Performance boat school trained or untrained
 

Are you TRAINED or UNTRAINED

As with any type of human performance endeovour the definable measurement bwtween those trained and those untrained is significant.

Sign up today for special classes being held in Miami/Fort Lauderdale with dates surrounding the Fort Lauderdale Boat School and the Key West Poker Run.

28-29 October
03-05 November

Sign up before 30 September to recieve a LIfeLine #160 Starter Jacket with each UPC or HPC Course Registration.

Brad
954.560.9080

The best post I saw so far regarding your school was " If it was more affordable I might consider going" guess his life, his family and friends life isn't worth 1500 bucks !!!

Great School, Everyone needs to attend it, even the super rich and real important people could learn a few things !!!

Re:school
 

And even the people with big egos !

I think that is an unfortunate comment. It doesn't boil down to $1500 (and I think the price is more depending on the type of boat) - it boils down to a) tuition, b) getting an instructor and your boat in the same location, and c) time - time away from work, time away from family, time away from other obligations - you get the picture (and time away from work means $$ to most of us).

Don't get me wrong - I fully support training and ongoing education in whatever one does (and will make every effort to take Tres' class if he ever gets to Lake Erie or if I ever haul my boat to Florida), but I don't belittle those who admit they can't afford to take a particular course at this particular time. Nor do I suggest that failure to take a particular couse means one is unfit to carry on a particular activity. Was I unfit to ride my motorcycle on the highway before I went to school and received my racing license? No. Was I unfit to scuba dive in Mexico before I received advanced/drysuit/nitrox certification? No. Am I unfit to operate my boat because I have not taken Tres' course? No.

Conversely, was I fit to be on a track at race speeds just because I had a M endorsement on my driver license? No. Was I fit to don a drysuit and dive to 110' in Lake Erie with a nitrox fill without the proper training? No. Am I fit to undertake extreme maneuvering at maximum speed now? Maybe, maybe not, but that is why I operate my boat within the limits of my experience and existing conditions.

Again, I fully support training in general and this training in particular, but I don't think an inference that someone values his family less than $1500 is helpful to anyone.

My $0.02.

R/S,

db

That could not have been said in any better way. Kudos to you and it's nice to see these words coming from someone running in "big power".

+1. I would like to take the course but $1500 is a good chunk of my income.

I have zero formal training and said this to a guy i met in Havasu. He went on to rip me apart for that, my boat was not even running through his entire speech...I than watched him drink about 8 cocktails and leave.

I understand where you are coming from, and I think its great that you are aware enough to run your boat within your own comfort zone and limits, but the other part is that you don't know what you don't know. All I am saying is most people with big horsepower boats could learn alot about there own boats when it comes to the knowledge of high pressure water and low pressure under there hull and how that effects the handling and control.... most just have no idea !!! Lets just say in my personal situation I learned alot that I didnt even know existed right down to the proper way to turn your boat to make sure your props are always in solid water !!!!

Great class period !!!

It is a great class.
My wife, Shannon and I took it and would recommend it to anyone that runs the boat...

Ford sells a 662hp Shelby to anyone who can afford it? Do we not relate the relative point that the overall hp number of that car is dangerous in the hands of anyone whom is not responsible?

It is all relative. Most individuals that buy that car operate it within their means. Others, the few, are ignorant and don't know their boundaries. The same holds true for our passion of boating. It is not cheap, it has its inherent dangers, most use common sense and operate within what they are capable of doing.

Sometimes, you get the bad egg that drinks a few, wants to show off, or is simply caught off guard. Does that make every other responsible boater "bad" because they haven't taken a course?

Even in other elite sports, things happen. NASCAR, NHRA, NMRA, and I could go on. There are inherent dangers and we assume the risks of things that can happen every day we roll out of bed.

Who are we to chastise and belittle others who enjoy our sport. My position, support and educate, share personal stories and hope others heed our warnings and apply some aspect of the message to their personal operation. It's no different that how our parents raised us. We take our experiences and hope that our children have a better experience and learn from our teachings.

In part, many of the messages throughout pages of posts/threads, some "big swingers" take shots at others. I'm not going to knock the guy who runs a '88 Baja Force because it's a 20yr old boat. I'm going to encourage the individual to enjoy the sport because as long as you're on the water you're in a better place than most. I'm not going to feel as less of a boater because I'm running a 6yr old used boat because I can't afford a 50' cat.

I boat within my means. I spend within my means. I enjoy life for what it is and try to ensure everyone around me has a positive experience as well. It often seems that those who ridicule others are projecting the lack of "self" on others and it sure is EASY when you're doing it through the security of a keyboard.

