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BIG Time motor problem ...any ideas ?????

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Old 07-29-2009, 11:55 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by RunninHotRacing158 View Post
Thanks UD If the BIG CHIEF were the problem or weak link they should of been changed along with the build instead of saying we do a special stage 3 port job and make huge flow #s and with regular valve train checking & adjusting rockers BIG CHIEF are the chit ..... come to find out the heads were re-flowed here locally and #s do not match the flow chart that was faxed for the stage #3 port job .... and seems the BSFC #s were not done on the dyno even though i specifically asked for them ...

Story is getting worse as you reveal more details......Im really bummed for you you deserved better.

let me clarify my big chief statement- They are AWESOME and produce awesome flow #'s but a price most people just cant pay.

Not so much the purchase price - but the ongoing price of keeping them running.

You just should have been told that you'd have to keep putting time and money into reworks around 50 hours or so- but you didnt even get that.

Keep us posted- and someones suggestion of a "vicoden grey goose combo" was a good idea.

UD.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by StraightJacket View Post
Go see Dave W, he is a good ole boy and stands behind his work. He tells you what you need and thats it, he does the whole job and thats why he stands behind it. If I where going with Blowers or some trick combo he would be the one I chose.
I AGREE 100%.......I assume you are speaking of Dave Wesseldyk of WESCO.

Got to do a plug for Dave Wesseldyk...

Dave is incredibly talented and innovative...I would put him up against any well known top engine builder in the country---including Sterling....he can/will do just as good of a job or better and for LESS $$$.

Dave has a website for his business, but other than that he does not adverstise...he really does not need to. He is a low profile guy and all of his business is by word of mouth...you got to have a lot of happy customers to get that kind of reputation. Engines continue to trickle into his shop from various areas of the country....especially the midwest.

99.9% of the engines he builds are for hi-perf marine use and he is always busy in his shop 7 days per week....always fixing/correcting someone elses screw up. I truely believe he is the real deal in the way he builds his engines and how he runs and conducts his business.

WESCO 616-662-2250

www.wescoracingengines.com
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:04 PM
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Story is getting worse as you reveal more details......Im really bummed for you you deserved better.

let me clarify my big chief statement- They are AWESOME and produce awesome flow #'s but a price most people just cant pay.

Not so much the purchase price - but the ongoing price of keeping them running.

You just should have been told that you'd have to keep putting time and money into reworks around 50 hours or so- but you didnt even get that.

Keep us posted- and someones suggestion of a "vicoden grey goose combo" was a good idea.

UD.
Thanks UD the only thing i was told about the BIG CHIEF was that if they put a cam in bigger then 711 lift the motors would need new valve springs every 30 hours so i opted to do the 711 cam and not have a over 7000 rpm motor


Sounds like they make good boat anchors
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RunninHotRacing158 View Post
Thanks UD the only thing i was told about the BIG CHIEF was that if they put a cam in bigger then 711 lift the motors would need new valve springs every 30 hours so i opted to do the 711 cam and not have a over 7000 rpm motor


Sounds like they make good boat anchors
How Much HP were they supposed to be???
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:32 PM
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The big chiefs make power but have severe valve angles with long/thin valve stems so they wear the guides quicker than most heads.... I think the 50 hr assessment is pretty accurate from what I've expienced with my buddies old big chief headed engines. They made power but you were always on top of it.

I think Eddie made a great suggestion... scrap the 16:71 and load a 5.0 whipple on there with some different heads (maybe AFR's???) Less heat and more power with some more reliability...

