I could not find anything today with a APBA record for this type of class....

With all the differant types of APBA Offshore records I would have thought there would be a Offshore single engine, gas, prop record.

Smitty...something to think about maybe....
and if you really want me to give you a headache.....let me say the words "SOLOMONS ISLAND".....

Gordon Mineo had a 25' eliminator (before his 36)with a turbine on it that went well over 110 but I have no idea where that boat is nowadays

The ski race boats are all prop driven.
We owned a 21' deep v everingham v drive. Twin turbo 510 merlin engine.
In testing and tuning i remember we hit 130mph with ease (i was starting to have trouble holding the laptop cause i was sitting backwards and the acceleration was just throwing me at the motor.)
That thing could corner as well. 120mph in the sharper 90degree river bends.
I also know the Circuit race guys over here regularly reach 150mph with there blown methanol motors.

Reply:

Well you asked several questions!

The type of power in the 28 Bullet running the 130MPH was blown BBC and it was not dynoed. However, I know the motor was tweaked quite a bit to get the latest top end number of 130 MPH.

NOTE: The 110MPH Bullet and the 130MPH Bullet are the same boat with just engine changes.

No NOS or other accelerants used when obtaining the 130MPH speed. I know this was the speed obtained as I viewed the GPS speedo and screen post run.

The boat was not entered in the Salton Sea kilo run as the brine in that pond is absolute destruction on NON-CLOSED cooled motors and everything else susceptible to corrosion.

To set-up a kilo run is a very difficult and expensive proposition usually reserved for companies with big money who want to claim a certain title. Howard does not need to set-up a kilo run as I previously mentioned there are at least three Howard Bullets that I know of which will run 115MPH, plus, plus, and one that could probably hit about 135MPH.

Keep in mind the boats I mention are all pleasure boats versus other boats which are race boats or de facto race boats.

I will try and find the photo of the speedo with 130MPH it has been over a year since I last looked at it.

KAP

Here is the video of the boat you asked about.

Absolutely hella fast and stable!

[GOOGLEVIDEO]<embed id=VideoPlayback src=http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-1439207833157380574&hl=en&fs=true style=width:400px;height:326px allowFullScreen=true allowScriptAccess=always type=application/x-shockwave-flash> </embed>[/GOOGLEVIDEO]

Lake Havasu, Arizona sticky and flat and on the rev limiter 130.3 MPH.

KAP

Thanks for the info....I found that video yesterday when looking for record runs....fast boat...

Most Vee bottoms that were mention are pleasure boats...
The single engine race boats are either spec class which is a 525 class and P-Class with are pleasure boats with 450 to 650hp....so none of these boats would run in the 115+ range....
I'm well aware of the cost for a kilo run....and what it intails....

What I find amazing is the numbers being run in a single engine boat compared to 40' twin engine race boats that are fully enclosed...

I think Instigator ran 127 in the Kilo 2 weeks ago in Sarasota....and yet there is a 28 single engine boat out there running 130 in a pleasure boat....

I wounder if they would open a class for a single engine, stern drive, gas prop boat......I would think that would be a good class for a kilo run and would draw many more boats...

I have been 117 with my 32 without my "Little" pulley on top!!!:party-smiley-004:My boat could handle 125 plus if i want to.:lolhit:

Gino have you seen these records

http://www.starsrescue.com/images/20...nooga_Mile.pdf

So what you're saying is that the Allisons don't exist?

Allisons have been blowing the doors off of vee bottom and older monohull speed records since the 50's........ and the Allison pad bottom vee design is still the fastest thing out there......and it has no steps . Reggie got his pad from Allison, Steve Stepp did and so did we... (Challenger/Shadow). Sure all of us have modified the concept to fit the parameters of the larger hulls, but the first builder to mass produce the concept was Paul Alllison in 1965.