Remember, we're all on this forum to enjoy, learn, and share our passion for the water, smell of exhaust, thump of a cam, and the ding in our wallet to maintain and fuel our passion.

Do you know when you buy that Shelby you get a class to the Ford racing school ?? Would you think that if you have that Shelby and you have a chance to open it up on the open road somewhere you would absolutley want to hear from the professionals how that ass end handles coming out of a corner at 150mph, or where you should set up for the apex of a turn cause of the suspension set up ??? So the same holds true about a high horsepower go fast boat .... untill you know how your hull handles in high pressure water under the hull at 90MPH plus ... you should take the course !!

Couple points... If a dealer offers a class then that's cool but Ford does not give you a class with the Ford Racing School. Did you know Ford uses GTs at their school? Not sure how that relates to the power and handling of a Shelby but that's besides the point.

Also, if you are a true offshore enthusiast or road racer would you really mention "opening it up on an open road"? No, I think you would say, "keep it to the track". But, whom am I to pass that statement along. Maybe I'm not qualified to drive or own my Cobra since it has 630hp?

More so, would you say I'm an uninformed fool because my boat runs a single step and can hit 70mph since I haven't taken a specific class? Maybe so. However, again to my point and what others have mentioned, it's about driving it within your means. Your comment about knowing how your boat handles at 90mph and how the hull handles under high pressure conditions is a moot point for many because just because a boat can do that doesn't mean the operator will push the limits. Believe it or not, some people respect the machine(s) they're operating.

I will be taking Tres' class but because I haven't doesn't mean I'm not capable of managing and maintaining control of my vessel while operating within my range of knowledge and experience.

My response above was not aggressive. It was a holistic view of a personal belief about our environment, sport, and enthusiasts.

Operate within means. To further your knowledge, take the course.

I went to Sears driving school and raced cars for many years. Does that count?

:lolhit:

I have never taken Tres class, but when I first got my boat I spend a day with a friend Martin Sanborn and was taught how to properly trim and turn my boat. Not just put you tabs and drives here when you do this but why. If you don't understand how a hull works you need the class.

Oh and in 7 years I have never had an insurance claim, had I not spent that day with Martin that probably would not be the case.

I took Tres's class a couple of years ago, here is my observation of the class:

I think those that feel it is about money are not seeing the whole picture. The class easily pays for it self, in real money, not just perceived savings. You will learn to operate your boat in a manner that will create substantially less wear on your drive components, thus less broken parts, more money saved. There is also the insurance savings, depending on your company you can save 5-10%.

The first day is learning the how and why a boat is designed like it is, balance, power and yes safety. day 2 is learning how to drive the boat. Unless you are a nautical engineer day one is going to start out as a challenge. Tres was our instructor, and his no left behind policy was what I needed, by the end of the day, I understood. It is a great feeling but more importantly, I now understand why by throwing just more power at it, will not make it go faster or handle better...

As stated day 2 is driving the boat, this can go easy or hard, just depends what your ego will allow you to accept and how open minded you are going into the day. This is when you will learn how importantly day 1 really was, ie: what you learned and how it transcends to the real world of handling.. You will be amazed...

And getting a class is this easy: Call Tres, he will come to you, What you need to hold the class is 1) a room big enough for you and maybe a couple of other people, 2) get a dry erase board for illustrations and 3) a tv/dvd combo to watch the real action videos that showcase in real terms what you are learning. and finally 4) you need access to your boat for 3+ hours... Thats it... 2 days out of your life, if you can't work that out, your priorities are messed up, really...

Whether it is Tres's class or someone Else's take the knowledge, it will make you a better driver and oh yea, safer too. You will understand once you learn. If you still don't see it, you are not safe. Sorry but that is a fact...

Excellent post.

So your observations are:

Anyone who hasnt taken the course has messed up priorities,... and anyone who hasnt taken the course is,in your opinion, a FACTUALLY unsafe boater?

See that in itself is the point... Education in boating and learning the correct way to operate the boat as well as understanding what and why the boat is set up, translates to safety. And yes, If you do not fully understand every aspect and are unwilling to learn, you are unsafe.

Whether it is a class through Tres Martin, or a qualified performance boat teacher, does not matter as long as you learn.

We can debate this all you want, if a person is unwilling to take the time to learn how to properly drive a performance boat, they are putting everyone in jeopardy, including themselves, their crew and the other boaters around them. I personally do not know anyone.... that falls into the "they know everything" catagory... (regardless of what they may tell you....)

