Regarding the worsening Ethanol Fuel situation - a DIY solution
 

In light of the proposed increase of ethanol in gasoline, I think this will be of great interest to all boat owners, and anyone who wants to guard their engine against these highly destructive modern fuel formulations.

While they were once common place from the early 1900's up to the late 50's, there aren't too many people (myself included) that remember the old Top Cylinder Lubricators that were used to apply a uniform vapor of Marvel Mystery Oil to the top end of the engine.


These haven't been made for over 50 years, but there is one place that has a sizable leftover stock of original Ampco Lubricators which were made in the 1950's.

I originally found out about these oilers by running across that ad while browsing through a 1950's issue of Popular Mechanics magazine. I did a search for more information, and discovered the current leftover NOS from the 50's.

The gentleman who owns the Ampco store has been unfailingly helpful and attentive to my orders, and has demonstrated the kind of exemplary customer service you wish every business would adopt.

I have ordered several for my vehicles and one of the larger 2-quart models for my Formula.

Installing a couple of these on your boat's engines will not only keep them from burning up valves and rings, but will measurably extend the life of any engine, ethanol or no.

Marvel Mystery Oil itself has some rather unique properties that set it apart from other oils or additives.

Ever wonder what it is about Marvel that allows it to free rusted bolts and seized pistons? The key is in the way it smells.

It is an ingredient that the Navy has known about since the turn of the century: Oil of Wintergreen, the same stuff used to give root beer its distinctive flavor.

Oil of Wintergreen is remarkable in its ability to penetrate metal and prevent corrosion.

Ever since I learned more about Marvel, I have used it almost exclusively as a general purpose lubricant and am just amazed at how well it works. It even performs admirably as a furniture polish.

Well worth considering.

can't you just put some in the gas tank so it mix's with gas and get's burned threw the motor ?

mike

Yes, you can. Marvel recommends 4 oz. per 10 gallons of gas or diesel. This is certainly good to do, as it is a fine fuel stabilizer, and will lubricate fuel pumps.

However, the oiler is superior in that it works off of manifold vacuum. The more load placed on the engine, the more vaporized oil gets introduced into the cylinders. It is precisely adjusted via a thumbscrew on the device.

This ability to variably meter the amount that gets used relative to engine load is what makes the oiler so effective.

Were you to add as much Marvel to the fuel tank as the oiler will inject at 5000 RPM, an overly rich mixture would result at lower RPM.

Setup?
 

How is this system installed? Does it inject into the carb itself.

Thanks

Rome Burned While Nero Slept!
 

I am obviously not a chemist and not an expert in cylinder lubrication. I am not against using any additives in our fuels or oils that will benefit the reliability, durability or longevity of any engine. We should be careful here to look furthur and study furthur the real reasons behind the damage to marine engines and others now from the use of increased ethanol based fuels.
My limited knowledge and studies are now pointing to the facts that some of this damage and difficulities with using ethanol come from issues other than just cylinder lubrication, but instead can come from the chemical reactions that can occur in the combustion of ethanol laced fuels and how the chemical reactions can and do create new compounds and by-products that are also responsible for the issues and damages that are appearing in these engines. There probably is not any off the shelf product that is going to solve the real problem and issue here, don't put your hopes on a simple one stop easy fix! The real problem here is the fuel type, not the additives that might help offset some of its bad effects!
Lets not spend to much time and energy looking for a "quick simple" fix and instead lets try and help make sure that if ethanol is shown to cause significant problems and damage in our marine engines that we work towards making sure that it is not forced on us as a mandated fuel change and we suffer in the future from something we should have stopped!
What to you think? How should we halt this onslaught? Where do we go from here?
Think about it carefully, get informed and help stop what may be another "nail in the coffin of the boating industry!"
Just my two cents.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

well Ray, there is one quick simple fix. quit subsidizing the ethanol industry and quit putting it in the fuel and let the free market do it's thing. unfortunately there are too many corrupt and inept people making those decisions.

In the meantime, utilizing the "easy fix" methodology of mixing stabilizers such as Stabil, Startron, Boat Foam, Marvel etc. is our only option to at least slow down the affects of Ethanol. Also don't forget fogging and/or 2-stroking your fuel filters for winter lay up helps your injectors and fuel rails survive the Ethanol onslaught as well....Again philosophically the "easy fix" can't hurt when consistent.

