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Supercharged Ilmors

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Old 03-12-2010, 01:01 AM
  #31
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I think that Mario Illien in a genius.
In both the mechanical and buisness sense.

Chris
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:02 AM
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Wink Its Only Gotta work! ???

The writing is on the wall here gentleman!
Read the writing!

There is no current supercharged engine that meets the new 2011 EPA and EU emission standards, PERIOD!

No manufacturer is going to be building supercharged engines that don't meet the new standards, they can't because they won't get certified. Marine Performance Supercharging has a fuel delivery characteristic that when made to work in boat performance engine high horsepower loadings cannot currently or in the near future meet the new emission standards. I think this might have been some of the reason Mercury and most automotive high performance engine builders have moved to turbocharging, don't you??

There are new offerings like Merc's new 1300 and Ilmors 725 engines that do, but that's it and believe me when I say its doubtful any major players are going to step up to the huge expense of this type of development now or in the near future.

There is always room for aftermarket upgrades in supercharging on existing boat engines for current engines but Paul Ray is correct when he says you are not going to successfully supercharge and existing marine performance engine with 10.3 to one compression with any moderate boost and have a reliable engine.

There will always be guys who want to try and succeed at grenading their nice marine performance engines and they will be on the forums crying the blues days after the event, wondering what went wrong and why didn't it work??

Want to supercharge an Ilmore V-10 engine, just tear it down, have new custom pistons and rings made, install new Inconel exhaust valves, change the camshaft, spend a minimum of $500,000 developing a new supercharger with all acessoires and engineer it to fit, modify the fuel injection system and pay for a develop complete new programming for the ECM and whola! you've got a new Ilmore/Custom supercharged marine engine with HP and torque numbers that the original engine block was not designed for!

Sounds simple and affordable does it not!?

Will someone out there please get started , I can tell there are hundreds of wealthy Ilmore engine owners chomping at the bit!

If the future of this industry is to survive and grow we really need to be spending our time talking and working on more pressing and important issues. Just my tow cents that seem to be worth a little more everyday.

Thanks for your attention.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:14 AM
  #33
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Ok but what about Turbo Charged & Emission compliant?
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:29 AM
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Another issue here that has not been discussed is the drives being used with the 625s. The Teague Platinum XR drives are being used at the upper end of their performance capabilities. Believe me, reliability should be at the top of the list for a pleasure boat. I have been there. The Ilmor motors are VERY reliable. If the horsepower is increased with the 625s, then you better upgrade the drives........... which brings on another problem and expense. I also have talked to Paul Rey about supercharging the Ilmors and he told me the same thing as the other comments here.

I am running the Ilmor 7-10s with #6 drives in a 9,000 lb. boat.

Don't worry, be happy.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:26 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylar View Post
There is no current supercharged engine that meets the new 2011 EPA and EU emission standards, PERIOD!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Ray,

Teague's new 800 supercharged motor was on Dustin's dyno all last week (with cats and mufflers in place), and it will meet and exceed the 2011 EPA and EU emissions standards in its new form.

Don't sell supercharging short just yet.

Chris
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:49 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylar View Post
The writing is on the wall here gentleman!
Read the writing!

There is no current supercharged engine that meets the new 2011 EPA and EU emission standards, PERIOD!

No manufacturer is going to be building supercharged engines that don't meet the new standards, they can't because they won't get certified. Marine Performance Supercharging has a fuel delivery characteristic that when made to work in boat performance engine high horsepower loadings cannot currently or in the near future meet the new emission standards. I think this might have been some of the reason Mercury and most automotive high performance engine builders have moved to turbocharging, don't you??

There are new offerings like Merc's new 1300 and Ilmors 725 engines that do, but that's it and believe me when I say its doubtful any major players are going to step up to the huge expense of this type of development now or in the near future.

There is always room for aftermarket upgrades in supercharging on existing boat engines for current engines but Paul Ray is correct when he says you are not going to successfully supercharge and existing marine performance engine with 10.3 to one compression with any moderate boost and have a reliable engine.

There will always be guys who want to try and succeed at grenading their nice marine performance engines and they will be on the forums crying the blues days after the event, wondering what went wrong and why didn't it work??

