Lake Cumberland and the Blame Game
 

I have my opinions on what looks like caused last weekends tragedy (judging by the tape I saw) and I have opinions on how close some of the boats seemed to be running to the parked boats, but since I wasn't there and didn't witness each situation first hand, I'll keep my mouth shut. Rather than come on OSO and "motherf*ck" each other by pointing the finger at whom did what wrong and otherwise insulting and pizzing each other off, why not allow our collective genius figure out the problems we can solve and then solve them as best we can. I'm all for open dialog but not if it isn't productive.

Things we cannot fix:

Stupidity
Arrogance
Ego
The ability to purchase unlimited power and speed

One thing we can solve- the blow-overs that continue to kill people. We've lost 5 highly regarded and talented people in the past 2-years by my count. All to the same "problem" that is inherent with these boats and is a relatively simple fix. Design, engineering, prototyping, R&D all cost money, and I certainly am not an aerodynamicist, but common sense tells me that once the solution is developed, these "accidents" would be much less common than they are now.

Asking people to follow rules works for most but not all (refer to things we cannot fix). But having a device that can stop the blow-over without human input or reaction, I think its pretty simple. It will not fix the roll-over or the collision or the inexperience and stupidity of the drivers, but it solves a huge issue and saves lives. Why not start a discussion about how this could be pulled off.

well i think its more than a simple fix. you cant just put wheelie bars on a cat. Go stand in your yard during a wind storm with a 4x8 sheet of plywood balanced on top of your head and tilt it up a little and see what you can do to prevent it from blowing backwards. at that kind of speed these guys are running they are like a plane ready to leave the ground. all it takes is a little wing tip and speed and up up and away you go. ive been in a cat at 145mph and its a pretty smooth ride due to the amount of air its packing and lack of hull still in the water. they are amazing pieces of machinery but at those speeds your flirting with disaster

I'm not an expert in any way but have my experience with running a cat fast. Not quite sure how to word this or if its appropriate but i guess this is as good a time and place as any. In the last ten years as i have found myself in groups of faster boaters and racers i have been around and witnessed my share of accidents and incidents. I have kept a quiet tally on prop rotation in boats that have gone over as i believe it is a big factor here. Nearly all the boats (if not all) were spinning in. This is not new news though, after we tried spinning in on the Wahoo Super Stock cat and went swimming after one lap i started to really pay attention more and looked into it. I believe Rich Luhrs (T2X) was a big proponent that tried to even outlaw spinning in on racing cats. When i read that somewhere i started to really realize that generally spinning in was a bad idea. The action of spinning props out tends to correct a boat that is near out of control and pulls the boat back down and flat while spinning in tends to cause the boat to pull the bottom out from under itself and become more violent. Spinning in also causes increased bow lift, couple that with wake crests from adjacent boats you are trying to overtake, tunnel volume is decreases causing higher air compression and even more lift enabling the bow to rise to the point of no return. A lot of guys just arent aware of this and my thoughts are just based on some personal experience as well as some observations. If any one could add to this with personal experiences please do so.

most people know me on here and know that i rarely jump into heated debates but i do feel strongly about this and if this thread can stay on track and as a source of education and information exchange then it will help all of us.

one other thing, I have seen repeated posts blaming boats crossing in front of the poker run fleet and i feel that this is absolutely the wrong direction to point blame. People, these are not closed course events and it is no ones responsibility to stay out of our way. A vast majority of boaters out there are not in any sort of loop that would alert them of any sort of event going on. They are every day boaters maybe just out on the lake for a day with the kids, why would they or should they know about it. Again these are not closed events and there is nothing that dictates right of way other the simple rules of the road navigation. If a person chooses to go a hundred and fifty miles an hour on an open public water way it is his sole responsibility to put the safety of others first. Some of the videos i have seen do not support this but i was not there, the clip of the red red Skater cutting in between the two anchored boats looked irresponsible but again i do not know what the situation was as i was not there.

No way you would get a Boat Builder to install any kind of moving wing. The first time the thing doesn't work correctly they get sued and even if it works but doesn't prevent a blow over they get sued for it not preventing it. Hell if the thing works fine and somebody stuffs it then they get sued because somebody says that it caused the stuff. The Spinning In prop issue would be worth looking into but I am guessing that spinning in makes the boats run faster and that is why most everybody does it that way. Don't remember Tres talking about that in School. I think what might solve some of these recent PR accidents is to Charge a higher entry fee to the first couple groups (+120 MPH boats) and then use that money to hire Patrol Boats to close off a couple (for just an hour or so) of designated large wide open areas during the Poker Run that could be used to run fast. The rest of the run and day is limited to a certain speed. These fast areas need to be wide open parts of a lake. The Poker Runs I have been in are always in areas that don't provide enough width for the amount of boats running side by side except for a few exceptions were the lake opens up. That is the only place I feel conmfortable running fast. I usually end up on one extreme side or the other (ie: no boats to one side of us - doesn't always work out) so that I have room to bail out if need be. I don't run with the front runners so it is easier for me to make the choice to back out of the throttle if need be knowing I am not loosing anything.