Yes, you can inject into the carburetor (I plan to do this on my Q-Jet), or you can install a spacer plate with nozzle under the carb.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi-rMwUOraY&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

Ray,

Certainly, the ultimate solution would be to put a stop to ethanol blending outright. And indeed, there is a definite chemical reaction that takes place during combustion of ethanol-laced fuels.

Until we can get ethanol out of our boat's fuel, things like these oilers can only help. I strongly advocate their use regardless of what fuel an engine uses because they will help reduce wear and improve operating characteristics of any engine.

I didn't have to spend much time or energy to arrive at this conclusion, or to find out about these oilers.

The owner of the Ampco store has written a comprehensive summary of just how useful these things are on virtually any engine.

Interesting Read
 

Here's a interesting read from Business Week back in 2009

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...514_058678.htm

Yes, the hydroscopic effects of ethanol laced fuel (water production) can be slowed and helped with certain additives and I think its prudent for any boater to use the good ones to help prevent the water damage and galvanic damage to fuel systems on boats if they are using ethanol laced fuels.
In the mean time though I think we have got to stop our mis-intentioned government agencies from destorying our marine engines and making boaters pay for their mistake and subsequent damage!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

This "oiler" may help for upper cylinder lubrication but everyone is over looking the fact that ALOT of the damage that having too much Alchohol in fuel is caused by motor LEANING out, especially on 2 strokes. Example, I had a 180 hp 2 stroke arctic cat 900 cc snowmobile, it was jetted only 1-2 jets richer than the leanest it could run, the egts would stay around 1100-1150 degrees, burn down was at 1225-1250. I ALWAYS bought non-ethanol gas as I knew this and payed careful attention to my egts. I filled up at a station that always had good non-ethanol. Took off down the trail, with that days air density my egts were staying around 1050 earlier so I was pretty safe, after driving a few miles I see the egts past 1200 degrees, stopped and re-jetted. Stopped back at that station on my way home and talked to the owner, turns out they switched gas suppliers and were buying garbage gas with ethanol. Since then most places that is all you can get so you have to plan accordingly these days, jet things richer/map efi richer.
When I tuned my 1000 plus hp blower motor on the dyno i went out of my way to make sure the gas I bought HAD around 10% ethanol in it so my tune was safe enough BUT these days whenever I buy premium gas for my boat from any station I don't frequent often I do a simple alcholhol test before filling my boat as to NOT get a tank full of gas that has too much Ethanol in it (a COMMON occurence). I put together a very cheap and fairly accurate Alchohol test kit. I use a 200 cc/ml graduated cylinder and a small container of tap water that has a spout that I can drip water out of.
TEST: Pump a small amount of test sample into a clear jug, at least a 1/2 a gallon so you are getting it from the tank. Let it sit a few minutes and make sure you DON"T see a seperation near the bottom, if you see a distinct line that has a different color you are seeing PHASE separation, if you see this the gas is contaminated with water and the ethanol has fallen out of suspension from the low grade base gasoline and this station should be avoided like the plauge ( I have ran into this TWICE, in small town gas stations where not much premium gets sold). If there is NO sign of Phase separation , then you proceed to the actual test, fill your 200 m/l cylinder to as close to the 100 m/l mark as possible with your sample gas, drip your test water in a drop at a time until your meniscus (the curve at the line at top of your liquid) is now at the 105 m/l or 110 m/l mark. If you have a fancy graduated cylinder with a stopper or a screw on lid shake your sample pretty hard then let it sit, if you have no lid just swirl it around trying not to lose any liquid. Let your sample sit a minute or so, you will see the ethanol and water phase seperate, if you used 10 m/l of water and sample seperates at the 20 m/l mark you have 10% ethanol in your gas (10 m/l of Ethanol/10 m/l of water) if it seperates HIGHER than you have a even higher Alchohol content. I have done this test at MANY gas stations and in Mi I have found Speedway and Speedy Q have the worst garbage gas and should be avoided like the plauge. I have seen 18-20% Alcohol content, this could very easily lean out even a stock motor as you have to remember most boat engines are BLIND speed density/map and don't moniter the exhaust temp/how lean it might really be. This might sound like a complicated procedure but it actually only takes a minute or 2 once you get used to the test, I am VERY careful what gets pumped into my boat and Snowmobiles, Smitty

Who's paying for it anyway!
 

