is a good source of parts globally - makes them right there with Cummins? Cat is out right too heavy, but their small engines are all Perkins now, aren't they so maybe good for Europe?

Pat, I would try to build the gear box that goes between the diesel and any of the bravo generation of drives and maybe you need a standoff box with that so you get more room in the boat and set the box into that or build the gear box into the stand-off box????

You have the technology, you don't need reverse it's in the drive already, you just need 3 speeds at most, a direct for around the dock and you need to get up to 5,500 -6,000 rpm's of input speed into the drive and your equal to a gas engine.

I'd spend my money and time not trying to re-invent the wheel and make an engine that appeals to a small market, has no warranty other than from yourself and has no parts when it does break - make the in-between peice, you can make money with that!

If you ever wnated to talk email me and we'll have a call [email protected].

ps, Pat just my take on the world cool like the Banks truck is nice but can't keep the doors open - you my freind have the tools & brains to pick-up where we left off. You do what I told you and you will see your brand in more boats than you can imagine especially with today's economy!

Pat, your boxes are mostly single countershaft designs - correct?

Do you do the planets?

We used multi-countershafts in our OD boxes for gen sets to China. Much smaller gears and the counters incased / stabilized the mainshaft better - Look at the old Mack 5 speeds trans???

Pat, I would try to build the gear box that goes between the diesel and any of the bravo generation of drives and maybe you need a standoff box with that so you get more room in the boat and set the box into that or build the gear box into the stand-off box????

You have the technology, you don't need reverse it's in the drive already, you just need 3 speeds at most, a direct for around the dock and you need to get up to 5,500 -6,000 rpm's of input speed into the drive and your equal to a gas engine.

Joe there you have a few very good idears ,the stand off box is a must I convert my 32 hustler to diesel wich have a big engine room but (the litle qsdcummins) fit exactly in the room straight on the bravo .

I would love to try a 3 speed gearbox to see what happend .

A.j. a friend of mine convert a 40 outlaw whit 2 yanmar 440 and 2 speed zf gearboxes wich have nearly 2 " room in front of the engines ,and that is a triple engine room !

I agrea that it can be a hole in the market specialy here in europe whit the crazy gas prices .

Bor,

Thank you, see I'm not as crazy as people think!

Joe,

you don't have to thank me ,it's simply the reality only people don't want to see diesels go fast boats just as it where in cars only when the common rail came in the gas engine got some serious competition !

I only done 15hrs whit the hustler here but if people see it going they come and look what engines it got to go so fast (there are not alot of fast boats here ) and they see it has diesels they are very suprised !