Want to supercharge an Ilmore V-10 engine, just tear it down, have new custom pistons and rings made, install new Inconel exhaust valves, change the camshaft, spend a minimum of $500,000 developing a new supercharger with all acessoires and engineer it to fit, modify the fuel injection system and pay for a develop complete new programming for the ECM and whola! you've got a new Ilmore/Custom supercharged marine engine with HP and torque numbers that the original engine block was not designed for!

Sounds simple and affordable does it not!?

Will someone out there please get started , I can tell there are hundreds of wealthy Ilmore engine owners chomping at the bit!

If the future of this industry is to survive and grow we really need to be spending our time talking and working on more pressing and important issues. Just my tow cents that seem to be worth a little more everyday.

Thanks for your attention.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Ray,

Actually I know of 1 OEM and 1 High performance engine builder that are currently meeting 2011 EPA, CARB and EU standards at 1000hp supercharged and within a month, will have emissions certification pending approval. We've done lots of testing here at our facility in the past few months with excellent results. The standards set forth are certainly attainable with current exsisting parts and the future will certainly be attainable as well. We, as well as Ford, GM... pass ZERO emission (PZLEV) vehicles with superchargers. The fact is turbo's actually create more problems on the emissions side because the cat light off time is nearly 50 times more than a NA or SC'd engine. Making cold start turbo applications some of the worse polluters. Ford has gone as far as injecting amonia into the cat to get it lit off sooner.

For emissions testing, you must run under multiple load points, and it doesn't matter if you have a roots, turbo or screw sc, if your in a high load area, you'll be in boost. The only difference is the turbo will either have more power at that given point, or will have a lower BSFC at the identical point. And at 1000hp, the differences are very insignificant.

To supercharge an older V10, you'll need to get Sonny Bryant to make a new crank shaft. While it lives in the auto world with aftermarket SC's, the standard crankshaft in the early version was not designed for increased cylinder pressures of forced induction. Auto apps get away with it because they can't maintain a significant load. If Ilmor states that its not a good idea, there's a good reason.

Thanks,
Dustin Whipple
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:48 PM
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Dustin, your posts have to be the most informative on here. You are the man...........
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:54 AM
  #38
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Dustin,

My point exactly: Ilmor doesn't recommend it.

To find this out, because I think it's an interesting discussion, I went directly to Paul Ray, the president of Ilmor. Now, I understand that Mr. Ray has proprietary information to protect, but there was absolutely no reason for him to be less-than-honest here. So I would take him at his word.

Worth noting: If you read Ray's quote, he said "Ilmor engines." He did not designate any particular model as better-suited to supercharging than another.

CB-CLR: You are of course correct in that Ilmor has worked with forced-air induction on the marine side. However, you would be incorrect if you expect to see anything from Ilmor trying to chase Mercury Racing's 1300/1350 anytime soon.

According to Ray, who once again I have no reason to doubt, the current economy and the cost of development are prohibitive for Ilmor to take on such a project at this time.
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:32 AM
  #39
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Talking Oh BOY!

I stand corrected Dustin. I hope there will be many marine high horsepower engines that meet the new 2011-2012 emmissions requirements, especially when they get done with those crazy certification labs!
This performance marine industry depends on the technolgy of the various manufactures to get the performance boating community into compliance with these overbearing and ridiculous requirements for emmissions.
Can you say "JOB CREATION, PROTECTION and FEES at the regulatory level!! We all know how the MILLIONS of performance boats pollute this planet and contribute to "Global Warming!"

Normally aspirated, supercharged, turbo charged, whatever, BRING IT ON!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:36 AM
  #40
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It is time for a rebuild. One of the motors let loose at the end of last year. So I would have to build one and freshen the other. I want more power and speed so I am investigating what is out there.

Jonathan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Dave View Post
Is your 625 ready for a rebuild or do you just want more power. If it isnt rebuild time why f with it?


All due respect to the auto guys using this base block to build huge power in an auto app - I wouldn't try to duplicate these techniques in a marine app the duty cycles is vastly different. I would consider headwork and an cam ecu change but not forced induction without serious testing and then I would only do a mild bump say 10 ponies or so.

(ilmors are supposed to last huge hours with some guy claiming 600+ now with only fluid changes)

What was the delta ilmor quoted you?

Uncle Dave
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