:eek:
Smitty:

Great information and its obvious that you take a great deal of care to protect your engines and Kudos to you for your actions.

However, I think we are missing the real points here!
First, ethanol in boats, especially the E15 & E85 appear from this industry testing and engine manufacturers warnings and warranty issues appears to be an "ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN!" Lets face it the average boater, let alone the average performance boater is not going in any great numbers to test their fuel for ethanol percentage or fuel quality, nor should they really have to!

Second, lets not forget that the oil companies and refiners and distributors are selling a potentially bad and sometimes defective product for a NICE HEALTHY PROFIT! Why in Gods name should the purchasers of this product have to spend time and money to test fuel and why should they the fuel consumer be responsible for the damage and the expense of damage repair when that (EXPENSIVE) product is defective or damages their property.

Heck, I am not a lawyer, but I am sure any halfway knowledgable lawyer could make that case on almost any consumer product!

This is what really pisses me off! Our inept enviromental agencies have given a license to these oil compnay, refiner, distributor companies to raise the price of the product to cover this great new enviromental fuel protection system that destroys the consumers property and everyone, even a lot of boaters seem to believe that it's perfectly OK!!

Hell, I don't think its OK and I think a lot of boaters and others who will suffer from this problem greatly should start raising their voices, votes and influence and stop this ripoff until a more reliable and property safe fuel blend can be found and PROVEN to be safe for engines and equipment that will use it.
Why should we take our time and expense to test the fuel they make billions selling us?? That sounds OK to you??
Not to me! Let the companies who make the product and profit from its sale ,test, certify and provide a product that is safe and relaible to use in our engines PERIOD!

Heck, I know, I am back on the soapbox again, but we have to keep it simple and remember we have been given a problem we did not ask for. We need to give the problem back to those who created it and profit from it!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Smitty,

Thanks for sharing! Have you done this test on Shell gas? Do you think that Shell gas in SoCal is worse than Shell gas where you live?

the oil companies are having this pushed on them also. realize this also, going to water base paint has left varnish stock that is getting mixed with gasoline and no more mogas(motor gas; low grade fuel). check out gasoline MSDS and you'll see acetone, xylene and toulene in fuel gas along with ethanol and/or methanol. the addition of stabilizers or oil products(top-end lube, 2-cycle oil and possibly MMO) reduces the attraction of humidity to get to the alcohol. the solvents(alcohols) react with the 2-cycle diaphragm pumps(compatible rubbers are too hard or soft) when water gets with alcohols it forms acid that eats aluminum(carb, fuel pump bodies, fuel rails and filter housings) this leaves white residue(similar to lead in old fuel tanks) that clogs carbs(especially EPA carbs with reduced passages) and fuel injectors. i live in iowa and have seen problems since Katrina, they used ethanol to stretch gasoline capacity. quikleen helps get engine performance back, put it in wifes van about once a quarter, the new octane booster with MMT seems to work for roadtrips so her vans not a total dog. they use ethanol to raise octane, water combines with alcohol and falls out of suspension and you now have low octane gas. Shell V-Power Premium seems to be lowest % 6-7 when tested. NMMA is fighting EPA with testing by Mercury and IH;International is fighting them over diesel treatment. maybe we can get back to reality.

I always wondered if you blew a motor and had gas at over 10% if the gas station or fuel suplier would be liable? It says 10% MAX on the label.... So if I was to blow a motor and test the fuel and find it to be at say 20% wouldn't they be liable?

Holy sh!t bill nye!!!
Im going to have to print this one and bring it out to the garage.
MD

Be carevull with the green bottle additive it takes the clear coat off the boat made mine like gel. I was using it because of ethanol .
Rich

In Mi the Shell gas is the BEST you are going to buy from the pump, I find the 93 that is supposed to be 10% Ethanol is actually 3-4% here alot, Smitty

Last winter a few of my friends had their two stroke snowmobiles burn down. These sleds were maintained well etc, etc. We started thinking about the ethanol levels prompting a call to two refineries. I spoke with a chemist at each company asking specifically about additives to mitigate these effects.