This one...or the other ones?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NGi5yU0FOs

Had not seen that one, jeezsus . . . thats nuts. Theres a kid like ten feet away. wtf? I realize people come out to spectate but is that really necessary? Musta been REAL close to that blue Baja off to the left in the beginning of the clip.

Man, the more videos I see of this run, the more I can not believe the risks that are being taken.

exactly !!!!!

Sad to say but that was Jeff and Brad and another boat coming way to close !!!

correct on the faster but I'm not really sure by how much i suppose in a spec class enough to make a differance, when speaking of prop rotation in the pits you will often hear the term "spin it to win". I also think spinning gives the boat a lighter feel and a false sense of better control. On the Talon cat i raced we always spun the props out and it actually seemed to handle better the faster you went. The boat ran very flat and i think that a lot of poker runners would not like that. We slid the boat several times at over a hundred and i just put the throttles in the kitchen and you could feel the tail of the boat settle right down and keep the boat upright.


again i have always kept it to myself over the years but a vast majority of the cats i have seen go over were spinning in, the only one that was spinning props out was Tomcat in Cambridge about six years ago but i remember seeing skeg damage leading me to think they struck something. The broken skeg airates the prop badly. I have had that happen as well and i knew something was wrong because i could not keep the engines off the limiters no matter how light a was on the throttles.

I don't think that there is anything that can effectively be added to a boat such as a wing or flaps to stop a blow over. I am no expert here, but isn't the reason for a tunnel is to pack air at speed and lift the hull out of the water ??? We have all seen how fast it happens and I see no way to stop it at the speeds it is happening at.

Damn that was close to those boats. I was always under the assumption that you had to be so many yards away from an anchored vessel. I'd guess those boats were inside of 7 yards or less. Common sense seems to be lacking in some instances.

Dave, I agree that if this thread stays on track, collectively we may stumble on something. As for the spins, yeah, that's a problem as well. How to address it, I have no idea. But the blow-overs are what have killed the people and that just is something that can be solved. As for the comment from bripar 77 questioning the validity of a manufacturer using something like this because of being sued? Aren't they getting sued anyway? Besides, the device would record its own movements and move only as far as would be needed to bring the boat back to earth, not slam the front of the boat down to a point of it subbing.

Self policing and self control will work for the majority on both the participant and spectator sides but unfortunately there will be some that screw it up and as I said before you cant fix stupid, etc

Damn i think the water patrol can see from the videos of how close these guys were coming and instead of ruining it for everyone go back thru these videos and start writing tickets for breaking the rules, it clearly says something to the matter of slow speeds to non moving or slow craft yes its off topic from the death of two individuals but if they did that in the beginning we may be sitting here enjoying the poker run pics instead of mourning the death of brad and jeff.

I will stay out of this debate. :-)

I know there are some sensitive issues going on with loss of life here...but closing your eyes to this kind of boating is the same as condoning it. I've seen at least three videos that show some of the most irresponsible boating I have ever seen. At the speeds these guys are traveling, there is absolutely no way they could see someone floating on a life jacket, 15 feet of their transom before its too late. I am mind boggled that there aren't more people on this forum shouting out about this. If this is how they run on this poker run, they need to shut it down now!

3 deaths in less than 5 years.......all high speed cats at LC............ There is no way this run will be put on next year. The more spectator videos I watch the more convinced that place is totally out of hand.

I guess my thoughts are that the added bow lift cause by spinning in along with crossing the crest of a wake can decrease tunnel volume giving higher tunnel compression adding to lift. In general spinning in has the ability to introduce some bad situations across many levels. Blow overs were only about a quarter of the events i have chalked to memory and about half were race and half poker runs. Its been rattling around my head for a while and hope to get others input. I agree whole heatedly self policing is very important here as well.

Unfortunately I think this is what will happen. Locally there was very strong talk after Kevin passed away during the 09 run of it being the end of the LC Poker Run. Now after this accident I think it will be done away with for good.

Too bad because we have one of the prettiest lakes in the country and its by far the greatest weekend of the year.

It's tragic that two people, were killed doing something they love to do. It's definitely not a manufacture problem , but driver error, that's the only way you stuff or go over backwards , lets slow down a bit and pay attention to water conditions , and maybe let you competitor go buy so you can live another day, peace.

