Must be a cool job!

Wondering if the marine motors are put through the same type of testing.


Rick

If you are so informed with auto research then you should be fair enough to marine also. While a car will never see the detonation loads a boat always does the demands are not equal, thus, the engines are not equal.

As you said, "OEM engines are built cheap". Why is that? Of course it is because the analysts cut costs to max the bottom line so engineers have less budget to work with. Testing answers the eternal criticism of expense of "over engineering" against longevity for warranty claims sake. Everyone who builds, tests. Some think their tests are the best. The end user is the determining factor. Mercury has had a rash of claims on that premise even after all their testing.

To be fair in both worlds there are the budget line models and then the high end models. The budget line stuff in marine might compare with auto more so because those engines are built with cheap materials, just like the budget auto's. As I said before, the "performance" marine engines are more comparable with the highest end product that auto makes in their own performance flavor and bragging rites and you know those aren't cheap built either.

Lets also be certain to mention a common lake boat is not built on an LS1, LS6 or any best of the best comparisons.

Most marine engines blowing XR drives off are doing just that, running WOT with the throttles pinned to the dash. Many marine engines spend their life at WOT. I really wonder how you could say marine engines don't see the same level.

I am not educated enough to toss a coin in this pot, however, When you say marine engines live there lives at " WOT " are speaking of offshore racing, or all? My boat rarely sees WOT, I live around 45 - 50, just visit WOT now and again...

Your knowledge on motors is AWSEOME ! So this is not me questiong you, just asking.


Rick

If one does the WOT thing in a car the driving award that follows can be a problem for insurance, job, wallet etc. In a boat there is nothing to prevent the operator from doing the WOT thing. Especially in a fun run, poker run, hot boat hang outs so that is where the engine is going to get wrung out. Look at a bass tournament shoot out and other water events that are not specifically sanctioned events but the boats are run to the max and still some are blowing on the back of the windshield to get just one more mph out of it. :lolhit:

The smaller the boat engine is the harder it is going to get run because the human tendancy is always, just a little more. My first boat spent a great deal of it's life at WOT because I was trying to keep up with bigger stuff. The little GMC four banger was a trooper too. :whistle: But racing of course and performance boating especially will see WOT on a regular basis and some a great deal. Just let a buddy try to pass you and it is throttles on the dash.

My career has surrounded internal combustion of most every type; gas, diesel, natural gas, propane, alternates, blended and elect installations. I am certified, certifiable too :lolhit:, in most all of these engine types and control systems and have been trained by all of the big three in their engine technologies. I love the technology and it just fuels me more in learning and the challenges that go with it. One thing has changed with me though. When I am cut, as one interviewer called it, I don't bleed oil......I bleed water. :whistle: I started off in the auto side and now I am immersed in my hobby; boats. All this is not to brag it is an expectation of my performance in my work. I'm sure you are well versed in your career and could teach me things that are common to you.

That is some funny stuff!!!! You are deffinatley right about one thing, I nalit every time my buddy's try to go around me, even acted like I was blowing on the windshield a few times when doing it, haha!

I enjoy reading your post, always knowledge, never bs !!

Rick

I try to help people to understand technical things to advance a job or progress on a project all the time so I hope I can help technically and accurately with my hobby too. I love boats, except blow boats because they always have the right of way :angry-smiley-038:, so I try especially to help a boater buddy. I have preferences but technology is not subject to anyone's bias and some will present their bias as a technological fact and it misleads others. When I don't have skin in the game it is sometimes comical to watch but I still try to be clear with objective facts.

Doing hydraulic work is pretty surprising to see the cost of hoses and equipment in that area too and performance boats usually have at a minimum two systems that are going to be hydraulic and usually more. So hydraulics is another area of expense on a performance boat where a common lake boat will only have one hydraulic function such a drive trim and if it has power steering then hydraulic assist for that. The more hydraulics a boat has the more rigging and labor is involved to build it.

It's awesome you take the time to share what you know, I'm a hunting guide so I cant give much advice to the boating community!! Haha

Rick

Haha... Well thank ya Sir!


Rick

OK show just me one non GM built marine engine that has lasted 520 hours at wot? most won't make 520 hours with 90% of the time under 3k and 10% at wot. My point is that is the type of testing that O.E. do.

The ones on the left cost a lot to maintain. The one on the right cost way more.

I don't have marine data of testing. Do you have auto data for testing? I don't know what Indmar does, Ilmor does, Volvo does or Merc etc does but I don't agree with the idea that marine has to do the same tests that auto does.