One ting I always say to myself; Big HP engines are like trying to suck a milkshake thru a small staw and they give a lot of headaches... Small problems become big ones in a hurry but it kinda goes along with the program. If a guy tells me I can get 200 hrs, I usually cut that in half and be happy if I made it that far. Any more than half of expected life seems like a bonus!
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by skater40 View Post
Well bill if you really want to hear it-i suggest you go get a couple of vicodin and a bottle of grey goose.
These motors were dynoed on a 50-50 mix of water and methanol.I have read the feb 27 email the engine builder (Larry)sent you and it specifally said you were responsible to run the correct mixture and to turn on the switch which you were responsible to program to turm on at 6 psi of boost.
The part you left of in your post is that you admitted to screwing up to several people and trying to save the meth (with no water mixed in)so you could run another skater at the kentucky poker run.You did 3 things wrong-#1 you forgot that cruising at 90 with 6 people and a full load of pump gas,even if you say it was 5 psi will spike up to as much as 10 psi when you make slight turns .Remember i had the exact same bottom on the old predator and the boat is stuck in the water ploying and loading the motors at 90-it doesnt break loose till 100 mph.#2-you were conserving your methanol and did not turn the switch on.#3 straight methanol will lean out the motor (especially when it was tuned on a 50-50 mix of water) and raise the exhaust temps.
The heads left larrys shop at 98 cc which coupled with the 40 cc dished pistons and the thickness ot the head gaskets gave it a 8.8 compression.The detonation that happened to your pistons also hurt the heads.The shop you sent them to welded them up then milled them 18 thousands-they just were not instructed by you to open up the chambers-which you can still do.The heads now are at 95 cc.
Never ever did larry ever talk to you about providing you free parts.On july 24 when they called you about paying the bill,your excuse was that your wife was out of town and would handel it when she gets back-no surprise out of your lips-just excuses.
You have had i shop hone the block,another fix the heads,another do the assembly and another order the parts.
You are right about one thing thou-your boating season is over and you are soley at fault.
Cool let me address these 1 at a time BIG Daddy

These motors were dynoed on a 50-50 mix of water and methanol.I have read the feb 27 email the engine builder (Larry)sent you and it specifally said you were responsible to run the correct mixture and to turn on the switch which you were responsible to program to turm on at 6 psi of boost.

1) E-mails exist stating to turn the timing to 32 degrees from 34 degrees when the motors were received.

2) E-mails now exist that state turn the timing back to “27 degrees and let’r rip”

3) NO reference to fuel curve- like stay away from certain rpm values- or turn the Alky on at 4 psi…

4) What does 6psi have to do with anything?? It was below the switch point. What you are trying to do is stating the rocket blew up in space when it actually blew just after lift off.
NOTE: The mix was 50/50 during the run & 25% of 110 Octane fuel in the fuel tanks

The part you left of in your post is that you admitted to screwing up to several people and trying to save the meth (with no water mixed in)so you could run another skater at the kentucky poker run.

1) Saving meth…… Means not running hard enough to turn the system on. It does not mean change the parameters. The boosts was not sufficient to turn the alky on. That is saving meth.

2) It also says that something was not right – timing or fuel- that a boat like this can not cruise at 80-90mph without melting down a motor.

HOW MANY GUYS OUT THERE WITH SKATERS, MTI’S, ELIMINATORS ETC… SAY THEY CAN’T CRUISE AT 80-90 BECAUSE THEY WILL MELT DOWN A MOTOR.

You did 3 things wrong-
1) you forgot that cruising at 90 with 6 people and a full load of pump gas,even if you say it was 5 psi will spike up to as much as 10 psi when you make slight turns .Remember i had the exact same bottom on the old predator and the boat is stuck in the water ploying and loading the motors at 90-it doesnt break loose till 100 mph.

. I would lean towards the higher compression problem and running the engine at 4000 rpm for an extended period of time. That is the lean spot for me also as it just before the meth comes on. The engines have no load cruising at 90 mph as I am running less than 1/2 throttle causing the engines to go lean as the hull is aired out.

1) This is a counterdicting statement- I would agree with the second statement is the event that occurred with your boat. It leaned at part throttle.

2) It was a straight line with no sharp turns for “spiked boost”.

3) For the amount of money spent and the extended dyno time (your motors became test mules for 20+ pulls)- the mid range light throttle condition should have been addressed since it was below the alky point. The fuel curve should be correct without the alky- alky is not a band aid.

#2-you were conserving your methanol and did not turn the switch on.