Long story short there are none. While neither one of the employees would say for sure that these additives are "Junk" they did say that the biggest problem with ethanol fuels are phase separation. Simply put when ethanol in the fuel absorbs all the water it can (Saturation) any additional water will cause the water/ethanol mix to separate from the gas lower the octane level at least three points (I was told likely more).

I was told that fuel ought to be used in a two week period. If stored, use stabil (Helps, not a cure). If in amrine environment drain the tank. I know its contrary to what we all have been told in the past.

Common sense regarding additives, if one were the magic bullet, it would have mobil, bp etc. on the bottle and sold at every station. Ethanol is detrimental to ALL of our hobbies.

I was also told that it will not increase higher than 10% due to auto manufacturers not having fuel systems that will survive.

I am dynoing a Pontiac 455 that has moderate compression the past week or 2, I been using Shell V-power 93 octane, the first batch of 25 gallons I bought was 3% "other" when I tested it so it had very little Alchohol, I tested another 20 gallon batch I bought 10 days later and it was bewteen 6-7% so it is by far the best pump gas I have ever found, Smitty

Good luck with that, I blew a Snowmobile up that was jetted safe 6 miles after filling up in the UP of Mi, went back and tested the gas there too the next day, crap was watered down, phase seperated garbage, talked to a Lawyer, said bring him 2500$ and he would file suit, he sent a nasty letter to this independent,never got a response. I avoid that place now like the Plague, I try to never buy gas from small town low volume stations any more and I do test the stuff often. I mentioned this Trout Lake Mi gas station on a Snowmobile forumm and I wasn't the first guy to blow up after gassing up there!!!! Smitty

I have found in testing that MANY stations are past 15% ethanol and some were almost 20%, no one checks this. I have melted down Snowmobiles after getting crap gas, had a incident a few years ago from a local station near my house, it was closed while new owners took over, just re-opened, I filled 2 sleds up and went up riding over Christmas, I made it 1 mile before both sleds started running so bad they quit. I walked back and found some fresh gas, used one to tow the other back and luckily this stuff had phase seperated so bad they simply just quit instead of leaning out and melting down which was a pia but I didn't have tpo do anything other than drain them, clean out the carbs and lines then they were fine. I bought a gallon of premium there the next day and it was 1/2 water/ethanol and one half low grade gas. You didn't need to test it to see it, the clear 1 gal bottle I had it in was divided 1/2 way down!!!! The gas station owner gave me the money back for the bad gas, and 100$ for my trouble, still lost a day of riding and had to walk but I know from past experience that taking him to court would cost more than it was worth and I didn't in that instance acxtually have a serious loss. I can't stress enough for people to spend a few minutes doing a simple test to see the content of alchohol is there gas,, it will either give you piece of mind or you will know to NEVER buy from that station, Smitty

Maybe this kit is a slightly easier version for what Smitty was talking about??

Looks like it's expensive enough and apparently you pay that much per sample so maybe you try to buy your boat fuel at one place only and say maybe sample it once a month??

I dunno -

http://www.fuel-testers.com/order.html

I am just going to buy a Diesel boat ......with stacks!! That will solve my issues. Can you say REDNECK??:lolhit:

That is a simple cheap test kit, 32$ and if you read the fine print the titrating solution is enough to test 450 times, not a one shot deal, Smitty

Mercury marine sells a simple to use ethanol test kit for under $10.00 if I remember correctly. You put a small amount of gas in a vile and add a small amount of tap water, wait a couple of minutes then read the scale on the vile for percentage of ethanol.

Why involve a Lawyer in something like that? Just do the small claims thing. They would have a hard time defending it if you can show that the ethenol was over the 10% mark. Now instead of blowing a sled motor that costs you a grand or two to fix what about some of these guys motors that have huge money in then. :eek::eek: I did do a search and there seem to be a few going but no results posted.

The thing is, without subsidies, the only fuel sold would be ethanol! Ethanol without any subsidies of any kind, including all costs (such as land and the fact you've got to invest in growing it for a long time before you can make it and then it still takes awhile before you can sell it) COSTS ABOUT $1.10 PER GALLON in the tanker truck driving to your local gas station.