Example: Pilots; Now take a guy that has learned in a Piper Cub, may have hundreds of hours in it, but just won the lottery and wants a Pitts Aerobatic Plane so he goes out an buys one The following week he says jump in lets go.... I think I'll stay on the ground until he learns a bit more, even though he has hundreds of hours flying and may be a very safe person. I realize this may seem like an extreme example, but is it really?

you're funny. I don't think you can rape the willing. no boater has said they're not willing. myself included. I just bought my Sunsation but have been boating since I was a child. I wanted to take tees' class this year at Cumberland but my schedule didn't work. I plan on taking it next year but your comments and others make it seem as though boaters like myself should stay dockside.

for now, it's more important for me to pay my bills, add to savings and pay my $1500 a month child support than squander my savings and step out from my responsibilities as a father and business professional to run off to take this course. in the interim, I will continue to boat safely within my abilities

You appear to be caught up on the cost, that is not the point...

You appear to be willing to learn, that is good, you appear to be the type to feel like you are safe, that is good, you are open to learning, that is good. Now take it to the next level and become better at what you do. Fit it in when you can. Those that feel they are above learning are the ones that scare me.

Like I stated in both posts, whether it is a full fledged course or hooking up with a qualified teacher, as long as you learn the proper techniques, and the engineering behind what/way the boat responds like it does, you will be much safer.

This is a general statement, not at any specific person: Handling a bad situation can be un-nerving and coming out of it, even worse. (we have all seen the video, think that guy didn't feel comfortable ahead of time with his abilities?) My point, do what you feel is best, make the decision that feels good to you, but if something happens and you have not attempted to be a better driver, don't get upset when the internet bashes you to death...

I infer from your posts that you are a tool. I hope I am wrong!:party-smiley-004:

BTW, I received an email from the man himself out of the blue last night - I had written in to the general mailbox some time ago when the class scheduled for Sandusky, Ohio cancelled to find out when it would be rescheduled. He wrote to tell me he is putting a class together for next spring and to invite me to participate. And he didn't infer that I would suck if I didn't!!! Class act!

I've been called worse...:thankyouthankyou:

I guess I can be considered a tool, they are a mechanism used for fixing problems. And I hope that regardless of what people think of my brashness, they will take the time to consider what is important and better their abilities. That will help in fixing the current problem some have: lack of knowledge and safety habits.

A few weeks ago, after the "Fountain accident" we watched from our deck, people come and go from our cove (we are in a very popular cove, 50-100 boats come and go on a regular basis on a weekend day), In the 1/2 hour I watched , I would say only maybe 1 or 2 boats were wearing Jackets when they went to go on plane, and don't get me started on where many boats decelerated or took off in the cove, in comparison to the other boats, docks etc... And this IS NOT just performance boaters I am referring too. Safety is more than just getting on the throttles or turning.

Our sport is under attack from legislators to help protect us from ourselves, the more we do to help ourselves, the less it will get shoved down our throats by legislation.

Bajaholic , You look good since you quit drinking .

Scary part is I have never drank, done drugs or smoked. Just worked all the time and take things too seriously apparently... I guess I don't see the issue in wanting to be safer and/or a better boater.

We have lost a number of Performance Boaters in the last few years, many of whom had experience far greater than many of us will ever achieve, yet some feel that their being able to own the boat, work the throttles and drive qualifies as vast experience. I guess until one actually takes a course, whether it be driving a car, motorcycle, aircraft or boat, they will not see or understand the value.


Mark my words: Our sport is under attack from legislators to help protect us from ourselves, the more we do to help ourselves, the less it will get shoved down our throats by legislation.

Just a general question and not geared towards anyone particular, but how many people or boaters on a poker run or in your general boating area do you see looking over there bow or to the side of their boat when they are getting on plane ??

And the first thing they will do is require us to take a "course" or get a "license". That way they can register or mark everyone who has this type of boat.

The same way they do everything else. So only thing your helping with these rants are the "man".

The Navy has spent millions of dollars training my peers and I to fly F18s worth $60 million each. Unfortunate events still happen on occasion! Sometimes it's mechanical failure and more often then not it is pilot error. Just because you have years of experience and expert schooling doesn't mean you are immune to screwing up. It's all about knowing the capabilities and limits of your equipment.

I myself can not afford to attend a performance boat handling school, but I am confident in my skill and knowledge from years of boating. If something happens I will only blame myself.

As a highly trained aviator who has experienced speeds well over 1200 mph, I find it absurd when people make comments about others who "should've had training."

I have plenty of friends who have funged it away even after years of training. Some of them are no longer with us.

CLA: I am not totally disagreeing with you, but what you consider a rant I consider discussion in a boating forum to protect our sport.

If legislation becomes eminent in taking a class to operate, what do you think will happen to the cost of the courses, the cost of the license and then the ability to tax you on a yearly basis to keep it up to date? Personally I doubt that cost will go down...