Technically a K Boat is considered a "flat bottom"... but I agree, even those with slight semi vees could be considered a vee of some sort , and they have gone well over 150 in record attempts. This would then open the discussion up to how fast has a 10 degree vee gone?...a 15 degree vee?...a 20 degree...etc. Also can a flat pad on an Allison or Velocity be considered a "flat bottom"? The APBA always stated that aside from a concave surface (tunnel hull or "tunneled strakes or pads") any monohull with 0+ degrees of deadrise and no air entrapment devices was allowed to compete with any other monohull of 0+ degrees of deadrise and no air entrapment devices. That standard still makes sense and effectively eliminates Ocke Mannefeldt from putting airplane wings on a lawn dart and calling it a vee bottom.

Yeap I seen them....whats crazy is the SCL only ran 128 and the SC ran 133....and these are 38 to 40' cats enclosed....

But yet a 28' vee bottom runs 130 and these Allisons are running over that...

It makes Reggies run of what 174 not that impressive when a ski boat is running 140 and pulling skiers around at 120+...

there is a big jump in hp required to go from 140 to 174. as speed increases everything else increases squared...or something like that. been awhile since high school physics class. i still think 174 is quite impressive

Don't get me wrong...174 is fast...and impressive....but 140+ in a single engine vee bottom boat is fast....like I said, that is faster then some SC's in a fully enclosed cockpit and a cat...which is much easier to controll than a vee bottom....

But from 100mph to 140+ is also a big jump...

On the Howard web site is says...there 28 with a 525 dose 80 -83 mph..
Which is in line with most 26 to 30' singles with a 525...
but with 1100+ it dose 130+..thats a big jump there in speed...

agreed, when i grow up i am going to get a howard boat...

Comment:

I did not mention Allisons you did!

Second, the length of boat I am refering to... is in the category of 30ft to 25ft. If you want to illustrate a particular boat please do so rather than taking a snippet of my post and taking it out of context:).

Oh, I have a Howard Deckboat that does 118 to 121MPH seems the Howard lineage...is hella fast----single engine too mind you:drink:.

Your post above is in the right realm once you get to a certain peak speed the amount of horsepower relative to increase in top speed falls off dramatically. In plain terms you hit a wall for that hull/platform no matter how much HP you throw at it.

KAP
P.S. Panicrev---That very same 130MPH boat is currently for sale...PM me if you are interested it owned by a guy named Tom W. and you could eat out of the bilge it is that immaculate.

Actually, I mentioned Allisons. Question was asked about speed record in single engine V-bottom, and fact is, a recorded verified speed in a single engine V-bottom was set in 1987 by an Allison at 129 mph. (BTW, the record still stands and the XR2002 model that set the record is a pleasure boat. :drink:)

Also, here's your exact quote, so by my take and how I read it, you made an incorrect statement. ;)

Actually I didn't start the Allison conversation.....

You are all over the map here. First it was "under 30 feet" now it's "25 to 30 feet". Please make up your mind.

It appears that all you really want to do is discuss Howard's....basically a generic California design...... and only Howard's that have ridiculous power at that.

Bottom line--- Howard is not the fastest monohull or single engine vee bottom......... Your buddy has a fast boat and that's nice, but as we have pointed out here hundreds of times........ If you put enough horsepower in just aboiut anything....you can go fast, and IMHO...a Howard is just about anything....

Nuff said,

T2x

Reply:
I was not aware of the 23 year old record you speak of but if you say it is a recorded verified speed in a single engine V-Bottom it would be interesting to review the data behind the claim.

Can you enlighten us on what sanctioning body recorded this speed, place, body of water etc...length of boat, power, drive type etc...

As for the statement I see your point. At the time it was the fastest V-Bottom ever tested by a certain publication is more accurate.

I stand corrected.

Hello T2x:

I did not mention Allison in anyway yet you subcribe it to me somehow. Quit being a zealot and doing so in such a hasty manner your reading more into it than you should.

I merely stated that there are several 28 Howard Bullets that are capable of reaching 115MPH++. As for generic it would be your reading comprehension rather than your feeble attempt at criticizing a boat builder about whom you know nothing at all.

I never said Howard is the fastest monohull or single engine v-bottom I merely indicated the builder has a stable full of very fast V-Bottoms that consistently put up big numbers for V-Bottoms. If a kilo run was put on I am sure there would be numerous entries provided it was open to all manufacturers.