Sure the O.E. will test as you say and when another packager, if we can call them that, uses the product then the test does not have to be done again since the data has already been recorded. All of the test data will be used by engineers/builders for determining performance parameters. For example a cast internal bbc will have a marine limit of 4800rpm but a forged internal engine will have a higher rpm limit based on the material strength of the components used. If a dimple rod forged crank motor built for a Vette is tested for the data and that same set up is put in a boat then the comparisons are the same. When the marine world uses that block or heads but changes everything else inside they already have the test data from the tests you mentioned so testing over again is redundant. Marine is going to test the areas they don't have data for but that doesn't mean the testing of either one is better or that marine does not test. Rather it is different for the needs of the industry.

I read somewhere that Mercury test their supercat racing engines for 24 hrs @ 7000 rpm try that with a chevy

Haha!! Your a lucky man if the one on the right lets you have those twins on the left!!


Rick

ROFL
I've always heard, it's cheaper to keep her.

Good point.

Merc predominately uses the Chevy product design and since, as I understand, Merc bought GM's BBC program out they have test data that they can use and build on that to apply stresses from water and displacement detonation, shock load etc. Running a test stand engine gives one set of data but the data loggers used in the actual racing event will give some of the best test data since it is gathered in an actual racing event of max stress levels and all the variations that go with it.

The supercats are Dart blocks with all the goodies inside

That Dart pic looks like the siamesed version. Very nice. Merc doesn't use a wet sump for racing as in your pic do they?

Here they are in the race boat
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/i.../22912_1-1.jpg

Yes they are dry, I converted mine to wet. Here is a photo when they were in my 32' Velocity, It was a 100MPH ride but you had to clean the poop out of your drawers when you got thru. I have since added Whipple 3.3's for the 35' Ocean express the photo with the blowers.

I sold a pair of valve covers just like the ones in the second pic on ebay and now I wish I didn't. They would not clear for stock exhaust manifolds but then again that was a foolish notion anyway trying to use a full tall cover with anything other than performance exhaust, silly me.


Anyway the twins pic reminds me of another obvious point getting back to the thread. Most performance boats have twin engine installations which is twice the price for power. Get a boat with triples in it and the price includes an additional power package. Wow what a deal, I should buy boats with triples so I can get more engines for one price. :lolhit:

When heads cost 2 to 7 grand a set by themselves, clearly, the price will be high.

I think you missed the whole point of my post. Most people, clearly including you are completely ignorant on what the OE's do in the testing world. I will agree 100% with you that no car will ever be exposed to that loads like a boat, but who said they don't test them that way in development? On another note, the OE's would be completely stupid if they didn't test a truck engine that is subjected to high loads with heavy trailers, temperature changes, rpm changes, and load shocks just like a boat - as the truck motors are held to a higher standards than a typical motor as well.

I would never hesitate to take a crate LS7 engine, or equilvelent Ford engine and throw them in a boat with some minimal changes.

Just to note, here is just a touch what I found on youtube of just some of the testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-LhVKIM8E8



Now I am taking nothing away from Merc, but I can promise you that the OE has some of the best testing facilities around, in which I would imagine Merc outsources some work to them as well.

In the end, all your paying Merc for is the name and a HP number associated with it - no more and no less. Anyone can throw money at an engine, overbuild it, and make a assload of power.

For those of us in the marine industry, a common occurrence is to be questioned by customers about auto vs. marine parts. A common scenario is to have a customer ask for a replacement part for his boat. The part in question is a starter for a 350 cu.in. GM block. You give the customer a price, and he looks at you with a blank look on his face. He, then states (very angrily) "I can get one at the local auto retailer for $29.95".

In the marine industry, this little scenario occurs all the time. Many boaters are unaware of the difference between an automotive and a marine engine and their respective accessories. The most notable differences include the exhaust systems, the cooling systems, the electrical systems, and the fuel systems. Additionally, items such as heads and cams are usually different. For the purpose of this thread, we will only be hitting the highlights on select systems.

In regard to the cooling systems, one of the major differences is found in the water-circulating pump. This is especially noticeable when you have a raw water cooled engine. Unlike their automotive counterpart, a marine pump works in an open cooling system. This type of system is extremely corrosive to the pump. Therefore, the pump must be altered for longevity. A marine pump has a special ceramic seal, stainless steel backing plate, and a bronze impeller to resist corrosion. An automotive style pump, with its stamped steel impeller, would fail due to corrosion in a short time.

