Great Photos. Glad Bobby and Danny are OK!

They need better control of the rules. Canopy certification that last 3-5 years and then replace. Replace after an incident where the canopy takes a hit. Structural support ctiteria for canopy system and possible uses of head restraint systems all need to be looked at.

Very scary. Brings back terrible memories for me. I'm glad they are ok.

Question: If the failure point of the canopy is the top collapsing from the force of the water, would some time of roll cage or reinforcement solve that issue?

I'm sure it can't be that simple, but wouldn't the troubleshooting begin at the point of the failure?

Yes a "cage" would help even a composite one but there gotta be a hatch too there which makes it problematic.

Glad they R OK!:coolcowboy: Those pix R crazy!!!!! I'm lucky I can take a single shot w/ my pocket camera!!!!!!:party-smiley-004:

One obvious first step would be to narrow that canopy surface area by at least 50%. As long as it remains so spread out, it will keep collapsing with the pressure of the water.
And also make sure there is a second hatch on the tunnel floor (under them) for quick extraction by rescue when the boat is upsidedown. Two things that will make a huge difference in safety.

Glad to hear they are okay.

The only problem with the drag boat comparison is that Offshore boats are at least three to four times heavier, and Force = Mass x Acceleration. The structural load on an offshore cockpit is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than on a drag boat or tunnel boat, or even an unlimited hydroplane. I think it (offshore cockpit safety) probably can be done, but it definitely has its own unique set of circumstances.

Now Is The Time for Action!
 

My personal opinion as an engineer is to stop looking at the canopy of the boat for safety designs and the boats outer hull as a safety control. Look to seperate internal structure under the canopy, occupant restraint systems and better extraction structure to allow quick exit or retrieval of the racers when the boat is upsidedown or sinking. Have you ever seen a race car without a roll cage?!!! Why do high speed car racers use Hans devices?!!! How long can an injured or unconcious racer breathe under water?!!! Lastly , lets not forget to incorporate this type of safety construction and features in the recreational boats who are capable of the same speeds and potential damage and injury!! Its only a matter of time when this type of tragedy will strike again in the recreational scene!
Another post was started today with commentary from a Miami Florida newspaper on banning this type of boat racing.
This is a warning shot over the bow! Our industry must get moving quickly on this need!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

I like the idea of building the cockpit as a completely separate part of the boat with its own liner, roll cage and all as an integral part of the pod. It also breeds better quality control across the board and makes it easier for the race organizations to inspect a boat prior to a race. Nowadays, I bet they just sorta look at it and give a thumbs up...( I know that's not always the case, just exaggerating)

It think of it like taking an engineering drawing of say a hydro pod, super-sizing and building stronger due to the size, weight etc. I know there was a group of racers who did a lot of the ground work for this but I just think maybe it needs to go to the next level? It's like building an overpass versus the Verrazano Bridge. A structural engineer would design it, then it would be tested and certified.

Sorry if I come off strong, I just hate seeing us lose more racers, friends an aquaintence or maybe even losing family one day... :(

Incredible shots, Jim. Which boat were you on?

And to just think this was just a stuffing!!
Glad you guys are ok and will be back in the future.

Not to be insensitive but how bad were the canopy failures in the two other major accidents. You now have to consider flipping and landing like BTM backwards and upside down. I remember Cat Can Do doing the same kind of flip and only losing the sponson tip and race hatches during the Kilo run in NC back in 99' or 00'

http://youtu.be/9W_MslE5ntE

We think alike... despite not being an engineer ;)
Full face helmets, air masks, Hans Devices and full race suits go a long way in protecting yourself flying around IN the canopy/racecar....despite wearing 5 or 6 point racing harnesses that keeps just your torso in the seat... limbs & head are all free to fly wherever.
And all these safetydevices are relatively cheap plus not much mods needed on the boats.
I've been touting for these for years. Never had a problem to adapt to a Hans device for example. Especially after watching some crash videos without one.... would think and powerboater in a fast boat would want one... just like using a helmet with a motorcycle/moped/gokart...