I've been thinking a lot about the accident. Every body says poker runs are open course and there corect. But spectators don't come to see these big boats putt around they come to watch them go fast. So why is there never a closed course race on Friday or sunday ? Put a speed limit on the poker run but let there be a place where everybody can stretch there legs I think it would make for a more compete weekend it wouldn't be hard to break the registered boats up into a few classes and let them race on a course that has the proper safety crews on sight even make everybody pass a submersible test of some kind that morning I'm sure there's a reason they don't but it seems to me like it would solve a lot of problems keeping everybody safer at the poker run but not taking away there chance to show off there boats and power

I hate to say it but its, all about the Money!! That weekend brings millions into the economy.. The only way the accidents will stop is if everyone involved including the spectator boats start doing what's right.. Put all the ego's aside and start practicing safe boating! That's my opinion!

In one of the videos that shows the 2 cats just feet away from spectators is absolutely crazy stupid!!! Then the one of Pure Platinum taking the line to just try and manuever to get ahead of the other boat is even more stupid!!

Come on we all know what the answer is how do we in force it?

I was at LC in 09 when Kevin was killed and seen him and his friend at the dock when the paramedics where working on them and that is something engraved in my mind. I have been to the last 3 of the 5 years and refuse to run in or ride with someone. Lc is a great lake and has a great poker run but the traffic on this weekend is out of control. The problem I see is the ego takes over and the brain shuts off and most of the people I no are guilty of this and that's the reason I won't ride . The other issue I see is most of the spectators weight to long before they leave the dock. Hopefully the poker run does not get shut down but after watching some of the vids things have gotten out of hand

Not having ever been in a 140MPH boat such as these, it scares the daylights out of me to think we, your, our families could be spectators with the kids swimming and one these crazy guys went blowing through our raft area...Our thoughts and prayers with the families and all their loved ones. " Lord Guide Us"....

I was told years ago after the lc poker run was over all the fast boats would go down by the dam and air them out.

Self policing and common sense will only work for some but very few. Adding some sort of stabilizing canard to cats won't happen because of liability to the maker of the idem and the boat builder. After viewing all of the vids posted and knowing it is NOT a closed course the pokerrun community needs to step up and accept responsibility, plain and simple! Every year we read or post on threads pertaining to an accident that resulted in death or serious body injury yet changes are NOT made. After reading the posts and some of the cavalier attitudes I am thoroughly disgusted! To say men died doing what they loved or **** happens and if you don't like it stay home are a thing of the past. Why are we as a community willing to accept this? Boating in general is a beautiful sport/hobby and it is up to me, you and anyone with a boat to show the public how wonderful it is. Yet we continuously punch ourselves in the face and show off a black eye. And people here still wonder why performance boating is a dying pastime...

And herein comes one of the 'Unintended Consequence" issues, as Boatme can attest ... if you want to promote a (wink, wink nod, nod) "RACE" plus assuming all kinds of risk from any poker player who gets a hangnail, insisting on 'safety gear' is how you do it.

Mandating safety gear assumes that you are requiring competent gear: i.e. Snell SA2000+ helmet (no skateboard 'stubbies'), 16kg collared 'racing' vest, dead-man cord for every occupant, etc., which means they have to be inspected and approved prior, and DQ issued for any violation.

Will this make the organiser a 'partner' in the non-race, 'race?' Sure.
Will this raise the decibel level of WHINE to SCREECH? You know it.
Will this affect turnout? Oh, absolutely.

{important] ... Is a PokerRun that insists on safety gear insurable? Probably not. Insurance Companies insure Fish OR Fowl, but not both.

There are ways to turn down the recklessness of SxSxSxS 150mph running in a creek-arm, but mandating safety gear is not it.

ugh

Not hard to figure out why this tragic event happened after watching how close those boats came to spectators that were obviously anchored off to the sides. Brains and common sense were left at the docks and luckily only 2 men lost their lives.

Hi Smitty

Hawthorn Woods, I know the area well. Its going to be very nice up there soon with the cooler weather and fall colors. I disagree with you about adding a device that would control blow-overs. Obviously the idea behind a Cat is to pack air at speed to provide lift. The problem is when there is too much lift. There is no reason that existing technology could not solve this problem. There is hardware today that can read data and make physical tiny to huge adjustments by the millisecond. I'm not talking about something as primitive as a Nascar roof flap but more of a highly engineered device that works on many inputs of data per second. How its shaped, its size, where its located, how to dump or exhaust air are just a few of the questions. But basically the device would operate by the angle of the boat as it relates to whatever the point of no return is. The thing I've noticed about blow-overs is that when the actually get to the point of no return, they typically do it more slowly than once it reaches that point.

After seeing that 3rd video it kinda puts a new perspective on things... Obviously safety was not one of their concerns... For both boats....

it would cost as much as a space shuttle to have NASA engineering on a boat as which you describe. Bill Gates or the guys from Qatar would be the only ones running them

Why penalize the whole, when the videos clearly show a very few are responsible? Eliminating the top class do to the few that can't police themselves seems like a simple answer, on the surface. Sucks for the responsible top class runners though. I'd rather see 1 class eliminated than to loose them all, or more importantly, an innocent spectator.