Its actually the petroleum industry that gets the hand outs, even at $100 a bbl. Count the ways: 1) they get the hundreds of millions of years it took for oil to form for free; 2) they get the hundreds of billions of dollars per year required for military protection of the global supply chain for free; 3) they get the global climate change effects for free (everyone will pay an awfully large bill soon for this); 4) they get the global distribution infrastructure (harbors, pipelines, trains, roadways) for free; 5) They get the oil itself for essentially nothing (the leases are essentially free); 6) They get to pollute the ground water for free (everyone else pays).

In other words, the petroleum industry is very similar to the financial industry in its privatization of profits combined with the public bailouts for liabilities. Its really hard to get further from free enterprise than with entrenched energy.

Strike back. Buy stock in the oil companies and collect your share of the profits.

Really? Where can you buy it for that? I work in the chemical industry, and our commodity purchasers would love to know your supplier - fuel grade ethanol is trading right now for an average of $1.93 without frieght.

And that is, by the way, the subsidized price.

Your right I should have, big thing too was logistics, 400 miles away, Mom and Pop gas station, they just gave me stupid looks when I came back and sampled there fuel the next day and showed them. I guess the first warning clue I should have paid attention to too was they were heating the place with a wood burner and there house was attached to the store/gas station!!!

I was not thinking a sled. I blew up both mine and I am convinced it was bad gas because both times I filled up at the same stationa nd both times I made it the same distance and blew up. I now need to rebuild them both. SUCKS!!! Especially the Rev 1000 that is like working on the space shuttle. Time lost in the suite is better spent just putting the damn things together ourselves..... I was more thinking all these guys with huge buck boats and huge repair bills after getting screwed by this stuff. Hell even just the disposal of the fuel must be an expensive undertaking. :eek:

$600-1000 to fill up. Pump out the bad fuel. pay to get rid of the bad fuel. 600-1000 to fill up again. So that is possibly 3 grand and we have not even talked about the blown up parts.....

This one cracks me up! :bsflag:

We're not going to beat them, so you might as well join them. It is the move of the future between being on the sidelines complaining or being in the game.

I just bought a new eco brand weed wacker, the warranty info states to use minimum 89 octane to keep the warranty valid due to the ethanol content. Apparebtly 87 eats up the seals, i now buy 89 always

i blew up my bone stock 2008 skidoo 800R last season,so did lots of other guys, ethanol has a big part to do with it IMO.

i sold it and bought a 1200 4 stroke for this year, honestly i cant trust a high performance 2 stroke with the **** fuel they are selling us nowadays so 4 stroke was my only choice. sure its not quote as fast but it beats losing a weekend of riding or being stranded in the middle of fuggin nowhere at -15f......

I just bought a leaf blower with a 4 cycle engine. Manual says no less than 89 octane and NO MORE than 10% eth. So does that mean when they force 15-20% on us, I gotta by another leaf blower??

It's apparent to me that; the politicians are forcing this crap on us knowing that it's harming our engines, be they boats, sleds, bikes, yard equipment.....whatever. Yet, they persist in forcing the eth on us, regardless. Our representitives are being paid off, plain and simple.

Ray: as I re-read your first post in this thread, I'm left a tad frustrated from its disparaging tone.

Was such a swift denouncement of these top cylinder lubricators really necessary?

I've read so many insightful posts that you've made about engines, and am most surprised at your immediate dismissal of these lubricators as a waste of time and energy.

I would have thought you of all people might see their value.

What gives?

Ethanol is the problem not additives
 

JP-8:
I did not think my comments were negative on additives and top cylinder lubricators. I was just pointing out that they will not necessarily take care of all the issues that ethanol laced gasoline will develop in marine engines. The real effects of ethanol especially in the storage of fuel and the hydroscopic effects of ethanol in fuel especially the new E-85 blends the EPA wants to mandate have not even come to the forefront yet. For many years there have been many products that came to market , some with "end all, be all" claims and solutions to engine wear and manitenance issues. Some and most did not make it so.