1) The Alky is not in place to conserve fuel. Again the fuel curve of the carburetor should be correct. Do you avoid certain speeds in your car because it does not run??

a. The alky/water (or singularly- I run water through 10psi then alky) is in place to allow higher boost/hp values to exist. It will allow you to raise the effective compression ratio and the fuels resistance to detonation.

b. Why run alky/water unless you want to raise hp values. Otherwise turn it off, turn down the boost/timing and run 93 octane.

2) Don’t forget this thing ran for 300+ hours- including one season on Alky and water – without melting down.

a. The fuel curve was changed- both jets and air bleeds.

b. The heads have higher flow- which usually means fuel is needed.

c. The cam was (by memory recall not 100% positive) retarded by 2 degrees from its original setting.

#3 straight methanol will lean out the motor (especially when it was tuned on a 50-50 mix of water) and raise the exhaust temps.

1) The meth was not running/activated at the time period the motors failed. This is an irrelevant fact at this exact time.

a. Addressing the statement- yes it will lean the mixture. Alky has less btu than gas. Again –the fuel curve must be correct before the alky system is added.

b. By leaning the mixture to compensate for the alky- well the mixture was leaned- self supporting statement.

c. Previously noted changes had an impact on the fuel curve.

4) The heads left larrys shop at 98 cc which coupled with the 40 cc dished pistons and the thickness ot the head gaskets gave it a 8.8 compression.The detonation that happened to your pistons also hurt the heads.The shop you sent them to welded them up then milled them 18 thousands-they just were not instructed by you to open up the chambers-which you can still do.The heads now are at 95 cc.

And the point is???

This has no bearing on anything no impact on the motor failure.

Is this person running Big Chiefs or standard style combustion chambers?
Cyl Bore
4.562
3.1415927
2
2.281
5.202961
gasket bore
4.58
Area bore
16.345584
0.06102
inch to cc conversion
Area gasket
16.474826
98
head cc
0.051
0.8336248
13.661501
head gasket
0.005
0.0823741
1.349953
Piston in/above deck
40
piston cc
153.01145
total cc of head area
Total cu in
4.5
73.555128
1358.438
Stroke cc
588.44103
Final Compression Ratio
8.8780152

Cyl Bore
4.562
3.14
2
2.281
5.202961
gasket bore
4.58
Area bore
16.337298
0.06102
inch to cc conversion
Area gasket
16.466474
98
head cc
0.033
0.5391308
8.8353133
head gasket
0.005
0.0823324
1.3492686
Piston in/above deck
40
piston cc
148.18458
total cc of head area
Total cu in
4.5
73.517839
1353
Stroke cc
588.14271
Final Compression Ratio
9.1305048
The above is a compression calculation:

I shifted the gasket by .018” as noted. The compression changed by .26. The cc. of the system changed by 4.8 – at the gasket which is a worst case scenario since it is assuming a cylinder. The head is not a cylinder- the actual change is considerably less. Yes – if you want to know I could calculate the change based on an average curve applied to the head.


Proof is in the results…. GARY SMITH I will place a wager that the RHR boat will be able cruise at 80-90mph not burn down and still make the 160mph+ mark… Will you take the wager??



Perhaps- my original expenditure??



In the end that is what we are talking about here- Work. Money. Results.



It will be the world’s fastest canoe- if you catch my drift…

Last edited by RunninHotRacing163.1; 07-29-2009 at 01:12 PM. Reason: pic download
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:35 PM
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NOTE- the head guy took off .012” off of one head and .008” off of the other. They were not welded. Careful about your information.

The heads were air flowed by the current head guy- and do not match the flow numbers provided by the builder.
In the end-

1) This project started with the explicit request to put everything in writing. Work to be done, prices etc…

a. For some reason this was avoided like the plague.

b. The last sheet supplied which projected work and pricing- was only 50% of the final bill.

2) This motor build was totally the decision of the motor builder.

a. Input was supplied concerning the Alky- but if the builder/tuner was not familiar with the systems and results- ask the questions!

b. The supplier of the Alky system was not asked for tuning input.

c. Obviously some questions existed or else the motor would not have gone through 20+ pulls. Timing (up to 34deg), alky alone, with water, fuel curves….