The fully encapsulated "pod" idea needs to be fully explored. A much tighter, snug area for better bodily protection.

Here's a safety 'pod' that has been protecting outboard racers at 130mph+ for over 20 years. There is no roll cage - the structure is all carbon fiber/kevlar/core material. The contoured and reduced amount of surface area prevents implosion from water pressure. The actual canopies are small, but there still are failures in crashes. But keeping the width of the opening as narrow as possible helps block the power of water dynamics.

http://opcrace.com/news/wp-content/u...2-768x1024.jpg

Wow!!! Great shot!!! Those pics are crazy. Glad they were ok:)

nobody has addressed the fact that in all instances the plexi/lexan/whatever/ windscreens imploded on impact,,, the resulting incoming water pressure and volume THEN tore the canopy away from the supports

you don't see aircraft windshields doing this when they hit rain at 400-500 mph....

which begs the question, what thickness or mil rating is the clear glass/plastic/lexan/whatever?

Apparently we won't have reinvent the wheel on this. Over the past few years, the UIM has already adopted new cockpit standards for offshore racing which were already approved back in 2010.

These standards were the product of many years of engineering brainstorming, and do incorporate all the decades of innovations and discoveries in safety cockpit design and accessories that have been collected throughout the boat racing world.

Polycarbonate is what we used in Stylin, its also what Skater 1/4 Canopies are made of. Im not sure if its used in the newer raceboats. Polycarbonate is used in F-16s

Big Thunders canopy was distroyed Page's canopy from what i can see wasn't damage but i could be wrong. btw page's boat had escape hatch, full oxygen and seats with head restrants.

I may have this completely wrong but I heard the issue with Page's accident was they could not get the hatch open and needed a crowbar?

Wow, Unbelievable Pics..!! Glad they are ok !!!

That must of been an extremely hard impact on the body...

i was on the sebago, shooting into the sun most of the day and super choppy...was not a pleasureable afternoon

there are some with cages now, seen pics of one glassed in and another up against the roof. maybe someone has the pics. nice set of pics too. glad they made.

Jim, why did you tell me to f&&k off for daring to question canopy strength on another forum but here you are discussing it and also questioning the viability of canopies? That's all I was doing on the other forum. Amazing pictures BTW and glad that all were OK this time. This could have been another bad one the way the canopy failed.

My posts:
So now I wonder if these canopies provide a false sense of safety and maybe they should revisit this issue. In comparison, drag boats use break-away capsules with fighter jet canopies and unlimited hydroplane capsules seem bulletproof. Maybe something can be learned from this tragedy.

I watched that video over and over and it looks like the canopy should have held up better. And if it's not OK to talk about this now then when exactly will it be OK???? In another week no one will be discussing it and it will be just another boating fatality that we have put behind us. That is, excepting those immediately affected by it. So don't tell me not to talk about it. I am not disrespecting or blaming anyone. Just maybe there should be some standards set to help prevent this in the future.

Your response:
Carl, how does a failed canopy on a dead man's boat DIRECTLY AFFECT YOU??

it doesn't, and if you don't like that statement, you can go f&&k yourself

the OSO pic's were respectfully deleted so as not to adversely affect the somber mood, and re-direct un-needed pile-on comments from morbid people like you, that have no direct affect as to the design, engineering, or use thereof.

if your still that morbidly curious, then call Peter at Skater and ask him DIRECTLY, the general internet public won't know the answer so why badger everybody...

I feel your pain- sun gets kinda sharp as the day goes on.

That sequence has gotta make up for it! :drink:

Ouch !!! Been there done that, not good!

Absolutely fantastic shots, you can see it comming. The fly, trip, and the stuff.

Wow ! That boat had two hatch's.

Carl, the bodies were still warm when you started your rant, the event is over now... besides, my question revolves around the windshield integrity not the canopy construciton itself..