If one really studies all the effects of ethanol fuel in marine engines and read the resutls of many tests on the damages done by this fuel blend, one will see that currently there does not appear to be one single additive or even a group of two orthree that will solve all the problems that will arise with the use of this fuel over the next few years.
You obviously believe very strongly in the efficacy of this additive and you are certainly entitled to that belief and support.

I on the other hand am more concerned about the fact that we as boaters and engine builders are being forced to use a fuel type (without good pollution effect statistics) that is currently and will in the future lead to significant damage and cost for boaters so a small industry can make new profits at the expense of the fuel users. Remember these are the same agencies that forced the use of MTBE additives in gasoline and then came back a few years later and told us it was very dangerous, poisonus and had to go!

Additives can be wonderful products when they are well researched, tested, used and proven to improve engine operation, maintenance and life. I am not telling anyone not to use them nor am I criticising anyone for using any of these products. That's a choice each consumer has to make and its obvious that some products help offset some of the damaging effects of ethanol in fuel for marine use.

What I was trying to say in my previous posts is that I believe its wrong for our government agencies to put new fuel mandates in place without good research and testing. I believe that the boating community is especially being used as a "lab guinea pig" on this with the in use situation that is now in place. I know over the next few years a lot of this potential engine and fuel system damage will appear and accelerate in boats. Raylar as an engine builder I guess it will make for business for my company and others, however its new business I would rather not have or see.

If additives either one or a few can help eliminate this damage then that's great! I just feel its wrong for us to have to pay for someone else's (mandated ethanol use in marine engines) mistakes and add addtional costs to the already expensive cost of boat ownership and use!
Sorry if I seemed to be speaking negatively about an additive you believe in, I was not trying to do that.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Certainly, these oilers aren't an end-all solution, but it would seem that the presence of a light oil might serve to lessen some of the harmful effects ethanol presents (perhaps hold those combustion byproducts in suspension), with the additional lubrication as a bonus.

I've never been a purveyor of additives, and only make exception for MMO due to its highly useful properties, and as a means of extending engine life.

Ethanol has done some terrible things to several of my engines, leaving me rather disgruntled, and thus willing to try a less conventional approach.

The concept of auxiliary lubrication appeals to me, and I do believe it will prove a worthwhile investment.

Owing to the relative obscurity of these things, I've noted quite a bit of negativity tends to get leveled at them by default. Usually, by those considered an authority on engines.

In any case, you've made some fantastic points, Ray. There isn't much regard for what impact Ethanol will have on existing marine engines in particular. It could be looked upon as generating more business with the need for more frequent repairs and all-out replacements, but the individual gets the short end of the stick, as per usual.

It seems that in these discussions of Ethanol, some variation of the phrase: "the point everyone keeps missing is..." will get invoked, and then the subsequent effort to enlighten always turns to pointing fingers at politicians and the like.

People are blaming the mechanism of implementation rather than the root cause.

The fuel we buy is already overpriced. The engines that burn it have not only been designed to wear out quickly, but are intended to be needlessly inefficient so as to consume enough fuel to generate the sort of profit margins to which the big oil companies feel entitled to.

This is often too harsh a revelation for your average motor enthusiast to come to grips with.

When the usual "well... if that were true, then how come: <insert garden variety closed-minded reasoning here?>" attempts fail to dispense with such nonsense, there's always the age-old standby of simply labeling someone a delusional conspiracy theorist.

I started a thread about the subject here back in April. While there was a fairly even divide between those who understood and the obligatory naysayers, the greatest opposition came from folks who had formal engineering backgrounds.

An engineering degree isn't necessary to comprehend that with the addition of Ethanol, the potential energy of the fuel is lessened, thus reducing the engine's already dismal efficiency to a level so ridiculous that it almost makes the horse and buggy look sensible.

Ethanol fuel has been forced upon us, to be sure. But then again, petroleum fuel has been forced upon us right from the beginning.

We always hear of the need to switch from petroleum to a more reliable (and honest) source of fuel. The technology has existed for over 150 years, and is being refined all the time, yet no efforts are ever made to implement it.

Here is just one example of something we could be using today that would bring an end to the oil age, and the control it has over everyone:

A great read and excellent primer

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql-PfwuHFoY[/YOUTUBE]

The latest version of the concept:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MifFKgWC0g&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]