The electrical systems in a marine application are also extremely specialized. In an automobile, any gasoline vapors that accumulate will readily dissipate through the bottom of the engine compartment. However, a boat with its sealed engine compartment, does not have that luxury. Therefore, any spark could literally cause a boat to explode. All electrical components in a boat are either completely sealed or specially vented to prevent such a catastrophe. This includes the starter, alternator, distributor, and many other engine electrical components.

Carburetors typically have what is known in the industry as J type fuel bowls. These allow for the extreme vibration, pitching and yawl experienced on boats. This allows fuel to be drawn in extreme conditions and keeps fuel from being ejected from the carburetor barrels.

Heads and cams are set up for a completely different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Think of it this way:
You get in your car
Start it up
Drive to the highway
Put your foot to the floor and hold it there for an hour
Its a little different, well for most of us.

Although we have only briefly touched on some of the differences between an automotive and marine application; hopefully, it will serve to remind us that there is a difference, and that the reasons for these differences need to be shared with our customers and friends in the boating community. Hopefully, when shared, this information can eliminate some of the "blank stares" in regards to parts, and maybe prevent some dangerous situations.

1 hour at 95% throttle isn't much of a torture test in my book.. Hell thats a trip home from the bar!

Granted, the load test is impressive and the deep freeze to high heat stuff is cool but has no use in the marine world.

[QUOTE=POWERPLAY J;3836694]I have no idea what the dealer costs are in the HP motors, say, from 525 up. But I do know that in the recreational boat market, it's fairly easy to see the markups. I've seen a standard 5.7 MPI with B3 package vary Wildly from one brand to another. I've also seen an upgrade price of $5,000 and more just from a 5.0 MPI to a 5.7. If you go to buy these packages yourself, you'll see that buying a 5.7 versus a 5.0 is not an expensive upgrade.

Since the Mer racing engines are far lower volume, I'd expect there's a lot of play in pricing. I wouldn't think any manufacturer would leave out some additional margin in any of the motors. I'd want to make some more cash from a 525 to a 700 or more, not just "passing on the cost".

What I find amazing is how cheap some boats can be when offered without power. No matter what the hull is, they do seem to be very inexpensive relative to a new boat's cost.

Awfully bold position to come in here and and tell everyone you know more than them. Guess it is obvious why I missed your point.

You didn't seem too supportive or wise when you judge "most everyone here" who are far your superior in their experience, knowledge, contribution and legend of this industry and competition. I am not saying I am one of those people but there are many here who are and you owe them respect because I guarantee you will have questions, in time, in boating that will require their resources.
One open contradiction is to say you take nothing from Merc and then state anyone can build power. There are some shoes here that you could never fill in your life time of playing catch up and I think some respect is due on your part with better chosen words. Maybe then I would not "miss your point" and you would not appear reckless.
I already stated I have training form all of the big three. Yes that training includes test standards for certain engine designs but I would not discuss that info on the level you came in on.

This is a boating website, you have a boat, show some support.
Happy boating to you.

Good points. Good post.

I don`t know about anyone else but I used to beat the crap out of my sports cars way more than I do to any boat.
My boats mostly see about 3500-4K rpms and easy does it up there.... WOT every so often for a short period of time.

MY LS1 I used to romp on most stop lights and take it to the max on the highway.. mostly cause there wasn`t some weak ass Bravo based drive behind my Trans AM

Great post! I would have never known any of this. I am the guy with the blank stare when prices are givin to replace a part, or fix one! It's not just the parts that get you, the labor is a killer too!!

Too true! My vett and I where always in a race!!! I was mucher harder on that car than I would ever consider with by Baja!!

This all has me wondering more and more....

How is it no1 has jumped in to compete against Merc?, build a package for a lot less ! It happens in every other market.

Same could be asked bout bravo outdrives...

I could only imagine the amount of money that could be made, and saved!!

It will probably happen, and unfortunately it will be most likely be Japanese.

+1 !!!!!!!!!!!

Probably true! But I don't believe the impact would be the same. There might be a lot of differences when it comes to brand loyalty, I think they are referred to as " flag wavers " but I know without a doubt that we are all " flag wavers " when it omes to the good OL USA !!

Decals.

Most of us will use a reputable custom engine builder for our engines. They can build as much HP is Merc at a much reduced rate. Although still pricey not even close to a Merc price especially 700HP and beyond. Imco has the drive competition.

I was lucky in my purchase, the boat I wanted, with the bonus power!! There is no doubt if I ever change, it will be done by a custom builder, probably Eddie Young!!

Who's Eddie? :) Oh yea, that guy you can call at 02:00 to leave a message and he answers the phone still at the shop, sleeps with a 7200 RPM soundtrack at full volume beside his bed and uses a Whipple Supercharge for a pillow..That Guy?