GPS data behind the "My Way" shootout runs.
 

Don't know if this has been posted yet. If so I'll delete.

Thought it was pretty interesting.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAQ8R8LwyTM[/YOUTUBE]

The powers at be should regroup on how speed is measured
this is not the first time this has happened.
I can only imagine the frustration involved in running under
these conditions.
The contenders are certainly appreciated.

WOW!!! great info

Intersting for sure.......

WOW, those are impressive speeds!!! Sure has to be a better way to measure boat speeds than the current set-up.

I think the point has been reached where the event organizers need to find a different means of accurately recording speeds.

Maybe they should install sealed self powered GPS units in each boat right before the run and retrieve it right after the run and use that data.

Even though it's a charity event, it needs to be accurate. The guys who show up, spends thousands of $$$ for and during this weekend, and risk even more by running their stuff all out. Also, going 220 mph, is a big deal. When someone volunteerly do this for our entertainment, it needs to be spot on. Otherwise it's pointless IMO. Get rid of the radar system.

In this day and age...
This video clearly shows the technology is here(and has been for years) to do the RIGHT job..!!!
WAY TO GO...MY WAY!!!

Great video and thanks. Technology is what they (loto shootout) needs to do the correct job.

I am not trying to take anything away from MYWAY. The boat is beatiful and very fast.
What is decieving is this, the course is 1 mile from start to finish lines but the rader is measuring you approximately 400' in front of the the finish line which makes the actual course 4880' or approximately .9 of a mile. All of this was covered at the 2010 drivers meeting but was not touched on at this years drivers meeting.
For people that do not believe that 400' makes much of a difference, look at this way. The boat accelerated form 40 to 217 in 5280' which means it picked up .033MPH per foot. Take 400 and multiply .033 and you get 13.2. Take 13.2 from the 217 mentioned in the video and you would get 204 on rader because it rounds up past 99.9 MPH. What this must means is somewhere during the course the boat must have accelerated more than .033 mph per foot to get the extra 4 mph. What would be real interesting is if they changed the data to measure it at 4880'.
My point in all this is I believe you all are trying to fix something that is not broken. I know that after doing some playing with mine if I used my chart plotter and looked at the speed I was going after .9 of a mile and using my GPS the speed was the same as the rader. If I look at it after 1 mile there is about 3 mph difference.
Allen Waddle

29scarab10,

How do you explain the runs with no radar readings at all ??

And the acceleration curve is not linear, so your math does not work. The faster you go, your wind resistance changes along with less wetted area as speed increases etc.

And as someone else stated, charity or not, the guys who run spend big money and time for the bragging rights they receive/earn. Don't they deserve an accurate speed reading ???

It is pretty accurate. The important thing is its the same setup for everyone. I dont hear the people in a 22' boat complain that a roller came through causing them to back off. Next thing you know, people will complain the conditions are too smooth & their boat needs 1' chop to get their best speed.

Then dont show up & spend the money. It's a free country, no one is forcing them to run the course. They show up because they love to be out on the boat, or show their equipment off. Im pretty sure 99.9% of them already know how fast their boat is.

If someone's self confidence is based on what their gps shows, then they have the right to post it. If they want everything to be official, then become a professional racer. By the time some of you guys want to implement all these changes, the whole point of the event- to raise money for the local firefighters/rescue squads, there wont be nothing left to donate. It's a two day course, sponsored by a guy that runs businesses at the lake, loves boats, & wants to keep helping the local rescue teams. If you want to fork over the funds to run things how u want, then volunteer it.

I also want to add that i havent heard any complaints coming from the actual people that ran their boats. Seems like most of the complaints are from people who are only spectating, not running. I appreciate all the guys that show up & run the course for the rest of us to watch.

Actually, in another recent thread here, Dave Scott gave the issues with the radar system as one of two reasons he didn't race this year.

If it can be improved with reasonable effort, why not? No issues from me with my small boat, but would be nice for the big guns.

Either way... fun event. :drink:

BDiggity-

If there were no complaints, then why did the My Way guys put the video out on You Tube ??

Maybe they didn't out right complain, but it sure was a nice way of showing the major flaws. And as was stated the reason Dave Scott passed on this year as well.

The fact that there were multiple times that the radar failed to read boats, tells me the boats are too fast or are not able to be clearly seen by radar. Time to try something else.