If we are proactive, try to figure out a way of getting more educated operators, less accidents will happen, less press, less exposure, we will also get less noticed by those that want to protect us from ourselves. So being "the man" is not being "the boy".

DIVERKR, I agree, accidents do happen, training is what keeps the less severe ones from becoming severe.

Again the cost.... I would think for a few hundred dollars (the cost of less than one tank of fuel) most people could find a instructor to give the proper training on their specific boat. I have noticed in the people responding, some have straight bottoms, and are smaller length boats. This is not a negative at all, but as you add power,(multiple engines)length, stepped bottom, speed, etc, all the learning changes. That is why continuing education is important. If you want to step into the "full course" that is where you need to make a decision as to your level of comfort and what you want to achieve.

In my own experience, I thought I was a pretty good driver, have been around boats my entire life, and owned numerous ones for 25+ years. I can tell you flat out the course was an eye opening experience, and that after taking the course I am MUCH better with my skills. My co-pilot/wife was NOT keen on the money I spent, I took the advanced course, but afterwards, she too commented how much smoother our operation was and she too felt more confident when we were in rough water because she knew I had the additional training.

And as I stated earlier, the smoother operation, translates to less wear on parts, specifically drives/props etc. Less breakage, less cost overall.

Unhappy customers?
 

I was just wondering how many people have taken this course over the years and felt it was not a good value regardless of cost?

Buy a cat and you will learn about cost. I have never owned a v bottom only cats on my 5th one. I'm sure Tres is a great instructor but don't you think he would LOVE Markel to require a course for all cat owners? Damn right he would! $2500 a pop. I'm not talking trash, but I own a business and my goal is to make a profit. I'm sure he is the same. Hell I was afraid to file a small claim on my hotrod with Hagerty because I wanted my record clean for the boat....lol

I think most guys boating at a high level are proactive, safe, and doing the right thing. You don't?

[QUOTE=bajaholic;3780005]Scary part is I have never drank .

Well then you need to start . Learn how to relax before you give yourself a stroke . Now sit down with a libation and read this and understand . I have known men that have been welders all their life but yet they can not weld . I have known men that can run an underground mining machine yet they can not operate one . Unfortunately there are many that can not read what a machine is telling them because they simply do not have the skills needed . Can these skills be learned you asked ? Some of it can , some of it comes with experience but some people just do not have the God given talent or feel to truly operate anything at a high performance level . When i bought my cat i sought out the guy's that had many years of experience flying this hull type to teach me . From there i went on experimenting to find all the known and unknown edges of my particular cat so as not to be caught off guard when water conditions or traffic dictated a particular maneuver . In the right water conditions i can pin your head to your shoulder or powerslide a turn , neither are recommended but yes i can do it and have many times . You either have a feel for machinery or you do not . That my friend can not be taught ! I have met many a man that could do anything with his mouth and absolutely nothing with his hands . the deep http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ep/soapbox.gif

[QUOTE=the deep;3780070]I like this!:eekdrop:

I have had boats my entire life, flatbottoms / daycruisers/ Jet boats.
When i got the Cigarette i decided that it might be a good idea to take the course. plus saving some money on insurance is never a bad thing.

What i didn't expect was how much i would learn. If you are running a straight bottom boat then a lot of the class will be a waste but if you have a step boat or cat then it is a must.

It would really be hard to describe all the info that you receive but even now years after taking the class i find myself thinking back to what Tres said during certain situations. You get a huge amount of data from him and it did seem overwhelming at times but i truly believe that it made me a safer driver.

If you have the money to buy a performance boat then to say you can't afford the class is nonsense. kind of like buying a race bike but can't afford a good helmet. You really need to look at your priorities.
and to say that you know the limits of your boat and will stay under that is a fantasy, Hell Tres has been thrown from his boat but that is how he can sit there and tell you what to look for before you get that far.

I think Brad just wanted to let people know about the upcoming classes, not start a big debate about nothing!

BINGO, we have a winner! You went to someone to show you the correct way to start. That is the point. You think I am arguing, I am not. Just pointing out what everyone deep down already knows, learning is important. I love it when a plan comes together...

Yea, and he probably built a friendship. That's what hotrod stuff is really about!

So why not just put everything that's in this class in a nice youtube channel for all the performance boat owners? Would that not help our sport more than anything? That's what I would do if I had all that knowledge.

When a kid comes over to my house to get some help with a header install or a nitrous kit I don't charge him anything. I teach him how to do things correctly. You know like real gearheads used to do.

Do it for free , what a concept . Most of us here are greedy capitalist pigs . :lolhit::lolhit::party-smiley-004:

You my friend are a good man and yes there are still some of us real gearheads around . I rarely find more amusement than hovering over a friends bilge admiring the masterpiece he built with his own two hands .