As for your "we pointed out here" nonsense nothing could be further from the truth each platform has a speed threshold that you cannot push through even if you throw monster power at it. Not to mention certain V-Bottoms couldn't exceed speeds below 100MPH without losing control.

For example, some boats with big HP will chine walk all over the water when pushed to very high speeds and become extremely dangerous...ie falling off of pads and keels to such a degree that loss of control is inevitable. Thus, your statement is meritless, inaccurate and false.

Thus, to say that you could put tremendous HP to any V-Bottom and make it run is absolute rubbish.

Look I think you read more into what I wrote than was present including following up with some type of rant reminescent of Scream & Fly rehetoric.

Let it go and speak to your respective experience---like posting a video/photo/document relevant to this topic.

Respectfully,

KAP

Check page 1 of the thread (even a bit on page 2).

There's even a video. :drink:

20' Allison, XR2002 Model, with carb 2.4 liter bridgeport rated at 245 hp from Mercury. Not sure of all engine mods however no nitrous used.

Waazzuupp Ziemer,
Hell, I feel like I'm back on S&F watching Mercury and Johnrude dudes arguing :grinser010:. Glad I was never in the middle of that sheet........
Actually the old head Merc Jerk (me) was there to see the run. I was there running a N20/2.4 EFI Shadow tunnel vee. My weekend went to sheet. Every time I got on the button, the prop would blow out (really fun at 100 :eek:), the motor would hit the limiter and shut down. So I was a bust. Conversely, Darris and Glen Reynolds really had their boat dialed in. They were running a ModVP legal (no low water pickup) gearcase on 2.4 bridgeport carb with 6 2barrels. It was the old Land and Sea six pack set up. The record was was NOA/ModVP Kilo.
The weather was extraordinarily warm for October (like 80o). I am sure the boat would have run 130+ had it been in the 60s. Glen did a really nice job driving the boat. Not many people could have. Another guy ran 112 with a "stock" 2.4EFI on an Allison XB2002 to set the bass boat record that day.
Shortly thereafter I bought a XB2002 and hung a 2.4EFI on it. If you can't beat them, join them.............
Regards,
Steve

The info you posted seems to be the record that has been offical at 129 mph that is out there.....

That is fast....and its amazing with the new tech that know one has broke it....but even today...that is still crazy speed for a single vee bottom....

It puts in prespective how fast these boats are running....seeing 50' cats with twin turbines hitting 200 over the last 4 years is one thing...and yes ..fast...but seeing these smaller vees running at 130...over 25 years ago....says alot...

it seems that 150 in a single vee bottom is not and stretch....

Steve.....thanks for the info.....

After all you've heard, what size boat are you thinking about doing this in? 30 footer or smaller towards the 18-21footer?

I was hoping we would be able to build a boat for long distance speed runs since that will be our main goal for 2011...I was thinking we might be able to change engines and still be able to attempt to brake a single engine vee Kilo record also with the same boat...

But these little boats seem to be able to run over the 130 to 140 mark if someone wanted to...and I really don't think a single engine offshore boat will be able to do that....

I have inquired for some pricing from a couple of companys to see what we would be looking at in one of these smaller boats but with a capsule...and I will summitt it to see what they think..

On the new boat for long distance runs....we will be going with the ILMOR agian....
We will get a good idea what we will really need and how the boat will need to be built once we run the Activator in a distance run...this will not be a 100 or 200 mile run...the first one will be over 300 miles to see what we will be up against and how much power we will really need....

I have been 113 in a 27 Activator!!!That boat could handle big speeds!!I bet you could get a 27 to go 130 with the right amount of power with the new Imco on the back!:party-smiley-004:

You better duck.....were have you been this year...

It is one of the things we were looking at...
To build a new 27 Activator but move the firewall forward about 15 inches so we could put in the ILMOR 725 and put on the Indy drive...and also put in fuel blatters that we could carrie 150 to 175 gallons for the distance speed runs....and then see what we could do with added HP for the kilo run....
But I think the 140 mark can be hit...but not in a offshore boat....