They should just use a pair of light beams in the last 100 feet. Time in, time out = speed. Simple as that.

Everyone who entered this unsanctioned event, knew how the speeds were going to be
measured. Everyone who participated, was measured using the same rules and
methodologies. Some choose not to participate, and are free to do so.

The boat is fast, no one disputes that.
The boat was the fastest on that given day, no one disputes that.

Should we raise everyone's 'radar speed'?
Should we change Romer's Skater 388 speed from the 'radar 191' to his 'gps 198'?

You want an official sanctioned result, go to an official sanctioned event.

Systems many be improved, and methodologies for measuring this, may change in the
future. For now, it is, what it is.

I have no explanation for no rader readings at all but it does happen.

I do understand acceleration curves are not linear but on average they are pretty close. Look at the graphs they provided. Like I said before, however made this video if they changed it to 4880' it would be interesting to see. My math was to only show that it was plausable. To answere your question do they not deserve an acurate speed? yes they do desrve an accurate speed but what they have proved with this video above is they do not understand the actually distance at which the speed is taken. They proved at the end of 5280' feet that they were going 217 mph however they have not proved that they got on the throttles at 0'1/64" at start line and they have not proved that where the rader was taken that they were at anything other than 208 MPH.

Last time I checked MYWAY recieved his trophy and bragging rights and when it was all said and done it was the same for everyone and as fair as possible with the resources available. What more could you ask for.

I can tell you this:
-I have seen gps give untrue speeds occasionaly.
-Transponder systems require wires above or below the water surface and will move causing irregulateries plus require a calculation that can be errored and slower to get speeds to spectators.
-With Timing lights you need to be the only thing on the water(no ducks, no jumping fish and no spectators) because they can break the beam and also require a calculation as mentioned above.
All just my opinions,
Allen

1) I would sure as hell hope that YOU are the only thing on the course when YOU are running over 200mph.
2) set the lights too high for the fish. It works in drag boat racing and has for decades.
3) Computer timing systems post speed and ET in milliseconds. I think the spectators could wait that long.
4) Not too likely there would be calculation errors.

The boats are built from material that is invisible to radar,so using that system is a bit of a joke you can never expect a good reading,Laser beams would be one option.

Someone mentioned a sealed gps unit in the boat but how would you determine everyone ran the same length and were not still accelerating past "X" point?

yep, LIDAR would work

Is that anything like "LIE-DAR"?

That's what most guys I know use to measure their speed. :lolhit:

Drag boat racing is done in creeks were the water is not a 3/4 mile wide. Drag boat racing also uses poles driven into the ground for the beams to set on. If I am not mistaken this particular area is about 64' deep making that a little impractical.
Lets face it, this is an event for charity. It does nat make any difference wether MYWAY speed was 208 or 217, it was clearly the fast boat there and he was awarded the same as he would have been if they had recorded 217. If the top speed is important to the owner go out and show us on GPS.
Allen

MYWAY was aware of this problem when the boat was in the dock before they drivers meeting Saturday morning. On the front port side sponson he had a device bolted thru one of the hatches in which I assumed was for the rader to pick up.Maybe this device was to small and is why the rader gun did not pick up 2 of his runs. Other dealt with the problem in other ways for example Eddie Young and Bruce Gibson covered the noise of there boat in a metal tape.
Allen

Does not matter cops do not have poles "driven into the ground" and measure your speed just fine.

It seems a Laser Speed Detector Mfg. would see this as a opportunity to showcase their equipment...

In my area cops do not use beams for timing equipment. They use rader or laser.

You ever notice cops using lasers hold it real close to there eyes. They are doing this aiming this device. They way it was done at the shoouout no one was on the boom lift. the rader guns are fixed mounted and have a display remotely mounted making sure that human error was not in the equation.

Just had the argument about radar accuracy with my best friend (local cop). They just had the latest Stalker system installed in one of their squads. His only comment was that the new stalker system that is permanently mounted in the squad car is much more accurate then models before. It interfaces with the vehicles powertrain control module to pick up vehicle speed. So my argument to him was that if they are running either low or worn tires wouldn't that affect the accuracy.... I think so! Let's face it, lights are way faster than sound (radar.)