3) No matter what- I went with all LARRYS ENGINE & MARINE motor ideas & build specs and ending up with .....

a. To have a motor/boat that can not cruise at 90mph.

b. Would melt down in 3hrs.

4) It appears the dyno pulls were for peak hp only.

a. There is a whole lot more to a fuel curve than WOT

5) Carb work- The carbs was “freshened”.

a. The motors would not idle at anything under 1500 rpm when returned.

b. The floats were way out of adjustment when returned- 3 out of 4 were flooding the system.

c. The 4-corner idle circuitry was set at anywhere from turn to 4 turns- on the same carb. But every carb was all over the map.

While this is neither here nor there- it is detail. Service was paid for. The outcome was certainly not as expected.

I never claimed to be a motor “expert”. A considerable sum was paid for a service-

If the sum paid and the end results are what the average boater would expect than this response is worthless.

IF the sum paid should result in a boat that can cruise at 80-90mph (not even talking about top end stuff) and the motors should last more than 3hrs well- buyer beware.

I could not have this kind of result in my business.

Never ever did larry ever talk to you about providing you free parts.

Never?? Never?? Where you there listening? Tape recorded. He said she said.

I believe your emotion is involved- stay with the facts as known.
An implied contract definitely exist- especially with the sums represented.

A dyno is used because….. To test hp and to make sure everything is functioning properly.

Do e-mails exist that note turning back the timing – yes.

Do e-mails exist that state to avoid certain loads or rpm levels – no. Boost values and alky are totally separate issues.

Was the motor tune done by the builder- yes.

Did the builder tell the owner not to touch the tune but to run the boat – yes.

On july 24 when they called you about paying the bill,your excuse was that your wife was out of town and would handel it when she gets back-no surprise out of your lips-just excuses.

Stick to the facts –not personal attacks.

You have had i shop hone the block,another fix the heads,another do the assembly and another order the parts.

What is your point here???

Many shops will use more than one resource. Your statement is like asking the builder if he forged and machined the rods. No bearing on the matter.

You are right about one thing thou-
my boating season is over
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:45 PM
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Do not assume the smaller jets are the issue. You are using methanol injection which requires smaller jets. I had to go down 10 jet sizes to get the EGT and O2 even close to normal when the meth kicked in. I also run 32 degrees timing and also have a 16:71 blower. I would lean towards the higher compression problem and running the engine at 4000 rpm for an extended period of time. That is the lean spot for me also as it just before the meth comes on. The engines have no load cruising at 90 mph as I am running less than 1/2 throttle causing the engines to go lean as the hull is aired out. I tend to up and down in speed rather than stay at one constant lean spot. I am really sorry to hear of your boat issues this year.

stay at one constant lean spot

1) Tuning.

2) Tuning.

3) Tuning.

may want to put that Bad dawg back on the dyno at your Bro @ATECO shoppe have'nt seen any Mercury 1200s with CAUTION labels that say dont run at 4000 rpm move them sticks around a bit for longer engine life
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:49 PM
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One question. Was the milling and repairing of the heads done before the engine build, before the engines melted down or after they melted?

If the heads were repaired, what happened between the original builds and then?

If the engines melted before the repairs to the heads, the repair argument is not relevant?
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:01 PM
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One question. Was the milling and repairing of the heads done before the engine build, before the engines melted down or after they melted?

If the heads were repaired, what happened between the original builds and then?

If the engines melted before the repairs to the heads, the repair argument is not relevant?





Panther the repair to heads was done after the meltdown and was needed to clean-up the chambers and NO WELDING OR MILLING was done would of had no reason to work on heads only had 3 hours before they were torched

Makes no sense to open up the chambers and put a .078 head gasket and BAND-AIDE a too high compression problem that was there from day 1
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BIG Time motor problem ...any ideas  ?????-pix-075.jpg   BIG Time motor problem ...any ideas  ?????-pix-074.jpg   BIG Time motor problem ...any ideas  ?????-pix-073.jpg  

BIG Time motor problem ...any ideas  ?????-pix-071.jpg   BIG Time motor problem ...any ideas  ?????-pix-070.jpg  

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