But to try and give the top class guys a fair shake, are there any videos of the slower classes passing spectators at dangerously close distances?

Glass Dave, Johnny Saris and a few others (with actual racing experience) have said it and I agree 100%. You simply cannot safely run 150 MPH boats on an open (unsecured) course.

And as for "proper safety equipment," let's just say that no helmet and vest are going to save you when you blow over at 150 MPH. Very few actual race boats are built to withstand that kind of impact. Just ask the Team Geico guys. They know more about the subject than anybody else.

I have been boating & poker running on LC since I relocated here in 1998, and many years of experience previously, not just on Cumberland. While I didn't know Kevin, Brad or Jeff I do know that both runs on Lake Cumberland are managed, overseen, thought-out and governed by persons that are competent and knowledgeable about the "poker-run" scene, I know these persons personally. While it is truly unfortunate that a loss of life has happened it is none the less inevitable with this sport. Yes it is a sport. The organizers are not personally responsible for this tragic loss of life. The Coast Guard was on the water, a heavy presence of F&W was on the water and to me it was apperant that they made every attempt to keep some of the local idiots out of the way. They just cant do it all, there will always be someone that interferes on purpose or inadvertanetly. The Cruiser we all see in the video was IMO to close to the course, F&W missed them, or they moved closer after a F&W patrol passed. These things we cannot control. Stupidity and inexperience go hand in hand. Kevin, Brad and Jeff all had the right to run as fast as they wanted and felt comfortable with. They are gone but not forgotten, we all must realize that this is a dangerous sport/activity, we all love it and desire to not see it regulated out of existence. I don't see any reason why this event like all others like it will not come back next year. If I have any voice in the matter then it will stay.

I've been boating for more than 50 years, 40 of them in boats with too much horsepower. I've never done anything stupid on the water ( I will have some bridges for sale after the show)
I remember back when I was younger there were a lot of people that did dumb **** out in front of my boat. I started looking farther out in front of me.
The next time someone did something dumb in front of me, I just moved my viewing point farther out.
Now, at my age I'm looking farther out than I can see clearly, thats weird, there's nobody doing dumb **** in front of me now.
The responsibility when I'm driving a boat, for my family, my friends, your family and friends, other people on the water is mine.

the device already exists, it's called the "throttles" the person operating them needs to do it properly

I've been around this sport / hobby for a whole lot of years, done a whole bunch of Poker Runs and Fun Runs and IMO you can wrap this deal up any way you want, high tech anti blow over control and all the brainiac chit you can muster up will not stop an event such as this from happening. One thing, and one thing only will put such a sad outcome in the past, Learn how to back it down!!!

A man needs to know his limitations! Needs to know when enough is enough!

I've blown one over, stuffed another, walked away to run another day, Every time it was pizz poor thinking on MY part that caused the problem. Folks need to get off finger pointing at the cause here. Poor judgement here, simple as that, may their souls rest in eternal peace.

I was down there as a spectator this year and found out about the accident late in the day at Harmon creek. Awful what happened but after watching these two videos countless times, its a miracle no one else was hurt or killed. All 3 of these cats in the two videos were obviously racing all out and took too many chances. The boat behind Jeff/ Brad in the first video almost looks like he had to split the boat filming and that blue baja. What on earth were they thinking? I feel awful for Brad and Jeff but something has to be done. I'll be pretty upset if this (and other poker runs for that matter) get ruined because of drivers not using common sense.

RIP to Brad and Jeff and prayers to their families, friends and employees. Everyone has been sending well wishes to their families and loved ones (understandably) but I really hope both of their respective businesses can continue on. Just awful what happened, for everyone involved.

Stu Jones from the Florida Powerboat Club was at my office today and we had the very same conversation. I was amazed to find out this event is in no way is an organized event but more a "free for all" sponsored by the "State Dock", whatever that may be. Jackie did say, however, it is the best dock party around.

Does anybody really believe everybody that lives on this beautiful lake is in tune with a poker run? Most could care less, I would imagine, and have low opinions of us simply based on jealousy and what we do.

Lastly, there is a video showing a boat crossing the path of these boats. This guy didn't cause the incident. The driver's in the cats, refusing to pull back the throttles since egos and adrenaline were at WOT, did. The poor boater out on the lake more than probably had no idea how quickly these vessels were overtaking his craft. Anybody who thinks differently needs to find another hobby. Just because you have the most expensive, the baddest, the fastest doesn't make you a better man then the guy on a pontoon boat with a 20 year old Johnson strapped to the back. Instead maybe just a little more reckless.