I stand by what I said AT THAT TIME

Amen

Theres alot that can be done here for sure, Polycarbonate should easily be able to get to a thickness where it would hold up at the very least.

also Nikon those are incredible pics.

crash photos are important IMO because they help people have a healthy respect for what can unfortunately happen.

Sonny Hawkins has been working on this for a while.

http://www.tigerperformance.com/powerpoint.html

Also, when John Arruda was building the Mary Mac boat I asked about the canopy glass. Was informed that it was two inches thick.

I've been meaning to pose this question since everyone has began to make light of the canopy integrity issues. It's always been my very uneducated opinion, or understanding, that most canopy boats provided canopies for little more than protection from wind, flying objects, unfavorable race conditions, etc. Are ANY of these canopies truly designed for anything more than this? Are they truly intended to provide a "capsule" upon rollover, etc??? I've just never heard them discussed as much as a "safety" device as they were a "comfort" option.

Canopy boats are suppose to be safer I'm really starting to wonder if a strapped in racer with less canopy whould be safer?Easier escape better view?Just sayin not an expert!:(

I hear some have roll bars, but unfortunately some have compromized there integrity in the past from what I have heard in the name of visibility etc. thats hear say and not realted to any recent crashes or anything.

So the intent on safety has been there on some set ups.

Like any sport theres a learning curve and tragedy is usually the motivating factor for upgrades much like in any other sport, drag racing, nascar, drag boats etc

As stated previously Nothing is fool proof unfortunatley and racing is a dangerous game. we all know it, but we all hope for the best.

All we can do is hope for the safest outcome for our racing freinds who risk it all to do thier thing.


the capsules of the drag boats are a great Idea for offshore racing IMO. I hate reading about fatalities or injuries of anyone. Breaks my heart to see these guys lose thier lives and effects me deeply everytime I read one of the crash posts.

Maybe cause I know they were just trying to enjoy thier sport and get that feeling we all crave of being best guy out there on that given day.

absolutely, no disrespect intended for anyone who has had a crash, I consider any racer a brother maybe thats why these crashes bother me so much.

Just on the news Station wsvn7 interveiwed Danny today. Thought I would post the web address for all to see.
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/lo...victim-speaks/. There was alot of sadness in his voice as he talks about what has happen in the past week. God Bless and RIP for those dedicated drivesr who has left for a better life with the man above..

Didn't class one over in Europe make spec changes to their canopies based off information learned from the victory crash last year? It looks like the canopies have a raised hatch.
I think talkin trash was the only boat to change their canopy based off these new standards. By the way how come talkin trash ws not at the worlds this year?

Wow!!

I am amazed at the reactions when I see/read about boat accidents. The disbelief..... I don't give a rats a$$ how well a canopy is built, the impact alone is enough to kill somebody. Snap necks, break backs, etc. etc. Anybody that walks away from something like this should go buy a lottery ticket. One of the saddest and unfortunete things I have come to learn/realize with high speeds in a boat is: "Its not if.... its when" . When I think about high speed impact it makes me cringe.

I disagree. ALL areas should be addressed including the canopy which failed on Big Thunder, Warpaint and both Victory boats with their fatalities several years ago. I'm with you on the rollcage and the other things. The HANS device will certainly help with stuffs but I wonder if racers would wear it because their heads would be almost immobile, causing issues with peripheral vision.

The HANS device was invented to prevent basilar scull fractures. A fracture that occurred in formula cars, high G accidents, with a very reclined seating position and heavy full face helmets. Conditions that put a lot of strain on the base of the scull.

Offshore powerboat accidents are usually moderate G accidents, upright seating, and lighter helmets.

Are basilar skull fractures a common problem in offshore racing? If so, HANS or other head and neck restrains should be adopted by as many as possible.
If not, the risk of the HANS getting stuck when evacuating should be considered.

Just my 2 cents.