They could use a vbox ( http://www.vboxusa.com/products.php ) with the optional remote hard mounted signal base to boost accuracy. Also, could use telemetry so judges could see data realtime and download remotely.

I've used them and they are pretty darn accurate.

A lot of good ideas and I hope they can come up with something.

Remember with the buffer zone if you are doing timing lights there will be about 300' between the lights as that is the approx. area between the cliff and the safety zone. Also I assume you would have to mount them on a barge and get it anchored and keeping it there for 3 days and nights I would assume presents a problem.

Remember we need a system that works for 50 different kinds of boats, there were 111 different entries this year.

One thing different about this than shooters is the radar is shooting down and at the boats rather than across at the boats when at shooters I don't know what kind of difference that is making.

Even with NASCAR which uses fairly good equipment there are always issues when pit road speeds are broken as to the accuracy.

It seems that most of the issues come up with the very fast and sleek boats. A guy that runs 83 in his Cig top gun doesn't see any error (at least I didn't) GPS said 83 and radar said 83.

for 90-95% of the boats the current system works fine, its the very sleek and fast boats something needs to be worked out. It may be as simple as coming up with a radar reflector that works well in the system or may need a totally different system. One thing Turbines have is a pretty good reflector known as the fan blades. Stealth aircraft go to great length to hide both the engines and exhaust. In myway the intake area was pretty large and the exhaust stack was clearly visable so you'd think there was a pretty good radar cross section but maybe the radar guns are not sensitive enough since they were built for cars and most cars aren't running at 200+ MPH. Maybe they need to set up another 3 guns closer to the water level at the finish.

Maybe a transponder system similar to what Mode C is in aircraft.

May only need a different system for the top 5% of boats.

I am sure Ron and the gang are working on it and I hope they are able to test whatever they are going to use and give us some feed back on it.

There is good equipment out there,Remember some Radar domes are made out of fiberglass (Our Doppler down here),that is like trying to shoot a ghost,laser beams would be a great choice, The hard work that goes into this, only to have popcorn speeds as a result, would be extremely frustrating.

Hopefully they are working on a solution I'd hate to see the big gun's skip the event because of issues with getting their speeds recorded accurately. When I read the quote from Ron Duggan in todays Lake Alert it was the first time I've ever heard that the speed is recorded 400' downstream of the finish line. I'm sure it's true but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense why they would be taking readings with over 7% of the racecourse to be covered... With most of these boats still accelerating through the finish the actual records should be quite a bit higher...

Was this the case when it was down at Shooters? If it was its not an issue if it's different they you can't even begin to compare My Way's and Dave Scott's numbers to Callan's, they would be apples and oranges...

Btw: Only the drivers have issues with Pit Road Speeds, Nascar always gives them the timing loop info where they exceeded the speed limits... After they opened up this year and put it on TV most of the complaining stopped...

I can also say that the owner and crew of MY WAY have nothing but good things to say about the organizers and all the volunteers that worked so hard to put on the Shootout.

I personaly found evryone freindly and more than happy to help with anything that we needed over the weekend, from the moment that I arived on Thursday till I pulled out again Monday morning.

Thanks to Capt. Ron and his CREW for a great experience.

Stan

""SHARKS WITH LASER BEAMS"" that's all I want...

I think that would do the trick.

Sometimes its hard to convey the proper tone over the keyboard.
The Hard work and dedication that the organizers and promoters
do should be commended.

1) disqualified
2)No radar
3)208
4)no radar
5)208
6)208


Does the above trials appear a little odd to you?
Lets drop the PR for a moment and come to the realization
that if your going to go 200mph+ six times in one day.
Do you think there may be a better way to measure the speed?

GPS reads 221 and the radar gun is stuck on 208...Please :eek:


Great points and ideas are giving in this thread.

Congrats to all the contenders.
Thanks to all the the organizers and all the volunteers.:drink:
KR

Pretty cool info,Thanks Buck for sharing:drink:

Thought you guys would like it. I thought it was cool as hell. Also shows me that the My Way crew seem to be a group of class act people. I admire them for their efforts and understanding. Just wish I was there to see it in person.

Buck

Yea the dedication it took,the time getting the set up,and alittle money too:drink:


Ive never been to the shootout before,I would like to get a chance to go one year.

Let me know when you're ready to check it off your bucket list. I'll make sure I'm there to help show you around.

Buck