But this little 27 is in for a bruttle run coming up...as soon as we get here dailed in and the gremlins out....
She will be put to the test....

Which run is that?

I also never said you brought it up...you are still all over the map...and much more of a (Howard) "zealot" than I am. It appears that you never heard of an Allison or a Hydrostream, or a Norris Craft, or a Speedliner, or a Switzer Shooting Star, or any of the numerous other monohulls that have posted amazing speeds in the past.

] You pointedly did say that Howard was the fastest V bottom up until the date of some magazine test. As far as your comments regarding me knowing nothing about Howard hulls. I will gladly trace the derivative line, that Howard is a small part of, for you along the West Coast bulder history clear back to to Rudy Ramos and his Rayson Craft hulls that set the stage for most of the current California builders.


HP makes geniuses out of even mediocre designers and Icons out of the great ones. Excessive hp and a good setup man allows you to increase speed at lower trim settings in less aggressive attack angles wherein you "glue" a hull to the water and use raw power to increase speed. Manufacturers for years have exceeded design speed parameters using this technique. For instance, our Shadow cats were designed for a 115-120 mph maximum speed in 1979, using small block power up to 600 hp each. We really felt that the hull wpuld not be very stable over that speed. Recently, I received correspondence from a guy down south who has run his Shadow well over 160 with a pair of supercharged big blocks.

Vee bottoms have been stabilized for years using combinations of c/g changes, strake mods and bottom tuning, with proper use of trim tabs and setbacks allowing speeds well over Ray Hunt's original 60 mph design. With enough power you can "trim against the tabs" and make a vee hull rock solid at very high speeds. Since all vees have a common ancestary these techniques work to one degree or another on any hull that is constructed basically straightand true coming out of the mold.

The thought that adding HP does not increase speed capabilities, or that there is some form of speed limit by vee hull manufacturer, fails to take into account the impact that ever passing years of development, setup and prop design have on the equation.....and is, in fact, both" absolute rubbish" to use your anglophile term....and naive.

Today there are at least a dozen hull designs that could up the single engine vee record, but my bet would be on a K-Boat.

Not neccessarily respectfully,

T2x

Around Long Island........?

Comment:

I won't comment on the early comments as they merit little discussion and are more bravado than substance. However, the latter part of your post contains some useful information.

The reference to Shadow Cats I assume is to illustrate how you can push the hull limits with proper set-up. I agree remarkable things can happen when you have an outstanding set-up but eventually you will hit a wall wherein despite the best set-up possible the increase in speed will plateau or flat line. I don't care how much HP you put to it.

If you argue this point and we follow your theory simply put a turbine engine in a V-Bottom--- chain someone in the boat [because that is the only way your gonna get someone in the boat] and let it rip down the kilo run.

Just so you don't think I am an anglophile I call bullsh_t on the second theory you espouse...let's see hmmm.... the hull is unstable but we are going to counteract that with tabs which scrub speed and trim up---Ok you go with that.

To stabilize a V-Bottom in a single engine configuration is extremely difficult and your mention of technology is correct up to a point. In the single engine V-Bottom category hitting high numbers 120MPH and above by simply adding power is not the solution [it is if you want to die].

Furthermore since you allege there are a dozen single engine V-Bottom hulls capable of topping the record books can you list them since it is so common place. As for your described band-aid for going fast i.e... "trim against the tabs" that is disaster try it video it for us so we can see how that works for you in attempting to get the best top end number in a single engine V-Bottom.

Note: In my opinon trim tabs are for pulling skiers, making turns you should not be doing [high speed] and running in rough water with a poor set-up or hull...this list is not all inclusive.

Forgive me maybe you know more than I do after 4000 posts you must be an authority herein... so... can you post up some [GPS speedo] or any photos/video of single engine V-Bottoms running 100MPH++ and the relevant data.

I am sure you are a very knowledgeable person I suspect more in the outboard arena given all the manufacturers you listed. Yet with several posts into this discussion you have not put up one exemplar on this subject when in fact as you allude there are hulls aplenty.

In conclusion, I find online bickering lacks substance however in certain instances some amount of jousting is necessary to establish an online order of sorts.

Respectfully,

KAP

Would it help if we clarified if we were referring stricly to sterndrives or any (including the many superfast maufacturers that only use outboards) single engine vee bottom.

I am pretty sure Howards claim states that the 28 Bullet was the fastest single engine sterndrive vee bottom, but not 100% and too lazy to look right now.

We have kept is quite since Dec.....
and we have had it set up the Friday before the Sunny Island race, but we still had problems with the boat...
We were hoping to run it before the Sarasota race but we still don't have the boat right...

It will be the run from Tampa to Miami....320 miles
We have everything in place for the run...
Refueling station, support boats and the C.G

The record as most of you know is 3hrs 47 mins and 30 seconds...by F Buzzi ....

At the attempt we will ask if a single engine gas record can be added for the run....if so...we will set the mark...if not we will still attempt to beat Buzzi's record....

We feel even in a 27 foot boat that record can be beat....
We have a number of other attempts that we have set for 2011....but this is the one we want to take on....

We have talk with ILMOR in lentgh on this attempt and we feel good about the power we have...

We feel with the ILMOR 725 and Indy Drive we would be very comfortably with that run and time and the reliability...
But because of the lack of room the the engine compartment we were unable to put in the tranny...
We will attempt this with a Bravo and a Imco lower for now...but don't know if see will hold together...

We also want Jim to be comfortable in the boat also...its not easy coming from the cats to this little boat...we also have Mark K to jump on the throttles pending on Jim feels in the boat....with some other throttlemen that will jump in if needed....
Safety will come first and were not going to run it unless the boat is right....and we know we can beat the record...were not going out just to say we finish...if we can't put up a repectable time...I would not be taking this project on...

This was not the boat we had scheduled to run in 2010 for these distance runs..but like I posted earlier the boat we wanted was taken off the market......but after getting back into the Activator...I think it can be done....it will be more of a beating...but it can be done...

2005 Howard Bullet SBBC power MMW full billet drive 131 MPH! Tested by Performance Boats.

It seems that in a offshore style boat that is the number in a 25 to 30 foot Vee....
But we don't want to start a class for specific vee's....and have all differant quilifiers.....
Thats why I wanted to see if there was just a single vee kilo record which seems to be the 129 in the Allison...
The problem I'm seeing is we can spend the money to build a 27 vee to hit that....but I think in no time one of these smaller boats will come out and do 140....and were not looking to buy stupid power just to run a kilo....
But the 131 number that you put up is impressive....

Here is a video of a single IO 30' Checkmate running 114 mph. The boat looks very stable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpI6uatTusk

Is anybody skiracing a Howard?
if not it must be because they are slow

Here's a pic of George's X18 at speed and one of the transom bling. Think he was running a SBC stroker motor with procharger and fastfuel injection system.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...tyMouseAir.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...ightyMouse.jpg

He doesn't own the boat anymore. There are a few vids of his speed runs over on donzi.net. He had the setup nailed. It was very stable at speed.

Good looking set up...

Where do you find the long distance records like this? I always hear reference to this long distance races and it would be cool to see what's been done and the time.


Also if you want to beat it just hand Ian (from Ilmor) the keys to whatever it is. You think he talks fast, thats nothing compared to how he drives!!!! :eek: :angry-smiley-038:

You learn after time to understand Ian.....

F Buzzi broke the record from Miami to Tampa in 3 hours 47mins and 30 seconds....after the Worlds on 11/25/2004
Its on the SBI website and was sanction by SBI....

We will be attempting this between Oct and early Dec.
We will be doing it from Miami to Tampa...becuase we will have more water support on the west side of Fl heading from Naples to Tampa....
Our one stop is going to be at Marco Island for refueling...

There are a number of long distance records out there...
but with only a 27 foot boat...this is the only one we feel we have a shot at....

Mark K and I were just discussing it again today on what the time period we are looking at....